Transport for Wales Class 230

[anthony263]

Just noticed on RTT that 230006 has run ECS to Wrexham General and back today (3F42). I hope that it's not a typo!

Steve B

It's been having modifications so hopefully it's being gotten ready to go out.

I hope it works out so the rest can be sorted

 

[Lurcheroo]

Just noticed on RTT that 230006 has run ECS to Wrexham General and back today (3F42). I hope that it's not a typo!

Steve B

I’ve got the internal system showing that 230006 ran as 5Z41 (5 denoting an ECS move) departing Birkenhead depot at 12:55. Then returning from Wrexham general as 3F42 (3 denoting a test or training run) at 14:08.

why the difference in head codes I’m not totally sure but either way it certainly does seem that this was 230006 on a test run after it’s modifications.
I have no doubt there is plenty left to do but this is a great step forward and I really hope the modifications work and can be rolled out to the other 4 units so that they can run a half hourly service all on their own.

 

[DelW]

I had noticed that this thread had gone quiet, and that the most recently reported problems weren't caused by the 230s. Have they been performing adequately on the current timetable?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I had noticed that this thread had gone quiet, and that the most recently reported problems weren't caused by the 230s. Have they been performing adequately on the current timetable?

Would the term "adequately" still suggest only working half-days?

 

[Zontar]

Yes they're still only doing a couple of trips each day. Hope these mods improve reliability

 

[sansyy]

GWR 001 is looking really positive might be some changes in December hopefully with that and TfW

 

[Lurcheroo]

We spoke too soon! 230009 has failed today with a genset fault.

 

[Invincible]

We spoke too soon! 230009 has failed today with a genset fault.

But if in hybrid mode, batteries are used in stations, braking charges batteries, then the gensets are used for power between stations and to top up batteries. The failure of one genset should not affect the operation, and allow a swap later?

 

[Dan G]

I’ve got the internal system showing that 230006 ran as 5Z41 (5 denoting an ECS move) departing Birkenhead depot at 12:55. Then returning from Wrexham general as 3F42 (3 denoting a test or training run) at 14:08.

why the difference in head codes I’m not totally sure but either way it certainly does seem that this was 230006 on a test run after it’s modifications.
I have no doubt there is plenty left to do but this is a great step forward and I really hope the modifications work and can be rolled out to the other 4 units so that they can run a half hourly service all on their own.

What modifications has 006 received?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What modifications has 006 received?

Do we know what parts were taken off 230006 when it was dormant and used on the other units?

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Whatever is happening they could do with getting 230006 back into service soon and having the 230 fleet try and do a days work, still doing part time hours. The 197 situation looks like it’s getting bad again with some out of service and trains short formed and cancelled and it will probably get worse with the leaves just around the corner. The 197s need to be back on the main line.

 

[Lurcheroo]

But if in hybrid mode, batteries are used in stations, braking charges batteries, then the gensets are used for power between stations and to top up batteries. The failure of one genset should not affect the operation, and allow a swap later?

I don’t sign them sorry. It was pre service at Bidston as far as I can tell. They wouldn’t risk sending it all the way down and back if it’s not able to charge the batteries reliably. If it fails mid route, one line is then blocked until another 230 can get there to rescue it, creating a lot more inconvenience.

What modifications has 006 received?

I don’t know in much detail, but it is radiator modifications to prevent pollen clogging them and also battery cooling modifications to prevent them overheating. There may be other things done but that’s the limit of my knowledge on this one sorry.

Whatever is happening they could do with getting 230006 back into service soon and having the 230 fleet try and do a days work, still doing part time hours. The 197 situation looks like it’s getting bad again with some out of service and trains short formed and cancelled and it will probably get worse with the leaves just around the corner. The 197s need to be back on the main line.

Couldn’t agree more, having the 230’s pull their own weight and free up the 2 197’s would be a boost to the borderlands (the 230’s have 9 more seats, with 4 more table bays and is spread out over 3 coaches instead of being all within 2) and the mainline as the 197’s can be be used to strength other services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Couldn’t agree more, having the 230’s pull their own weight and free up the 2 197’s would be a boost to the borderlands (the 230’s have 9 more seats, with 4 more table bays and is spread out over 3 coaches instead of being all within 2) and the mainline as the 197’s can be be used to strength other services.

Have you ever wondered as to the length of time that this thread will still be running when Class 230 problems are still featured as the posting topic?

 

[40029 Saxonia]

230006 was outside the shed at Birkenhead North yesterday morning. First time I've seen it in ages. 230007 was in service and 230008 & 9 were visible inside the shed at Birkenhead North

230010 returned from Chester to Birkenhead North today

 

[Lurcheroo]

Have you ever wondered as to the length of time that this thread will still be running when Class 230 problems are still featured as the posting topic?

Oh yes, I wondered the same about MK4’s getting their 5th coaches too.
They take longer than we would like but get sorted eventually.
I’m still in good spirits about the 230’s issues being resolved.

 

[D365]

Do we know what parts were taken off 230006 when it was dormant and used on the other units?

Such matters are not normally discussed in the public domain.

 

[Invincible]

Such matters are not normally discussed in the public domain.

From comments earlier GWR, SWR and TfW are cooperating together to get spare part supplies for the ex Vivarail units.

 

[Zontar]

Just a timely reminder, all these millions spent on the 230 vanity project is at the expense of the tax payer.

 

[Richard Scott]

Just a timely reminder, all these millions spent on the 230 vanity project is at the expense of the tax payer.

Not sure you could say this is a vanity project! Don't think 230s fall into that category.
Unfortunately lots of projects are at expense of taxpayer that we may not agree with but sometimes good progress is made and sometimes it isn't. Maybe this one falls into latter category at the moment? Hopefully things will improve.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not sure you could say this is a vanity project! Don't think 230s fall into that category.
Unfortunately lots of projects are at expense of taxpayer that we may not agree with but sometimes good progress is made and sometimes it isn't. Maybe this one falls into latter category at the moment? Hopefully things will improve.

Quite amazingly, the two main definitions of the word "vanity" have totally different meanings. I will leave it up to you to decide which meaning would be associated with TfW in respect of the Class 230 units.

 

[Zontar]

I used vanity to avoid having to type out that they are throwing money at them because certain elements of them qualify them to be "green" which meets the govts agenda.

Battery powered
Recycled
Geofencing of engines

All sounds good, except they've cost millions, they use more fuel daily than a class 67, they leak fuel(overfill is a simple hole in the back of the tank) and the geofencing doesn't work.
Oh and they can't do a single days service.

I really hope these new mods make them more reliable, cos above all, tax payers and borderline users deserve a reliable service.

 

[Caaardiff]

Just a timely reminder, all these millions spent on the 230 vanity project is at the expense of the tax payer.

A lot of time and money has been wasted on these, agreed. But how much has actually been spent on them in total vs how much would 3 more brand new 197's cost?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A lot of time and money has been wasted on these, agreed. But how much has actually been spent on them in total vs how much would 3 more brand new 197's cost?

If you make allowances for labour costs and unavailability for service, plus "rental charges" for unnecessary depot time, plus the amount of passenger goodwill lost, in addition to all other items, it must be hard for anyone these days to make excuses for these units.

 

[D365]

If you make allowances for labour costs and unavailability for service, plus "rental charges" for unnecessary depot time, plus the amount of passenger goodwill lost, in addition to all other items, it must be hard for anyone these days to make excuses for these units.

It depends on which parties such costs are apportioned to. It has previously been discussed that not all of the shortcomings and ongoing disruption can be put down to the vehicle manufacturer or to the vehicles themselves - Class 701 is very similar in that regard.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Couldn’t agree more, having the 230’s pull their own weight and free up the 2 197’s would be a boost to the borderlands (the 230’s have 9 more seats, with 4 more table bays and is spread out over 3 coaches instead of being all within 2) and the mainline as the 197’s can be be used to strength other services.

As a matter of interest, if the 197s were sent away from the Borderlands, and the service relied 100% on the 230s, would there be a loss / degrading of class 197 traction knowledge ?

 

[sd0733]

As a matter of interest, if the 197s were sent away from the Borderlands, and the service relied 100% on the 230s, would there be a loss / degrading of class 197 traction knowledge ?

The depots who work the Bidstons have plenty of 197 work on other routes.

 

[Lurcheroo]

As a matter of interest, if the 197s were sent away from the Borderlands, and the service relied 100% on the 230s, would there be a loss / degrading of class 197 traction knowledge ?

As SD says, all depots get loads of 197 work without the Bidstons. If anything, having a 230 only covering 1 diagram a day probably makes the 230’s harder to maintain traction knowledge for crews as that’s all the 230’s do, so getting more diagrams would improve that.

 

[TDK]

A lot of time and money has been wasted on these, agreed. But how much has actually been spent on them in total vs how much would 3 more brand new 197's cost?

According to the freedom of information request a class 197 2-car costs about £5.5m, so 5 x 197 would cost in the region of £27m, the 230 project aledgedly has cost £70 - 80m so far including extra training, delay costs, purchase price, testing, mods and consultation.

 

[Sam 76]

According to the freedom of information request a class 197 2-car costs about £5.5m, so 5 x 197 would cost in the region of £27m, the 230 project aledgedly has cost £70 - 80m so far including extra training, delay costs, purchase price, testing, mods and consultation.

Wow I am truly shocked at the price of the 230s to be honest. I guess now they have to carry on but I also feel it may still be cheaper to cut ties and just order those new 197 units

 

[TDK]

Wow I am truly shocked at the price of the 230s to be honest. I guess now they have to carry on but I also feel it may still be cheaper to cut ties and just order those new 197 units

The cost of the 230's was never estimated that high, many factors are included, if the project had been successful that cost would have never escalated, TFW are running it to attempt to show they are applying a green strategy when in fact the gen sets are continuously running to enable the units to complete a round trip, this wasn't the initial intention. So looking at the performance a 230 will use more fuel than a 150 and actually ironically produce more emissions. As train crew many said that they (TFW) should have re-engined and refurbished 5 x 150's or acquired the 165's from Chiltern, the latter having the perkins equivalent 158 engines that would easily keep to time. The reason the performance improved was the extra 5 - 7 minutes run time from Central to Bidston with longer layover times at both ends, without this they would never have kept to the 150 timings of 57 minutes.