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Manchester-Bury: Unique Electrification System

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Andy873

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I don't think it was that early
Tom Wrays chronology of the L&Y agrees. He found Manchester newspaper articles from 1916 saying that route had now been completed. There are also articles mentioning electrifying Manchester to Oldham and a line out of Blackpool.

If you go to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Society website and look for their "Virtual Machine" page (I think it's called) you'll find Tom's chronology of the L&Y - jump to 1915 / 16. it's an interesting but long read. And thanks the L&Y Society for making it available!
 
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What would the Bury line look like today - around 30 years on - if Metrolink had never happened?

I once indulged in an 'alternate history' thought experiment - whereby Manchester never adopted Metrolink, the Bury line was retained as a heavy rail suburban route and mused about how that route might have evolved today.

So, here's the background scenario . . .

- In the mid-1980s the Greater Manchester Council, GMPTE and BR looked into the future of the area's public transport.
- Rather than recommending a new Light Rail system (as they actually did), they concluded the future would be largely based around improved bus travel.
- Existing suburban rail routes would be retained, get a bit of a tidy-up and some modest modernisation.
- Despite a future focused on buses, closing any existing railway lines was deemed politically unpalatable - as was de-electrifying any existing electric lines in favour of DMUs (so no 'Tyneside approach' and no Pacers to Bury).

All this means the Manchester - Bury route would be retained pretty much as it was around 1990, but life-expired rolling stock and other infrastructure would need to be replaced or modernised.

What trains would have replaced the 504s, and what would happen to the 1200V DC third rail?

Here are a couple of fantasy suggestions:-

(1) The line's electrical substations & signalling are modernised, but the 1200V system is retained. A new, small fleet of 2-car EMUs is introduced - Class 509 - based on the Class 456 which were built at York around this time. Painted orange & brown (of course) these were OPO, fitted with side-contact shoe gear, based at Bury Depot and were a more-or-less direct substitute for Class 504. This is about the most status quo option.

(2) Conventional top-contact third rail is installed and the traction current reduced to conventional 750V DC. A small fleet of Merseyrail's surplus Class 508s are transferred from storage at Birkenhead North depot - so no 'new' rolling stock required. Presumably these will be painted into GMPTE livery and based at a downgraded Bury stabling point. To save costs, the 508s may be hauled back to Birkenhead North from time to time for maintenance (this being before privatisation and break-up of BR into TOCs). Inevitably, sooner or later, a Merseyrail-liveried unit ends up being returned to the Bury Line, and/or a GMPTE-liveried 508 finds itself working somewhere on Merseyside.

(3) As (2) except it's surplus Class 313s transferred north, used in third rail mode. These are painted orange and hauled around Manchester to Longsight for periodic maintenance.

(4) With national standardisation in mind and a developing aversion to dangerous live rails, the Bury line is converted to 25kV. This gives access to different second-hand EMUs for this backwater - but maybe it's still surplus Class 313s, operating 'pan up'.
Knock-on effects of 25kV conversion are that the Collyhurst Tunnel proves troublesome for OHLE clearance, so Bury trains are diverted at Queen's Road Junction and part of the Cheetham Hill Loop is retained to run into the northern side of Victoria.
In the mid-1990s, when Victoria station is rationalised and re-built, the wires are extended westwards to Salford Crescent (well ahead of any main line electrification at Victoria) providing a cross-town connection to Salford University. Trains to/from Bury start / terminate at Salford Crescent and reverse in the sidings between the Atherton & Bolton lines.
Later, after the Chat Moss and Bolton lines are fully electrified in the 21st Century, the 25kV Bury line is available as a run-through destination for shorter-distance local trains, in the same way the electrified Stalybridge line will be.

Anyone else have any creative 'alternative history' to share?
</Crayon>
 
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Springs Branch

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Most likely the life-expired electrical equipment and rolling stock would have long since been binned off and the Bury line dieselised.
Sadly, that's the most likely 'real life' outcome (initially orange & brown Pacers grinding uphill to Bury on jointed track, the same way they did to Oldham & Rochdale).
But I was looking for any imaginative, crayon-textured options as to what might happen if the line just had to remain electric.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Sadly, that's the most likely 'real life' outcome (initially orange & brown Pacers grinding uphill to Bury on jointed track...
Didn't want to mention the dreaded 'P' word, but likely yes. At least, by the late 1980s, the Bury line was going to remain open, wasn't it, after having been considered for closure some 25 years earlier by Beeching.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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Another alternative history would be that 'Picc -Vic' went ahead (cancelled, incidentally, by an incoming Labour government) and we would have a comprehensive, electrified 'S Bahn' serving Greater Manchester. Radcliffe to Bolton would have been part of it. None of the nonsense of the Ordsall Curve - or the Windsor Link. Flyovers at Slade Lane Junction and Edgeley No. 2. Ah well...
 

Helvellyn

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What would the Bury line look like today - around 30 years on - if Metrolink had never happened?

I once indulged in an 'alternate history' thought experiment - whereby Manchester never adopted Metrolink, the Bury line was retained as a heavy rail suburban route and mused about how that route might have evolved today.

So, here's the background scenario . . .

- In the mid-1980s the Greater Manchester Council, GMPTE and BR looked into the future of the area's public transport.
- Rather than recommending a new Light Rail system (as they actually did), they concluded the future would be largely based around improved bus travel.
- Existing suburban rail routes would be retained, get a bit of a tidy-up and some modest modernisation.
- Despite a future focused on buses, closing any existing railway lines was deemed politically unpalatable - as was de-electrifying any existing electric lines in favour of DMUs (so no 'Tyneside approach' and no Pacers to Bury).

All this means the Manchester - Bury route would be retained pretty much as it was around 1990, but life-expired rolling stock and other infrastructure would need to be replaced or modernised.

What trains would have replaced the 504s, and what would happen to the 1200V DC third rail?

(2) Conventional top-contact third rail is installed and the traction current reduced to conventional 750V DC. A small fleet of Merseyrail's surplus Class 508s are transferred from storage at Birkenhead North depot - so no 'new' rolling stock required. Presumably these will be painted into GMPTE livery and based at a downgraded Bury stabling point. To save costs, the 508s may be hauled back to Birkenhead North from time to time for maintenance (this being before privatisation and break-up of BR into TOCs). Inevitably, sooner or later, a Merseyrail-liveried unit ends up being returned to the Bury Line, and/or a GMPTE-liveried 508 finds itself working somewhere on Merseyside.
</Crayon>
i think this might have been the most realistic option given it avoided any new rolling stock. A number of South East electrification schemes got their business cases through on that basis.

Whether in a parallel universe that is less opposed to third rail this sees more lines from Victoria electrified that way (Oldham, Rochdale) with a new fleet at that point is an interesting "what if".
 

Mr. SW

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Or: The line is deliberately run down, with a bad timetable. BR then states that no one is using the service and starts closure proceedings. Huge objections, including from the local councils. Line is closed early 1990s. PTE tries to get the line reinstated, but track is lifted and several bridges are swiftly removed because of 'Safety Issues'. Two station buildings are burnt down in "mysterious circumstances". PTE continues with pressure to reinstate. BR and DfT demand a feasibility study. Meanwhile the trackbed is converted into a cycleway or linear park. 25 years and three feasibility studies later, the reinstatement is heatedly discussed on an on-line rail forum.

EDIT: forgot to add that all the studies show a wildly positive BCR.
 
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Taunton

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What trains would have replaced the 504s, and what would happen to the 1200V DC third rail?

Here are a couple of fantasy suggestions:-

(1) The line's electrical substations & signalling are modernised, but the 1200V system is retained.

(2) Conventional top-contact third rail is installed and the traction current reduced to conventional 750V DC.

(3) As (2) except it's surplus Class 313s transferred north, used in third rail mode.

(4) With national standardisation in mind and a developing aversion to dangerous live rails, the Bury line is converted to 25kV.

Anyone else have any creative 'alternative history' to share?
</Crayon>
Here come the Mad Councillor suggestions

(5) "Should be converted to a monorail. Obviously one rail only costs half as much as two". Don't be silly, Councillor.

(6) "Should be converted to trams". Goodness, where do we get these people from. That's more ridiculous than a monorail ...
 
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edwin_m

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Here come the Mad Councillor suggestions

(5) "Should be converted to a monorail. Obviously one rail only costs half as much as two". Don't be silly, Councillor.

(6) "Should be converted to trams". Goodness, where do we get these people from. That's more ridiculous than a monorail ...
There was an article in Modern Railways sometime in the mid-60s promoting a monorail for Manchester. Not sure if it had any official standing and don't recall if Bury was included, but I believe its author (D Scott Hellewell) was later instrumental in the original Metrolink.
 

Merle Haggard

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There was an article in Modern Railways sometime in the mid-60s promoting a monorail for Manchester. Not sure if it had any official standing and don't recall if Bury was included, but I believe its author (D Scott Hellewell) was later instrumental in the original Metrolink.

I remember in the 1960s that Professor (of Engineering) Braithwaite (think that's the right name & spelling) from Manchester University was frequently on television promoting 'maglev' as the solution to every public transport problem. Surprised they only went for a monorail, doesn't seem that innovative by comparison ...
 

norbitonflyer

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I remember in the 1960s that Professor (of Engineering) Braithwaite (think that's the right name & spelling) from Manchester University was frequently on television promoting 'maglev' as the solution to every public transport problem. Surprised they only went for a monorail, doesn't seem that innovative by comparison ...
Prof Eric Laithwaite. Later of Imperial College London, where I met him a couple of times
 

Merle Haggard

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Prof Eric Laithwaite. Later of Imperial College London, where I met him a couple of times

Thanks for the correction, I remember now! I wonder whether he was subject to prejudice because of his accent - it was still the days of R.P. and the 'establishment'. The only Maglev I can think of was the Birmingham International station to airport link, its promise was't fulfilled commercially.
 

Trackman

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Another alternative history would be that 'Picc -Vic' went ahead (cancelled, incidentally, by an incoming Labour government) and we would have a comprehensive, electrified 'S Bahn' serving Greater Manchester. Radcliffe to Bolton would have been part of it. None of the nonsense of the Ordsall Curve - or the Windsor Link. Flyovers at Slade Lane Junction and Edgeley No. 2. Ah well...
Ah well.. Indeed.
Wonder what it would look like today, no doubt extended.

Rode the Bury line a few times, in the late 70's early 80s just for the hell of it.
The 3rd rail looked like a conventional top contact 3rd rail, but obviously with a large square groove on the side when you could see it. To me, looking at the rail close up, the top of the rail was always shiny as if something metallic was in contact with it.
 

norbitonflyer

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D7666

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Reckon it was done so that the Dick, Kerr firm would be able to submit a tender. As you say, not sure if they ever got the business. Can't see anything in the press at the time of the announcement (end March 1912) mentioning a Brazil connection, but it does seem entirely plausible.
Brasil in that era had numerous private railways a number of which were GB influenced, and some proposed DC electrification at higher than the then 600-1500 V ranges in use or development. They settled on 3000 V C in the end, although that was more influenced by the suppliers than any common uniform standard by the railways - that were mostly not inter connected and were primarily of two different track gauges.

Dick Kerr (and later again as EE), and M-V, and BTH, and American GE and Westinghouse, generated (pun intended) all sorts of proposals, a few were taken up (1920s onwards) many were not.

I /think/ I have read of a pre WW1 interest by EE in a bid for the then Sao Paulo Railway (later EFSJ) including the (in)famous Sierra rack line to Santos but where I read that escapes me now. It was some time before SPR/EFSJ got any OLE, but when it did, EE was in there.

There was also South Africa, which was another big 1920s 3000 V DC turnkey project - M-V got most of that.

The 3500 V DC Holcombe Brook experiments were also certainly linked to these ideas and possible tenders; WW1 intervened which is why it was 1920s before things got under way - even neutral lands not participating in WW1 were impacted by restrictions.
_
_

Back to Manc Bury, in a current parallel thread, I did post QUOTE I have not seen evidence to prove this but 1200 V may have been a variation on +/- 600-0-600 V in the era when ~600 V was in vogue. UNQUOTE
 
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contrex

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Thanks for the correction, I remember now! I wonder whether he was subject to prejudice because of his accent - it was still the days of R.P. and the 'establishment'. The only Maglev I can think of was the Birmingham International station to airport link, its promise was't fulfilled commercially.
He intrigued me in the 1970s onwards because of his great resemblance, in appearance and speech, to my father. Laithwaite was from Atherton, Lancashire, and my father from Derby. Both were professional heavy electrical engineers. Laithwaite got some funny ideas later on, gyroscopes and moths, I think.
 

Merle Haggard

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He intrigued me in the 1970s onwards because of his great resemblance, in appearance and speech, to my father. Laithwaite was from Atherton, Lancashire, and my father from Derby. Both were professional heavy electrical engineers. Laithwaite got some funny ideas later on, gyroscopes and moths, I think.

I'm not sure, but I think that Maglev involved gyroscopes.

I remember him well because he appeared quite often on T.V. in the 1960s, always talking about Maglev (with demonstrations) with an intensity that seemed a bit beyond enthusiastic - almost 'messianic'.

But the point (well made in a post above also) is that small self contained urban public transport systems, particularly if in the hands of local democracy, seem to almost inevitably call for some newsworthy innovative untried technology rather than a boring train, bus or tram, and as a result never happen.

Manchester - Bury parallel universe discussion; a Parry People Mover, anyone???
 

contrex

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I'm not sure, but I think that Maglev involved gyroscopes.
In Maglev, magnets under a train car and magnets in a guideway repel each other so the vehicle floats. No gyroscopes. That was Laithwaite's crazy 'reactionless drive' idea which involved gyroscopes. It is very like the 'Dean Drive' idea of the 1950s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_drive
 
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billio

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Looking back to the original L&Y electric trains running on this line, one of the things I remember is the unusual arrangement of the doors. They opened internally into a kind of vestibule, a completely different arrangement from slam-door railway carriages. Photographs of the earlier L&Y Southport trains appear to show a similar arrangement. Was this type of carriage door unique to the L&Y ?
 

Merle Haggard

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Looking back to the original L&Y electric trains running on this line, one of the things I remember is the unusual arrangement of the doors. They opened internally into a kind of vestibule, a completely different arrangement from slam-door railway carriages. Photographs of the earlier L&Y Southport trains appear to show a similar arrangement. Was this type of carriage door unique to the L&Y ?

I've only seen photos but they do seem U.S. - inspired.
The L&Y was forward-thinking in the years before the grouping in number of ways, and some of this might have been the result of looking at U.S.railroad practices generally (e.g., high capacity wagons)

edit; computer thought it knew best - it considered 'gouging' appropriate in a railway context. I can see the logic..
 
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TheSel

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Looking back to the original L&Y electric trains running on this line, one of the things I remember is the unusual arrangement of the doors. They opened internally into a kind of vestibule, a completely different arrangement from slam-door railway carriages. Photographs of the earlier L&Y Southport trains appear to show a similar arrangement. Was this type of carriage door unique to the L&Y ?
I may be 'talking' through a hole that was designed for sitting on (!), in which case I apologise, but I think the original Mersey Railway electric units of 1903 were of a similar design. I remember my father talking about having ridden in these shortly after moving to the Wirral in the early 1950s. This article (from that ever reliablish source 'Wikipedia'!) certainly suggests so.

[quote from Wikipedia article]: "In 1903 24 motor cars and 33 trailers were provided by Westinghouse. The stock was of an American design, with a clerestory roof and open gated ends."
 

Rescars

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IIRC Pullman car doors also opened inwards into a vestibule. Just can't find a picture to confirm this. Was this inherited US practice? Presumably passenger numbers at any one stop would have been rather different on a suburban service.
 

Taunton

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Eric Laithwaite put together in the 1960s in his university lab a trial linear motor, simplistically a chair on rails powered by a reaction plate between the rails. It went about 50 metres and terminated in a cushioned bumper. He appeared with it on the Blue Peter TV programme, and inevitably sent John Noakes down it ...

Few operations took up the linear motor, but one that did was the mainstream Vancouver Skytrain transit system in Canada, opened in 1986 and somewhat of DLR size and scale. After about 20 years of experience on the first two lines, possibly the largest scale operation of linear motors, when the third line was built and opened there it used conventional electric motors.

Skytrain opened for the very well attended Expo86 World Fair in Vancouver, which also had a Japanese Maglev demonstrator in the fairgrounds, which was extremely disappointing to ride; having queued for a long time to do so it got up to little more than walking pace, and could only operate once every 15 minutes due to overheating of the equipment. It was quite apparent that the technology had little to offer, and so it proved. However, I'm sure Eric Laithwaite must have gone over to see the two new systems then.
 

etr221

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My understanding is that the L&Y electric stock with inward opening doors was abnormally wide, and that was part of the reasoning for the inward opening doors.

Yes, British Pullmans did (and do) normally have inward opening doors (including the BR built ones) - a hangover from their American origins.
 

Rescars

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My understanding is that the L&Y electric stock with inward opening doors was abnormally wide, and that was part of the reasoning for the inward opening doors.

Yes, British Pullmans did (and do) normally have inward opening doors (including the BR built ones) - a hangover from their American origins.
Ah, thanks. Thought I wasn't imagining the way Pullman doors open(ed)!
 

norbitonflyer

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My understanding is that the L&Y electric stock with inward opening doors was abnormally wide, and that was part of the reasoning for the inward opening doors.

Yes, British Pullmans did (and do) normally have inward opening doors (including the BR built ones) - a hangover from their American origins.
On normal trains outward opening doors have the advantage that the guard or dispatcher can see whether a door has been left open by looking down the length of the train. Pullman trains had a steward at every door at stations, who could ensure the doors were closed before the train moved off.
Inward opening doors also take up valuable space inside the train, but that is less of an issue on a Pullman than on, say, a 4EPB
 
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