Why is it so hard to buy an excess?

[Adam Williams]

Leamington ticket office, this morning. They've been pretty poor in the past, but I thought I'd give them a go on this occasion again.

My SO held a Super Off-Peak Return. I asked for a (one-way, return portion) excess for this already-held ticket to an Off-Peak Return which allows a slightly earlier arrival in Marylebone. First staff member immediately wants nothing to do with the request. Second staff member who comes over gives an immediate "But that was bought online, you can't do that here and need to buy the excess online". I point out that third-party retailers cannot sell ordinarily sell excesses (they can't be ToD'd and they're not normally fulfillable to E-Ticket), and handed over my phone with the iKB open on the Excess Fares Procedures page which very clearly says the customer's original fulfilment method doesn't matter one jot when they're trying to buy an excess.

We get nowhere - they can't figure out how to enter the UTN into their TIS. I don't know who supplies these, or how it's supposed to work (is anyone able to explain for next time?) so I can't give instructions or really help much. I ask if they can just input some of the numbers from it and then enter the price and ticket type details manually, but they don't seem to get anywhere or really try that hard.

I follow this up with a complaint to Chiltern's customer services, and got an even worse response:



In response to this, the chat was closed. "As mentioned, you can be issued with a penalty fare for travelling without a valid ticket".

There are some really good individual staff members at Chiltern, but seemingly none of them work at Leamington. I really feel like I'm banging my head against the wall sometimes.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's very easy to enter the UTN on Worldline Mtis as used by Chiltern, I can never understand why X/S is so hard for people.

 

[John R]

I thought you can’t buy a one way excess on a super off peak return. The whole of the ticket has to be excessed to the appropriate time restriction. So in some cases it is cheaper to buy a new single ticket (at least on GWR).

 

[Bletchleyite]

You cannot do a partial ticket type excess, you have to excess the whole ticket to Off Peak.

You can partially route excess, and I think class excess (though I'm not 100% sure on that one) but not ticket type.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's very easy to enter the UTN on Worldline Mtis as used by Chiltern

Thanks - is it the entire thing (letters and numbers) they need to enter, with the issuer prefix?

you have to excess the whole ticket to Off Peak.

That's fair enough - I'd have been happy to pay for this if it was offered as an alternative - and then double checked the entitlement after, but they wouldn't sell an excess at all. It still would've been cheaper to pay the difference for the whole ticket (even though the outward portion wasn't used at an Off-Peak time) vs just buying an entire new ticket for this return journey, I think.

 

[Haywain]

You cannot do a partial ticket type excess, you have to excess the whole ticket to Off Peak.

You can partially route excess, and I think class excess (though I'm not 100% sure on that one) but not ticket type.

Correct, it's called a change of ticket type. Change of route or class of travel can be fone in one direction only, anything else charges the full difference between return fares.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2024 ==

It's very easy to enter the UTN on Worldline Mtis as used by Chiltern, I can never understand why X/S is so hard for people.

Scan the barcode?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Thanks - is it the entire thing (letters and numbers) they need to enter, with the issuer prefix?

Yes I think you can even scan the original ticket to put the UTN in but I may be wrong, haven't used the system in anger in a while.

 

[Hadders]

It is so frustrating. It's not just excesses but anything remotely 'complicated', for example a ticket to London International that a member of staff refused to sell me last year.

Someone working in a ticket office really should be an expert, but this really does seem too much to ask these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is so frustrating. It's not just excesses but anything remotely 'complicated', for example a ticket to London International that a member of staff refused to sell me last year.

Someone working in a ticket office really should be an expert, but this really does seem too much to ask these days.

Indeed, I've had far more poor experiences with booking offices than good ones, and it's nothing new, it was poor in BR days a lot of the time too. Fortunately now there are usually other options, excesses being an irritating exception.

 

[Titfield]

Indeed, I've had far more poor experiences with booking offices than good ones, and it's nothing new, it was poor in BR days a lot of the time too. Fortunately now there are usually other options, excesses being an irritating exception.

Sadly got to agree. Easier to use a good TOC web booking engine (or Trainsplit) than go to a Ticket Office.

 

[MrJeeves]

Second staff member who comes over gives an immediate "But that was bought online, you can't do that here and need to buy the excess online".

Sounds like my experience at Southeastern (Bromley South)...

I wish we could just put this down to certain staff or bad training from one operator, but things like this are rife across every TOC at so many stations... It's an absolute joke that the few things you can only get done at a ticket office cannot be done by so many ticket office staff.

I'm all against closing them, as was attempted last year, but, my god, do they make it hard to argue on their behalf.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

And another thing... Why, on the rare occasion when you might need a one-way change of route excess, do some ticket offices want to charge you the full fare difference, not half the difference?

 

[Krokodil]

I'm a guard (not Chiltern) and issue quite a few excesses and would have done so in your case (the only ones I can't do are cross-London). I'm pretty sure that I'm the exception though, the process is needlessly complicated and takes a lot of time (which shouldn't be a consideration for a booking office, but is an issue onboard). It would help if we could auto-populate the details of the original ticket just by scanning it rather than searching for the fare manually.

 

[Adam Williams]

Sorted without any fuss at Marylebone, I'm told - though there was a short wait to find someone who could do it. No on-train inspection.

 

[jamiearmley]

And another thing... Why, on the rare occasion when you might need a one-way change of route excess, do some ticket offices want to charge you the full fare difference, not half the difference?

I don't know how it works on ticket office systems, but on the "on train ticket issuing systems" I use the machine dictates wether it's a full or half excess, based on the details of the new and the old ticket. I can't override that. I've always assumed that the machine logic is based upon the rules for the particular excess being processed.

Perhaps this is similar in ticket offices? Perhaps some systems allow an override, while others don't? I guess it's even possible that some of the excesses we think are legit, and have obtained for years, actually aren't - or conversely, that machine logic is incorrectly programmed?

 

[Krokodil]

I don't know how it works on ticket office systems, but on the "on train ticket issuing systems" I use the machine dictates wether it's a full or half excess, based on the details of the new and the old ticket. I can't override that. I've always assumed that the machine logic is based upon the rules for the particular excess being processed

If it's like the onboard system I use, perhaps they've selected "both legs" rather than "one leg". The machine's logic knows the rules, but if you tell it that the passenger wants to excess both legs, it'll excess both legs. If you tell it "one leg" it'll apply the half-difference/full-difference rule as appropriate to the type of excess.

 

[jamiearmley]

If it's like the onboard system I use, perhaps they've selected "both legs" rather than "one leg"

I'm guessing we use the same onboard system

 

[CyrusWuff]

Thanks - is it the entire thing (letters and numbers) they need to enter, with the issuer prefix?

Nope. There's an option to toggle between ticket number and UTN and it asks for the last five characters of the UTN.

 

[trei2k]

It is so frustrating. It's not just excesses but anything remotely 'complicated', for example a ticket to London International that a member of staff refused to sell me last year.

Someone working in a ticket office really should be an expert, but this really does seem too much to ask these days.

I agree!

I have to admit that I have always had a nice experience with ScotRail staff when asking for slightly more exotic tickets. The response is always: "I've never done this before, but I will try my best for you." Then there is normally a follow up (in a nice curious way) asking questions. If they are unsure, they will always phone other stations for advice. This has applied for London International, All Line Rover, all sorts of Rovers and Rangers from all over the country etc.

There have been a few times where I have had asked for an excess on the train and although it has taken a while - the staff are always happy to do it.

Sorted without any fuss at Marylebone, I'm told - though there was a short wait to find someone who could do it. No on-train inspection.

I'd be raising a complaint about your whole experience - especially the WhatsApp customer service chat. Exceptionally poor.

 

[Egg Centric]

Someone working in a ticket office really should be an expert, but this really does seem too much to ask these days.

Unfortunately it will only get worse. No one with "options" and career progression / safety on their mind is going to get a job at a ticket office now, so the average quality of staff is going to keep decreasing. And so it will be even harder to argue for keeping them open. A vicious cycle which is far too late to stop imo.

 

[janb]

Even if they can't work out the UTN (my TIS doesn't allow alphanumeric entry for example) then just use 00000 (or for my TIS that doesn't allow that either 00001). Mentioned at the start of the iKB Excess Fares at Ticket Office procedure.

 

[Adam Williams]

Response to complaint:

The Customer came to the window with a photo of the ticket on his partner’s phone. (Not the original ticket)

She had the original ticket fulfilled by the online retailer (PDF). It was not a screenshot or photo, nor would that make any difference whatsoever.

My team do know how to excess a ticket from a super off-peak ticket it is quite simple as we do this a lot here in Leamington Spa.

The number we inputted on the MTIS would not recognise the UTN number, we tried 3 times and showed the customer that this is not going through the machine.

If they do it a lot, I would have thought they knew how to switch the mTIS from paper ticket number -> UTN entry.

The customer then got irate saying we need more training on this, I showed him that the number is not going through so I cannot excess the ticket

I did not tell the staff they needed more training at any point in the interaction. I was frustrated for sure, given what I was being told but the extent was that I reiterated multiple times that they could issue an excess - regardless as to whether it was purchased online, and showed them the iKB article in an attempt to show that I wasn't simply talking nonsense. I never raised my voice at any point in the exchange.

Both colleagues who was around the customer at the time have both stated that the gentleman was extremely rude.

The staff were rude, frankly, and couldn't have shown less interest in trying to do what I asked them to do. I dispute that I was "extremely rude".

He asked if they could upgrade on the train or another station I said yes

I did not ask the staff this - I already knew that it was the case, did not think I'd get any further with the staff - and simply told my partner that that was the best course of action.

was so rude when he was leaving the counter saying they need to employ staff who know their tickets

I said nothing about Chiltern's employment of these staff when leaving the counter.

Despite there being a difference in your version versus the staff members version, the Area Manager responsible will consider all details of your complaint and will take any appropriate action they deem to be necessary following the investigation

The staff certainly embellished their account of what happened.

However, with regard to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, please note that It is down to the discretion of the inspector, so although you have identified section 9.5, an inspector can under section 10 issue a penalty if a customer is knowingly travelling with incorrect ticket as per 10.1.3.

10.1.3 specifically says:

>You travel on a train service at a time when your service-specific Ticket is not valid (unless Condition 9.4 applies); or
It was not an Advance ticket.

 

[Hadders]

sounds like a very poor reply from Chiltern.

I hope you’re escalating it with them.

 

[Adam Williams]

I've just asked for a deadlock letter at this point.

No apology in any of it, just blaming me for the outcome of the exchange.

 

[paul1609]

Of course once the LNER ticket simplification is rolled out nationwide excessing effectively goes away. You just refund the advance ticket and purchase an anytime single.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course once the LNER ticket simplification is rolled out nationwide excessing effectively goes away. You just refund the advance ticket and purchase an anytime single.

Single fare pricing gets rid of the vast majority of it because you just buy what you want once you have decided.

 

[WirralLine]

I'm a guard (not Chiltern) and issue quite a few excesses and would have done so in your case (the only ones I can't do are cross-London). I'm pretty sure that I'm the exception though, the process is needlessly complicated and takes a lot of time (which shouldn't be a consideration for a booking office, but is an issue onboard). It would help if we could auto-populate the details of the original ticket just by scanning it rather than searching for the fare manually.

I'm a guard at the same TOC as you, and issue excesses regularly. I also show my trainees how to excess and get them to practice a few times while they're with me. Funnily enough speaking to one of them earlier and he issued his first excess yesterday. I agree it's a painful process to do onboard - I did 3x single to return excesses the other day for a passenger who booked online and realised she had bought singles by mistake.

 

[Adam Williams]

Single fare pricing gets rid of the vast majority of it because you just buy what you want once you have decided.

I wouldn't object to "true" SLP on this basis, for exactly that reason - provided the Super Off-Peak, Off-Peak and Anytime categories of single were kept and adjusted to be half of the existing RTNs.

That's not what'll happen though, they'll get greedy and want the cap that exists in the form of the SVS/OPS gone so that they can do magical dynamic yield management with AI

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2024 ==

I agree it's a painful process to do onboard - I did 3x single to return excesses the other day for a passenger who booked online and realised she had bought singles by mistake.

Definitely think you should just be able to scan the E-Ticket and have it prefill most of the fields that it can from the barcode payload. Requiring manual data entry is a waste of everyone's time for this, really.

 

[MetalMicky]

Every “attempt” at so called ticketing simplification is viewed by the establishment as a new set of opportunities to hoodwink the public by telling them that the system is simpler now, while simultaneously concocting new regulations and hidden costs that frustrate hapless passengers.
The word “flexi” alone, conjures up a vision of freedom and opportunities, rather than the reality of ever more complicated hidden small print that just confuses and antagonises potential customers.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I've just asked for a deadlock letter at this point.

No apology in any of it, just blaming me for the outcome of the exchange.

Dread to think how the interaction would have gone if the original ticket had been issued on a Smartcard! (I am aware that Chiltern don't offer their Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Returns for Smartcard fulfilment for some reason.)