Steam era push-pull services

[30907]

Photos of the Southern batch clearly show them fitted with V.C.R. - this is the extra gear on the side of the smokebox, also angular steampipes from the vac. gear. Because they were outside cylinders they had the VCR kit on both sides. Photos even show them with the extra vac. pipe, you might have though that it would not be replaced when its date was up. When they came back to the LM (swapped for Ivatts for standardisation) one was allocated to Wellingborough and used on P&P to Northampton.

Whether the intention was to use them on p&p or whether they were just built with VCR because that's what then drawings said is, I accept, another matter. But the S.R. system was air operated, I think (extra ?air tank on the M7s), so not suitable.

My apologies - though I wonder if the whole lot were PP fitted, as an online search shows 84018 and 84025 both PP fitted, and only the latter was SR.
I don't have any relevant reference books.

 

[LMS 4F]

Bedford-Northampton, Bedford-Hitchin, Wolverton-Newport P. Wellingborough-Higham Ferrers, Northampton-Wellingborough Midland Rd. Rugby-Leamington Spa - Warwick (Milverton)

I rode both Bedford to Hitching and Northampton as a schoolboy in the 1950s. I can recall the logos after all this time but Ivatt tanks were on the scene at the time.

 

[Merle Haggard]

My apologies - though I wonder if the whole lot were PP fitted, as an online search shows 84018 and 84025 both PP fitted, and only the latter was SR.
I don't have any relevant reference books.

No problem. I think the most likely explanation is that P&P was just standard on the order. I think all the 'LMS' 2-6-2Ts (i.e. 412/413xx nos, many built by BR) sent to the Southern were not push - pull fitted; curiously, those had comparatively few P&P fitted members (in the entire class).

Conversely Ian Allan always had 47655/81 as push & pull fitted. Not only was this wrong, but at least one (47681, I think from memory) was not even vac fitted and had lever reverse. 3 link couplings, too.

 

[David Burrows]

Epping-Ongar, finished when the line was electrified by London Transport in November 1957. This was probably the most intensive push-pull service in the country, involving three trains shuttling at peak times on a line only 6 1/4 miles long.

 

[52290]

My apologies - though I wonder if the whole lot were PP fitted, as an online search shows 84018 and 84025 both PP fitted, and only the latter was SR.
I don't have any relevant reference books.

My 1958 edition of the "Observers of Railway Locomotives of Britain" edited by H C Casserley states the BR standard class 84000 to 84029 "all are motor fitted for pull and push working"
Of the LMS version, 41200 to 41329 he says "many motor fitted for pull and push working".
I remember both classes working Blackpool North to Fleetwood, p & p, I think.

 

[marsker]

LNER operated push-pull trains on the Blyth and Tyne lines with G5 0-4-4Ts. From pictures I've seen online and in publications, these trains were operating as late as the 1950s between Blyth and Monkseaton.

I remember seeing them at Monkseaton probably in the mid 50s and I think that they continued until the B&T service was taken over by DMUs. It was operated by DMUs by the time I started commuting to school at Monkseaton in 1959.

 

[norbitonflyer]

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No-one has yet mentioned the metropolitan Railway, whose Chesham branch was operated as a push-pull opertation right up until electrificatiuon in 1960 - latterly using carriages converted from EMU stock
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/

I thought the Met's Stanmore branch had also used push pull operation, but it turns out I was thinking of the LNWR branch to that village.

 

[Bevan Price]

I forgot other lines that had some push-pull workings -
Guide Bridge to Oldham Clegg Street (ex GCR 4-4-2T. and later an Ivatt 2-6-2T)
Millers Dale - Buxton (Midland) - (Stanier 0-4-4T)

One oddity on the Warrington / St. Helens service was that the loco for a St. Helens to London freight worked into St. Helens hauling a 2 coach push-pull set from Warrington. This was often a Black 5 4-6-0 or Stanier 5MT 2-6-0 and ar least once, a Stanier 8F 2-8-0.

All of the BR 84xxx 2-6-2T were built with LMS-style push-pull gear, but this could not be used on locos allocated to the Southern Region. Many of the final batch lasted for only about 7 years.

Not all of the Ivatt 2-6-2T were fitted with push-pull gear. From memory, I think that those originally fitted were 41210-29, 41270-89 and 41320-29; locos transferred to the Southern Region had the gear removed.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Urban myth here? I can't find evidence that the Standard 2s were PP fitted, unlike the Ivatts.

I don't have my records now, but I'm fairly sure I had one of 84006 or 84008 from Kettering to Wellingboro' one sunny Saturday in 1962. It was on a Kettering to Northampton job. Started from one of the south facing bays that used to exist at Kettering.

They lasted till 1964, after which PP working ceased (there's photos enough of substitute locos in the last months - the M7s were tired!). Ivatts and Standard 4s took over at Lymington and Swanage, the 84xxx had been sent away by then.

OK. I stand corrected. I remember seeing a stored, green 82xxx tank on an otherwise deserted Yeovil shed in Sept 1965. I guess they were not pp fitted. Not sure what it had been used for. The Yeovil Jcn - Town shuttle at the time was railbus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

I rode both Bedford to Hitching and Northampton as a schoolboy in the 1950s. I can recall the logos after all this time but Ivatt tanks were on the scene at the time.

I think they moved about a bit between Bedford/Cricklewood/Wellingboro, but around 1960 Bedford had at various times 84005, 84029 (I think, might be wrong on this one), 41225/6, 41276 (I think) and 41329, the latter was transferred from the Southern.

 

[SLC001]

Bushbury shed had 2 links operating the Wolverhampton to Rugeley Town service but crossing over at Rugeley Trent Valley. There was a Saturday Wolverhampton - Lichfield Trent Valley (High Level) service. Ex LNW 2-4-2T 6652 was used but later brand new Ivatt 2-6-2T 41225 arrived at the shed and was a vast improvement both in terms of performance and the working environment.
Northampton had a few engines for their motor link and were used on a number of routes already mentioned - Northampton - Leamington Spa and indeed the short trip to Blisworth. Again it appears that the Ivatt 2-6-2s were highly regarded. The Leamington Spa motor train occasionally had four coaches with the engine in the middle of them and so the fireman was on his own all the time.
And of course, there was the Dudley to Stourbridge auto train which I should have remembered.

 

[Taunton]

Can't confirm about those, but yes to M7-O2 (and before that T1). Pull and push working was rare West of Salisbury.

Yeovil Town to Junction was a longstanding one, using adapted old LSWR "Gate" stock with open curly wrought iron gate entrances. Quite why, instead of conventional doors, maybe someone can comment.

The Chard Central to Junction equivalent shuttle had been passed to operation by the GWR in the 1930s, as an efficiency saving, and was run by through services from Taunton. The GWR line didn't run on Sundays when the SR shuttle did, so one of the Yeovil shuttle sets and an M7 tank were sent down each Sunday to do so.

The Plymouth-Turnchapel local service, closed early 1950s, was another one. Only took about 10 minutes so saved much running round. before the push-pull set it was run by an LSWR steam rail motor.

 

[Rescars]

Does anyone know if Col Stephens ever tried P&P on any of his lines before he adopted Ford and Shefflex railcars? IIRC there was a steam railcar on the KESR one upon a time.

 

[etr221]

Yeovil Town to Junction was a longstanding one, using adapted old LSWR "Gate" stock with open curly wrought iron gate entrances. Quite why, instead of conventional doors, maybe someone can comment.

My understanding is that the ex LSWR "Gate Stock" was converted from the passenger part of steam railcars.

Also these were open coaches, so there was a need for to pass through train issuing tickets, leading to thoughts as to how to design the stock.

No-one has yet mentioned the metropolitan Railway, whose Chesham branch was operated as a push-pull opertation right up until electrificatiuon in 1960 - latterly using carriages converted from EMU stock
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/

It used what on the Met was called 'Bogie' or 'Ashbury' stock. Originally built for steam working in the late 1890s (IIRC), it was converted for electric use after electrification, and once the superior 'Dreadnought' steam stock came along from c1910. Then, under the LPTB in the late 1930s, it got replaced by new electric stock, but six cars were converted to form 2 3 car pp sets for the Chesham branch (origianally there to have been 3 set, from 9 cars, but the loop proposed for the branch, which would have permitted two trains on the branch, was cancelled), and as stated lasted until branch was electrified in 1960. When 4 of the cars were bought by the Bluebell Railway, where they still are - except when borrowed by TfL for 'Steam on the Met' celebrations.

Something else not mentioned is that until the mid 1960s, in the UK push-pull working was restricted, only two or three vehicles were allowed to be propelled: this also, I believe, was a constraint on mu designs. Until the SR decided to run some trials, which led to stock arrangement for the Bournemouth electrification.

 

[Taunton]

Something else not mentioned is that until the mid 1960s, in the UK push-pull working was restricted, only two or three vehicles were allowed to be propelled: this also, I believe, was a constraint on mu designs. Until the SR decided to run some trials, which led to stock arrangement for the Bournemouth electrification.

I seem to recall a Modern Railways article (as ever) on the trials, which were actually conducted at speed on the ECML with a Class 37 and about ten Mk1 vehicles; a brake vehicle had windows and controls added to one end. It was what led to the REP+TC approach, so a good guess would be the SR would do their own tests as well. But it was necessary to overcome this national restriction, which went back to Board of Trade days.

The two vehicle propelled restriction (other than shunting) also applied to any vehicles hauled behind the guards' vehicle.

 

[rototunablack5]

This thread gives details on the Hughes LYR railmotors and where they ran. The last one was withdrawn (from the Horwich branch) in 1948 and they were replaced by 2-4-2 tanks with push-pull sets. Some in turn were replaced by Ivatt 2-6-2Ts until either replaced by DMUs or the lines closed.

Did the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway operate any such services?

Yes, rail motors (known locally as “Puffing Billy”) were used by LYR, LNWR, LMS and BR from 1906-1956 between Burnley and Colne.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The two vehicle propelled restriction (other than shunting) also applied to any vehicles hauled behind the guards' vehicle.

I seem to recall that the reason the Edinburgh-Glasgow push-pull services always operated with the DBSO at the Glasgow end was a local requirement that there had to be a crew member (driver or guard) at the downhill end of any train on Cowlairs bank.

 

[randyrippley]

I seem to recall a Modern Railways article (as ever) on the trials, which were actually conducted at speed on the ECML with a Class 37 and about ten Mk1 vehicles; a brake vehicle had windows and controls added to one end. It was what led to the REP+TC approach, so a good guess would be the SR would do their own tests as well. But it was necessary to overcome this national restriction, which went back to Board of Trade days.

The two vehicle propelled restriction (other than shunting) also applied to any vehicles hauled behind the guards' vehicle.

Didn't the SR lash up an 8-TC set for testing?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Didn't the SR lash up an 8-TC set for testing?

There was a 7-TC unit formed from a 2BIL sandwiching five 4SUB trailers, but this was not wired for push-pull working, it was simply a way of creating a seven car rake with ETH. Numbered 900, then 701

Later there was a 6-TC unit which could work push pull - this was created from two 4COR motor cioaches sandwiching four 6PUL trailers, with a suitably adapted class 33 to operate it. Numebred 601

Both briefly worked the Oxted line, with the 6TC later working the Kenny belle

 

[johnl]

I can add a little about the Stroud Railcar, as I think it was then called, although we
children termed it the "Rally" for unknown reasons, and it was also officially called the
Gloucester-Chalford Motor Train. I was at school in Stonehouse Glos during the late
1950's to late 1960's and took that train from Stonehouse Burdett Road to Gloucester and
back fairly often, as well as (as anyone else who remembers it will appreciate) hearing it
loud and clear every hour or so, as it had a piercing whistle.

I was a keen train-spotter in those days and have notes about which of the 14xx class
I had spotted and also where each loco was shedded, from which I can roughly deduce that,
in 1963, the following locos housed at one or other of the Gloucester sheds
may have been operating that train :
. at Horton Rd
1424 1440 1444 1451 1453 1455
. at Barnwood
1445

I came across this photo

Before the Beeching Axe – the Chalford Auto trains

In 1964 the closures resulting from the Beeching Report were in full swing, with every week bringing a brace of new ones somewhere in the country. Saturday 31st October of that year saw most of the local passenger services around Gloucester getting the chop and, although the closures actually...

www.flickr.com

of 1458 pulling something described as the "Chalford Auto train" in 1964.

Well, there are 3 carriages on this train, and Stonehouse station could not accommodate
more than 2 in those days, and also my shed book indicates that 1458 lived at Hereford
Craven Arms in 1963, so I think it's possible this is a different push-pull service,
although the differing dates might account for it.

Cheers, johnl

 

[WesternLancer]

I can add a little about the Stroud Railcar, as I think it was then called, although we
children termed it the "Rally" for unknown reasons, and it was also officially called the
Gloucester-Chalford Motor Train. I was at school in Stonehouse Glos during the late
1950's to late 1960's and took that train from Stonehouse Burdett Road to Gloucester and
back fairly often, as well as (as anyone else who remembers it will appreciate) hearing it
loud and clear every hour or so, as it had a piercing whistle.

I was a keen train-spotter in those days and have notes about which of the 14xx class
I had spotted and also where each loco was shedded, from which I can roughly deduce that,
in 1963, the following locos housed at one or other of the Gloucester sheds
may have been operating that train :
. at Horton Rd
1424 1440 1444 1451 1453 1455
. at Barnwood
1445

I came across this photo

Before the Beeching Axe – the Chalford Auto trains

In 1964 the closures resulting from the Beeching Report were in full swing, with every week bringing a brace of new ones somewhere in the country. Saturday 31st October of that year saw most of the local passenger services around Gloucester getting the chop and, although the closures actually...

www.flickr.com

of 1458 pulling something described as the "Chalford Auto train" in 1964.

Well, there are 3 carriages on this train, and Stonehouse station could not accommodate
more than 2 in those days, and also my shed book indicates that 1458 lived at Hereford
Craven Arms in 1963, so I think it's possible this is a different push-pull service,
although the differing dates might account for it.

Cheers, johnl

I enjoyed this post. Thanks for writing it. Must have been good days for observing these things.

 

[Bevan Price]

I can add a little about the Stroud Railcar, as I think it was then called, although we
children termed it the "Rally" for unknown reasons, and it was also officially called the
Gloucester-Chalford Motor Train. I was at school in Stonehouse Glos during the late
1950's to late 1960's and took that train from Stonehouse Burdett Road to Gloucester and
back fairly often, as well as (as anyone else who remembers it will appreciate) hearing it
loud and clear every hour or so, as it had a piercing whistle.

I was a keen train-spotter in those days and have notes about which of the 14xx class
I had spotted and also where each loco was shedded, from which I can roughly deduce that,
in 1963, the following locos housed at one or other of the Gloucester sheds
may have been operating that train :
. at Horton Rd
1424 1440 1444 1451 1453 1455
. at Barnwood
1445

I came across this photo

Before the Beeching Axe – the Chalford Auto trains

In 1964 the closures resulting from the Beeching Report were in full swing, with every week bringing a brace of new ones somewhere in the country. Saturday 31st October of that year saw most of the local passenger services around Gloucester getting the chop and, although the closures actually...

www.flickr.com

of 1458 pulling something described as the "Chalford Auto train" in 1964.

Well, there are 3 carriages on this train, and Stonehouse station could not accommodate
more than 2 in those days, and also my shed book indicates that 1458 lived at Hereford
Craven Arms in 1963, so I think it's possible this is a different push-pull service,
although the differing dates might account for it.

Cheers, johnl

To me, it looks like 2 coaches - with a dark shadow across the middle of the second coach..

 

[Merle Haggard]

Did the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway operate any such services?

I don't think this has been fully answered. The L&Y used a fair number (about 18*) 'rail motors' with a special loco supporting one end of the attached coach, the latter also carrying the bunker. They could be described as the most successful of the many rail motors tried by different railways. The last was on the Blackrod - Horwich service and lasted into B.R. days.
The Barry Lane L&Y Locos. book mentions that there were only the Railmotors for branch lines, no push-pull with independent loco. There is also the inference that the reason for withdrawal of individual rail motors was the closure of their branch, rather than replacement by push-pull with independent loco. The Horwich branch was one exception, from photos. having a Bolton 84000 later.

* 'about' because there was one more loco than coach; in th Barry Lane book it's stated that, when a loco was due for works it was detached from its coach and a replacement fitted. The inference was that this was done at the home shed, meaning that some brave (or enforced very reluctantly) crew had to drive the loco to Horwich. When detached from the coach (which, as mentioned, carried the bunker) there was nothing at the back end of the footplate.

 

[30907]

To me, it looks like 2 coaches - with a dark shadow across the middle of the second coach..

Yes, clearly 2 (the front coach has mis-printed or mis-scanned too).

(AFAIK the WR didn't permit 3 trailers to be propelled as a unit, unlike the SR, hence the "loco sandwich" for the 4-car Saltash trains.)

 

[70014IronDuke]

I seem to remember Skipton had some 412xx tanks allocated. Was the line to Colne worked by push-pull sets? If not, what were they used for, anyone know?

 

[Taunton]

(AFAIK the WR didn't permit 3 trailers to be propelled as a unit, unlike the SR, hence the "loco sandwich" for the 4-car Saltash trains.)

It was an old Board of Trade restriction that no more than two coaches could be propelled in service, or be behind the guard. It lasted until the mid-1960s, and was responsible for formations like the 4-CIG, with guard and power unit in a centre car with no more than two propelled ahead. It was given up after extensive trials with propelled formations on the ECML and the Southern, and led to the 4-REP Bournemouth line operation.

 

[etr221]

It was an old Board of Trade restriction that no more than two coaches could be propelled in service, or be behind the guard. It lasted until the mid-1960s, and was responsible for formations like the 4-CIG, with guard and power unit in a centre car with no more than two propelled ahead. It was given up after extensive trials with propelled formations on the ECML and the Southern, and led to the 4-REP Bournemouth line operation.

That is what I thought, but the LT/Met Chesham branch shuttle was a three coach pp set - I don't know whether there were any other such, so can anybody state what the restriction actually was? Was it actually "two unless we say otherwise"?

 

[30907]

I seem to remember Skipton had some 412xx tanks allocated. Was the line to Colne worked by push-pull sets? If not, what were they used for, anyone know?

Worth Valley and Barlick off the top of my head, but ISTR there were workings towards Bradford too.

That is what I thought, but the LT/Met Chesham branch shuttle was a three coach pp set - I don't know whether there were any other such,

Lymington, Swanage and Seaton all had strengthening coaches, as seemingly did the Maidstone West branch; several others were allocated to the Central in the late 50s, probably for Brighton-Horsham (all "Long Ten" 100-seat Seconds). 4-wheel PMVs aka "Pram Vans" were also used, on the Ringwood route and elsewhere.
So three wasn't uncommon.

 

[SCH117X]

The SR used a different push-pull system to the LMS so once the 2-6-2Ts, even if push-pull fitted, replaced the M7s they had to run round push-pull stock.

 

[Lost property]

The Ditton Jn-Warrington BQLL-Timperley line was mostly push-pull worked.
I think some trains worked into Manchester Oxford Road or Warwick Road (Old Trafford) before reversing.
This line went over to DMU operation during the rebuild of Oxford Road, but steam resumed before final closure in 1963.
Also some of the North Wales branches (eg Holywell, Dyserth, Bethesda).
Possibly Hooton-Neston-West Kirby.
Maybe Warrington BQHL-Earlestown-St Helens Jn-St Helens Shaw St (now Central)?

The trains certainly did operate into Oxford Rd because I used to catch it sometimes back to Timperley. I can't recall which, but, it only stopped at either Dane Rd / Stretford / Sale and then Timperley. No recollection of DMU services, on that route, Chester trains aside, going through to Altrincham.