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Steam era push-pull services

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Big Jumby 74

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I am aware of the many steam era push-pull services that once existed on the SR patch, most notably perhaps (for me) using pp fitted M7's, but got me thinking about similar services elsewhere around the country. Have a feeling the East Midlands, Stamford-Seaton-Uppingham area may also have seen pp services, but curious to know of any others that have existed. Thinking anytime date-wise, the caveat being steam hauled/propelled.
 
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30907

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There were numerous ex GWR routes (ok they called them auto trains but the principle is the same), of which ISTR the last was Gloucester-Chalford (though the last to be introduced were Seaton and Yeovil after the conquest of the LSW).

The LMS had a few, including Oxenhope and Barnoldswick in Yorkshire and Delph and Horwich (and Morecambe when not electric), and someone will no doubt fill in LNE details as I am sure they used them too. I think both regions confined them to short branch lines, whereas the SR had some fairly long (1hr+) routes.
 

RT4038

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Bedford-Northampton, Bedford-Hitchin, Wolverton-Newport P. Wellingborough-Higham Ferrers, Northampton-Wellingborough Midland Rd. Rugby-Leamington Spa - Warwick (Milverton)
 

Cheshire Scot

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LNER / BR Craigendoran to Arrochar and Tarbet - C15 loco with two coaches replaced by Railbuses in the early 1960s and the service was withdrawn and several stations closed in 1964.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The Ditton Jn-Warrington BQLL-Timperley line was mostly push-pull worked.
I think some trains worked into Manchester Oxford Road or Warwick Road (Old Trafford) before reversing.
This line went over to DMU operation during the rebuild of Oxford Road, but steam resumed before final closure in 1963.
Also some of the North Wales branches (eg Holywell, Dyserth, Bethesda).
Possibly Hooton-Neston-West Kirby.
Maybe Warrington BQHL-Earlestown-St Helens Jn-St Helens Shaw St (now Central)?
 

WesternLancer

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Wasn’t Rolleston Jct to Southwell near Newark one. LMS/LMR.

I have an idea I’ve seen cine film of it.

I found a Flickr link image but do know how to post a link from my phone annoyingly
 

Rescars

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The GWR autotrains were developed to overcome some of the limitations in the use of steam railmotors. The same principle of a driving position at both ends, so no need for turning applied equally to PP working. IIRC the LMS and LNER had over 100 railmotors between them to fulfill similar functions to PP workings. Unlike the Southern, they didn't have large numbers of suburban tank engines made surplus to requirements as a result of electrification.

This may be straying too far from the OT, but earlier generations of railmotors turned up in all sort of backwaters. As an example, the GSWR ran them on the Cairn Valley Light Railway to Moniaive.
 

30907

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The GWR autotrains were developed to overcome some of the limitations in the use of steam railmotors. The same principle of a driving position at both ends, so no need for turning applied equally to PP working. IIRC the LMS and LNER had over 100 railmotors between them to fulfill similar functions to PP workings. Unlike the Southern, they didn't have large numbers of suburban tank engines made surplus to requirements as a result of electrification.
Steam railmotors were widespread (in penny numbers generally) in the early C20, including the three Southern companies.
The GWR had nearly 100 and they lasted into the 30s; the 80-odd LNER Sentinel cars were the other big success, effectively a "second generation" design.
(Numbers sourced online, hope they are correct!).
 

stuving

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Since Greenford was one of our local stations when I was growing up, I remember the push and pull than ran between there and Ealing Broadway. It was replaced by diesel railcars from 25th August 1958 (which predates my having a camera). There was an article about its history in the Middlesex County Times of 30th August, but there was much less coverage than in December 1950 when one derailed just outside Greenford station.
 

Merle Haggard

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The Southern region operated a number of push - pull services, as the O.P. states.

The locos used were all getting old and presumably unreliable in the early 1950's, so replacements were ordered - push - pull fitted B.R. Standard class 2 2-6-2Ts. These, and their L.M.S. design predecessors were widely used on the L.M. on motor trains, having replaced much older locos.

Sounds ideal, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, the L.M.S. / L.M.R. push pull control system (from the driving coach when the loco was propelling) used a vacuum-controlled regulator (V.C.R.) - - - but the Southern system was different, so the new locos were incompatible with the stock...
 

randyrippley

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There were numerous ex GWR routes (ok they called them auto trains but the principle is the same), of which ISTR the last was Gloucester-Chalford (though the last to be introduced were Seaton and Yeovil after the conquest of the LSW).
The GW pannier tanks between Yeovil Junction and Pen Mill Town from 1963 onwards replaced earlier SR railway ones. I'm trying to rack my brains to remember a "Railway Modeller" article back in the 1960s, but I think it said they replaced Southern M7 locos on SR push-pull sets, which had themselves replaced O2 locos and before that a small 2-4-0 tank. Beattie well tanks maybe? I really can't remember.

==edited==
correct Pen Mill > Town
dunno what I was thinking there
 
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Merle Haggard

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Think Buxton Midland to Millers Dale had them, maybe up to introduction of DMUs.

the first diesels on the service were W&M 4 wheel railbuses, technically not d.m.u..



Bedford-Northampton, Bedford-Hitchin, Wolverton-Newport P. Wellingborough-Higham Ferrers, Northampton-Wellingborough Midland Rd. Rugby-Leamington Spa - Warwick (Milverton)

There was quite a push - pull network based on Northampton & Warwick sheds; Northampton - Blisworth (reverse) - Weedon - Daventry - Leamington - Rugby / Coventry. obviously not all trains worked the entire route. The circuit working book is interesting. The Northampton - Wellingborough had a few extensions down the main line to Kettering, and the p&p set also ran Wellingborough London Road (department 16.21)- all stations to Oundle - for scholars at Wellingborough School to fill a gap in the Northampton - Peterborough service.. The last p&p service in the U.K. was from Seaton - Stamford (Town). there had also been a Seaton - Uppingham p&p service, but this was closed before Beeching (although term start-end specials for Uppingham School ran for a few more years.

//

I've seen the loco of the Northampton - Wellingborough service under the coaler at Wellingborough shed, with the coaches still attached. Not all the coal went into the loco bunker but landed on the coach roof.

Vans could be conveyed on P&P services, looked odd when the loco was propelling, vans attached behind the loco (obviously :) )
 

Swanley 59

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LNER operated push-pull trains on the Blyth and Tyne lines with G5 0-4-4Ts. From pictures I've seen online and in publications, these trains were operating as late as the 1950s between Blyth and Monkseaton.
 

Bevan Price

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St. Helens Shaw Street (as it was) to Earlestown/Warrington, Widnes South/Ditton Jn, Rainford Jn, plus a mid-week fill-in trip to Liverpool Lime Street & back. (Webb 2-4-2T until replaced by Ivatt 2-6-2T. )
Rainford Jn - Ormskirk. (L&YR 2-4-2T until replaced by Ivatt 2-6-2T)
Lancaster - Morecambe Euston Road.
Bangor / Gaerwn - Amlwch. (Ivatt or BR 2-6-2T)
Wrexham Central - Ellesmere. (14xx 0-4-2T)
Gobowen - Oswestry. (14xx 0-4-2T, although in final years, not all were push-pull operated.)
 

Rescars

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Vans could be conveyed on P&P services, looked odd when the loco was propelling, vans attached behind the loco (obviously :) )
The LBSC operated P&P services with a Terrier sandwiched between two "balloon" driving trailers, making the Terrier appearance even more diminutive. Was it LBSC or GWR which tried fitting a carriage body around the loco to provide a more uniform appearance for this type of marshalling? I don't think this got beyond the trial stage as the coach body required extra care with care with cleaning and got in the way of routine maintenance.
 

Taunton

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The various types tended to be homebuilt adaptations, starting with the various names - Motor Train, Auto Train, Push-Pull, and possibly others. The LMS used a vacuum pipe control, the Southern used a high level cable control along the carriage tops, and the GWR used a mechanical rotating rod which ran under the centres of the vehicles and loco, and was a right nuisance to connect up. The only auto train at Taunton was the all stations to Castle Cary, withdrawn before my time, but apparently crews often preferred to do it conventionally, and run round at each end, both for ease of coupling and for the controls being very stiff, especially on curves..

The GWR cars were indeed often adaptations of their predecessor steam railmotors, with the engine part removed. In the mid-1950s Swindon built a series of replacements, some of the last GWR-pattern vehicles ever, and had the cheek to paint them chocolate & cream. They were quite soon repainted maroon.

One of the advantages was the avoidance of shunting, particularly at places with restricted space. Both Gloucester to Chalford and Plymouth to Saltash were run like this because of lack of space at the outer terminal. In times before the Tamar road bridge was built the Saltash services were extremely busy, four auto trailers, two either side of the 64xx Pannier Tank, which made the mechanical controls, all connected, even heavier, and not offering the respite of being on the locomotive in one direction.

Lesser auto trains on quiet branches were however notably heavy on the crews; because of the additional responsibilities for the fireman, operating alone on the loco, such as operating the cut-off or the ejector, it was a Passed Fireman role, and the guard I believe also received extra pay for the ticket collecting task. All for often just a small handful of passengers.

The Chalford train served a whole series of stations and halts down to Stonehouse, then ran nonstop to Gloucester where the GWR Swindon line ran parallel for several miles to the LMS Bristol line. This was apparently favoured ground for racing. Noted train timer O S Nock was timing a Bristol to Birmingham express, hauled by a Jubilee, when to his surprise they were slowly but steadily overtaken by a Chalford auto train, propelling carriage first with the loco running in reverse.

I believe some systems had means for the driver in the front car to sound the loco whistle, but the GWR cars had a large pedal-operated gong on the front, same as on their slip coaches, which could be heard from a considerable distance. The driver, right underneath it, must have been deafened by operating it.
 

WesternLancer

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The LBSC operated P&P services with a Terrier sandwiched between two "balloon" driving trailers, making the Terrier appearance even more diminutive. Was it LBSC or GWR which tried fitting a carriage body around the loco to provide a more uniform appearance for this type of marshalling? I don't think this got beyond the trial stage as the coach body required extra care with care with cleaning and got in the way of routine maintenance.

Your post reminded me of an LBSCR poster advertising 'Rail Motor Services that I have occasionally seen showing a service near what I'm fairly sure is Pevensey castle - it's not quite push pull in style but perhaps this is similar to the type you describe? Maybe someone knows if this is a design that the LBSCR used on these services regularly.


or is the poster an artists stylised version of one of the Beyer Peacock types photographed here nos 1&2 ?

 
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jp4712

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Did the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway operate any such services?
This thread gives details on the Hughes LYR railmotors and where they ran. The last one was withdrawn (from the Horwich branch) in 1948 and they were replaced by 2-4-2 tanks with push-pull sets. Some in turn were replaced by Ivatt 2-6-2Ts until either replaced by DMUs or the lines closed.
 

Big Jumby 74

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There were numerous ex GWR routes (ok they called them auto trains but the principle is the same), of which ISTR the last was Gloucester-Chalford (though the last to be introduced were Seaton and Yeovil after the conquest of the LSW).
Thank you all for your comments and thoughts. Must admit I had overlooked the GW auto trains, partly because being of SR heritage myself and so was thinking 2 coach sets with a Driving trailer (and M7/02 etc) in the first place, and (I say with tongue in cheek) the last few words as per '30907s' comment above, although 'decimation of' might be a better description - but let's not go there just now....:lol:

Interesting to know the LM had quite a few pp worked services, a couple of which were in the back of my head, the Belmont branch being one and as per my post the Stamford-Seaton-Uppingham area as well. Managed to find some detail of the 2 car LM sets concerned, the Driving cars being non corridor 57' vehicles, some of Ivatt design (diag 2122?) and others of Stanier heritage.

Also interesting (but not surprising) how few photos seem to exist of pp sets in service, taken of the Driving coach end, many photographers preferring to take their photos with the loco in prime image position, even when propelling. Thanks again all.
 

70014IronDuke

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The GW pannier tanks between Yeovil Junction and Pen Mill from 1963 onwards replaced earlier SR railway ones. I'm trying to rack my brains to remember a "Railway Modeller" article back in the 1960s, but I think it said they replaced Southern M7 locos on SR push-pull sets, which had themselves replaced O2 locos and before that a small 2-4-0 tank. Beattie well tanks maybe? I really can't remember.
I don't think the M7s lasted that long. I strongly suspect the last SR workings were either Ivatt 412xx or Standard 840xx 2-6-2Ts.

Burton-o-T to Tutbury I think was pp

On GWR, Abingdon branch, Wallingford branch, Fairford? And Swindon - Highworth?
 

30907

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The Southern region operated a number of push - pull services, as the O.P. states.

The locos used were all getting old and presumably unreliable in the early 1950's, so replacements were ordered - push - pull fitted B.R. Standard class 2 2-6-2Ts. These, and their L.M.S. design predecessors were widely used on the L.M. on motor trains, having replaced much older locos.

Sounds ideal, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, the L.M.S. / L.M.R. push pull control system (from the driving coach when the loco was propelling) used a vacuum-controlled regulator (V.C.R.) - - - but the Southern system was different, so the new locos were incompatible with the stock...
Urban myth here? I can't find evidence that the Standard 2s were PP fitted, unlike the Ivatts.
The SR batch were split between Ashford and Ramsgate, not prime PP territory, but this allowed a cascade of Hs (suitably motor fitted) which thus allowed the ex LCD R(1) to be withdrawn (I'd bet the Hs received the PP equipment from them).

The GW pannier tanks between Yeovil Junction and Pen Mill from 1963 onwards replaced earlier SR railway ones. I'm trying to rack my brains to remember a "Railway Modeller" article back in the 1960s, but I think it said they replaced Southern M7 locos on SR push-pull sets, which had themselves replaced O2 locos and before that a small 2-4-0 tank. Beattie well tanks maybe? I really can't remember.
Can't confirm about those, but yes to M7-O2 (and before that T1). Pull and push working was rare West of Salisbury.
I don't think the M7s lasted that long. I strongly suspect the last SR workings were either Ivatt 412xx or Standard 840xx 2-6-2Ts.
They lasted till 1964, after which PP working ceased (there's photos enough of substitute locos in the last months - the M7s were tired!). Ivatts and Standard 4s took over at Lymington and Swanage, the 84xxx had been sent away by then.
 

Merle Haggard

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Urban myth here? I can't find evidence that the Standard 2s were PP fitted, unlike the Ivatts.
The SR batch were split between Ashford and Ramsgate, not prime PP territory, but this allowed a cascade of Hs (suitably motor fitted) which thus allowed the ex LCD R(1) to be withdrawn (I'd bet the Hs received the PP equipment from them).

Photos of the Southern batch clearly show them fitted with V.C.R. - this is the extra gear on the side of the smokebox, also angular steampipes from the vac. gear. Because they were outside cylinders they had the VCR kit on both sides. Photos even show them with the extra vac. pipe, you might have though that it would not be replaced when its date was up. When they came back to the LM (swapped for Ivatts for standardisation) one was allocated to Wellingborough and used on P&P to Northampton.

Whether the intention was to use them on p&p or whether they were just built with VCR because that's what then drawings said is, I accept, another matter. But the S.R. system was air operated, I think (extra ?air tank on the M7s), so not suitable.
 

Rescars

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As a total aside, it would seem that the LBSC tried their E2 0-6-0Ts as motive power in the centre of a couple of six car sets in 1914. Not a success apparently, due to inadequate coal capacity. But it does raise the entertaininh thought that "Thomas" might at one time been P&P fitted. Can't imagine he would have smiled much about that! :D
 
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I was going to mention the Nobby Newport line - Wolverton to Newport Pagnell with intermediate stations at New Bradwell and Great Linford - but you beat me to it.

IIRC, the engine pulled from Wolverton to Newport and pushed back to Wolverton. As my dad worked in the Works and used the line for daily journeys to and from work he knew many of the staff and one Saturday, to our delight, managed to get us two small daughters a, probably against the rules, ride from Newport to Wolverton at the front of the train, in the guards van. I've never forgotten that :)

The line closed on the first Saturday in September 1964 and is now a redway for pedestrians and cyclists.

I have no idea why the train was always referred to as Nobby Newport but in recent times many incorrect references have been made to it in print as Newport Nobby.
 

Big Jumby 74

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As my dad worked in the Works and used the line for daily journeys to and from work he knew many of the staff and one Saturday, to our delight, managed to get us two small daughters a, probably against the rules, ride from Newport to Wolverton at the front of the train, in the guards van. I've never forgotten that :)
For many it's often such brief memories from childhood that lead to a life times career on the railway, something I never regretted, but sadly would not recommend to any youngster in todays world - might just be an age thing, but the industry is no longer what it once was. Appreciate this latter comment may cause some opposing views, but we are all different..
 
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