CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[BillStampy]

Doesn't the guard and driver usual swap at Cardiff on them?

Usually, one crew from a Cardiff - Maesteg return journey gets off at Central and the Cardiff - Cheltenham return crew jumps on yes.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I would be interested to know what happens when the regular swaps take place at Chester due to the poor system of looking after the fleet all having to go to Chester, the swapping units is regular. If for example i board a train at Ruabon and i’m going to Bangor and its 197125 i ask to upgrade to Standard Plus and it’s sold to me and I get my big seat. Then we arrive at Chester we swap for example to 197010 and it’s already full because people have boarded it before we arrive. We also change conductor but i have my upgrade and no seat. What happens then?

Then at a minimum you’d be owed a refund for the portion of your journey which you have paid for the upgrade but have not been able to use that facility, so in your example Chester - Bangor.
But if it’s as you because of the ‘poor system’ where a unit is being used to get it to Chester then the conductor between Ruabon and Chester should be more than aware and would only upgrade you to Chester and inform you of the swap happening at Chester.

If the swap takes place last minute because something has occurred then there is no system capable of accounting for and dealing with that.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So travellers should ignore the signage.

But then how clear will it be when the signage is not to be ignored. Just an announcement is a bit weak.

How about charging for standard plus on trains where standard plus exists (or quietly not enforcing it), then not charging on units/services not yet branded up.

It is another case of where a sign or notice is to be ignored sometimes - not very simple is it ?.

 

[Lurcheroo]

So travellers should ignore the signage.

But then how clear will it be when the signage is not to be ignored. Just an announcement is a bit weak.

How about charging for standard plus on trains where standard plus exists (or quietly not enforcing it), then not charging on units/services not yet branded up.

It is another case of where a sign or notice is to be ignored sometimes - not very simple is it ?.

Well it’s not that they should ignore the signage, it’s more that, if you see it and ask the conductor about it they will tell you there’s no charge until it’s fully rolled out so feel free to use the area.

Part of the reason for not choosing to charge on branded units and not on unbranded units is partly due to the fact that it is summer time. Trains are incredibly busy as TFW still don’t have their full new fleet so they’re struggling for capacity on many services and quite simply it’s a sure fire way to unnecessarily frustrate passengers and staff alike.

TFW have taken the passenger focused approach by choosing not to charge until ALL units have branding so that a passenger doesn’t get on the 8:25 from X on Monday, get a free upgrade, then Tuesday get on the 8:25 from X and is expected to pay for that upgrade.

I do think it could be clearer on the website but that wouldn’t help the majority of passengers once faced with the choice of to sit in there or not. Some sort of notice put near the entrance to the STD+ area just saying it’s declassified and may be used without charge could go a long way.
Ultimately if they can still get a seat in standard then they’ve not really ‘lost’ anything. If it’s busy and struggling for seats then the TM could be proactive and tell people but frankly that’s TM dependant and I know some who really do the bare minimum (which I think is sad really as they can be so important to the passenger experience).

I’d always tell people if there were seats spare anywhere and I saw them standing. It was about 50/50 wether or not they would take up the seat or not (some people don’t want to sit by others).

 

[simonmpoulton]

Is there a fault with 197115? Seen it parked up in a relatively unused and overgrown siding near the bridge on the line to Manchester at Chester station for the past couple days!

 

[sd0733]

When was the last time 197101 was in service?

Looks to have arrived on 22nd June at Canton, and not left since.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==

Is there a fault with 197115?

Yes that's also out of use with faults and waiting for parts I believe. Currently acting as an impromptu training unit.

 

[Envoy]

Does any clear branding on the outside denote where the Standard Plus accommodation is available? If a 5 coach (or even 3 coach) train pulls into a station with no clear external branding - such as a yellow line near the roof - then those who wish to travel in this section will dilly and dally looking for it & thus waste time or have to wade through the train once onboard.

We all know that London trains usually have the 1st class accommodation at the London end of the train. What will be the situation with these Standard Plus 197’s? Could the Standard Plus be at either end and won’t these passengers have a worse ride quality sitting near the bogie v those in the middle section?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well it’s not that they should ignore the signage, it’s more that, if you see it and ask the conductor about it they will tell you there’s no charge until it’s fully rolled out so feel free to use the area.

Part of the reason for not choosing to charge on branded units and not on unbranded units is partly due to the fact that it is summer time. Trains are incredibly busy as TFW still don’t have their full new fleet so they’re struggling for capacity on many services and quite simply it’s a sure fire way to unnecessarily frustrate passengers and staff alike.

TFW have taken the passenger focused approach by choosing not to charge until ALL units have branding so that a passenger doesn’t get on the 8:25 from X on Monday, get a free upgrade, then Tuesday get on the 8:25 from X and is expected to pay for that upgrade.

I do think it could be clearer on the website but that wouldn’t help the majority of passengers once faced with the choice of to sit in there or not. Some sort of notice put near the entrance to the STD+ area just saying it’s declassified and may be used without charge could go a long way.
Ultimately if they can still get a seat in standard then they’ve not really ‘lost’ anything. If it’s busy and struggling for seats then the TM could be proactive and tell people but frankly that’s TM dependant and I know some who really do the bare minimum (which I think is sad really as they can be so important to the passenger experience).

I’d always tell people if there were seats spare anywhere and I saw them standing. It was about 50/50 wether or not they would take up the seat or not (some people don’t want to sit by others).

Thanks for the reply. Your right, it would help if there were temporary signs alongside denoting the declassification. I would hope that "Standard Plus" is only enforced when the full fleet is in service not just when the branding is done on the units expected to have it (is it all 3car 197s ?).

 

[Christian Schm]

Well I think the standard plus is reasonably well signed on the trains. I think the problem is that reasonably well signed isn't enough to avoid confusion, as everything beyond standard or first class is new and thus unexpected to virtually all passengers.

I can see where TfW is coming from - they want to make a bit more money, without having to jump through all the hopes of a formal first class offer. (Personally I think the first class regulations are a bit weird anyway. If it is acceptable to provide trains with just 2nd class, why is it compulsory for first class to have a big toilet, when you can for example have bar cars without?)

 

[Lurcheroo]

Thanks for the reply. Your right, it would help if there were temporary signs alongside denoting the declassification. I would hope that "Standard Plus" is only enforced when the full fleet is in service not just when the branding is done on the units expected to have it (is it all 3car 197s ?).

No trouble.
It’s not all 3 cars. There are 12 standard only 3 cars (101-112) and there are 14 standard plus 3 cars (113-126).
There’s only 3 or 4 of the 3 car 197’s left to come into service (excluding 21 Cambrian 2 car units).
So if you mean it in a capacity sense, we’re really waiting on the 756’s to be put into service to help release 197’s back to their intended work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==

Does any clear branding on the outside denote where the Standard Plus accommodation is available? If a 5 coach (or even 3 coach) train pulls into a station with no clear external branding - such as a yellow line near the roof - then those who wish to travel in this section will dilly and dally looking for it & thus waste time or have to wade through the train once onboard.

We all know that London trains usually have the 1st class accommodation at the London end of the train. What will be the situation with these Standard Plus 197’s? Could the Standard Plus be at either end and won’t these passengers have a worse ride quality sitting near the bogie v those in the middle section?

I’m not totally sure what’s on the outside to be honest.

Yes, the ride quality over the bogies is usually worse than the middle of the coach, and that’s where the standard plus area is located. You could also end up with Standard plus in the middle of the formation if the 2 car is coupled that end of the 3 car.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==

I can see where TfW is coming from - they want to make a bit more money, without having to jump through all the hopes of a formal first class offer. (Personally I think the first class regulations are a bit weird anyway. If it is acceptable to provide trains with just 2nd class, why is it compulsory for first class to have a big toilet, when you can for example have bar cars without?)

It’s less they want to jump through the hoops but more that the way the trains have been specced doesn’t meet the criteria and changing them would a huge amount of work, meaning huge disruption to passengers and a lot of money

 

[BillStampy]

Looks as if a Double 153 has escaped, off to Manchester on 1W60, 1730 from Manchester.

It isn't a 150, but it sucks.
Watched this happen at Central as a 197 departs in front of it for Ebbw Vale and one on the other platform for Gloucester

 

[Western 52]

Looks like the 153s on 1W60 are losing a lot of time. 34 late at Bromfield.

 

[Jez]

Looks as if a Double 153 has escaped, off to Manchester on 1W60, 1730 from Manchester.

It isn't a 150, but it sucks.
Watched this happen at Central as a 197 departs in front of it for Ebbw Vale and one on the other platform for Gloucester

Unfortunately does seem to happen very often with that particular service as the diagram starts and ends in Canton. More often than not a 197 replaces the Sprinter for the Cardiff to Manchester part but it looks like no 197s were available today or impacted by the disruption.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2024 ==

Currently on a very warm 197 (197021). I hope this isn't going to be a problem with the air con constantly on these units.

 

[Topological]

Looks as if a Double 153 has escaped, off to Manchester on 1W60, 1730 from Manchester.

It isn't a 150, but it sucks.
Watched this happen at Central as a 197 departs in front of it for Ebbw Vale and one on the other platform for Gloucester

You do wonder what is happening with the 197s, there seem to be a lot which can only operate in South Wales because of mileage/exams etc.

Given that the 16:30 was cancelled from Manchester (on it south of Wilmslow because it was obvious far enough in advance), the 17:30 will need capacity and yet... Looks like that won't make it to Manchester and then you have a 2-car on the 18:30.

Some might thing there is a silent S in TfW (politely being Transport for South Wales).

 

[FD99]

Unfortunately does seem to happen very often with that particular service as the diagram starts and ends in Canton. More often than not a 197 replaces the Sprinter for the Cardiff to Manchester part but it looks like no 197s were available today or impacted by the disruption.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2024 ==

Currently on a very warm 197 (197021). I hope this isn't going to be a problem with the air con constantly on these units.

knock on the drivers door when stopped at a station and ask them if the aircon is on. if the train is picked up in sleep mode, the aircon switches off in the saloon and its not obvious to the driver unless the go to the specific screen. It could also be in Empty Stock Mode too, which also turns the aircon off. but if this was the case the screens would show "not in service". Most drivers don't check these things and just drive. Its not part of any SOPs nor are we told to check, just something some of us do off our own backs. I'm forever taking over units that have the aircon switched out and showing 26+ degrees in the saloon.

 

[Jez]

Anyone know how many 197s they are short of today ? I noticed on RTT that the 0930 has been swapped from a 3 car 197 to a 150 at Cardiff then the 150 does the return working to Cardiff.

There also seems to be quite a few 2 car 197s in place of 3..

 

[sd0733]

Anyone know how many 197s they are short of today ? I noticed on RTT that the 0930 has been swapped from a 3 car 197 to a 150 at Cardiff then the 150 does the return working to Cardiff.

There also seems to be quite a few 2 car 197s in place of 3..

Looks to be 1 2 car and 3 3 cars short of the planned allocations today.

 

[Jez]

Looks to be 1 2 car and 3 3 cars short of the planned allocations today.

Thank you..I see quite a few complaints today on X/Twitter about overcrowding again.

Not helped by a 197 covering a MK4 on 1252 Cardiff to Manchester

 

[simonmpoulton]

Loads of 197’s parked up outside the Chester CAF depot today I noticed. Must have seen at least 4 units outside and 2 were inside! All faulty I guess?

 

[Bayum]

Thank you..I see quite a few complaints today on X/Twitter about overcrowding again.

Not helped by a 197 covering a MK4 on 1252 Cardiff to Manchester

Not helped by it being Manchester Pride.

 

[FD99]

Loads of 197’s parked up outside the Chester CAF depot today I noticed. Must have seen at least 4 units outside and 2 were inside! All faulty I guess?

Yeah, quickly a few have some sort of storm damage too. Maintenance on the units I’ve very poor.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Yeah, quickly a few have some sort of storm damage too. Maintenance on the units I’ve very poor.

Storm damage ?

 

[BillStampy]

197114 went out on 2L61 with only 1 engine working, watched it leave Cardiff full, a few people standing. It didn't take long to fail, sit around for 20-30 minutes and has spent around 1 and a half hours in Miskin, when I passed on 2L63, the lights were seemingly out. 197117 has gone on 1Z99 to rescue it and is now running as far as Bridgend. I saw on the information boards, 6 coaches delayed service to Bridgend.

 

[Western 52]

I saw that on Traksy and guessed it may be a one engine issue. It worked back to Cardiff via Pencoed up loop.

 

[Jez]

197114 went out on 2L61 with only 1 engine working, watched it leave Cardiff full, a few people standing. It didn't take long to fail, sit around for 20-30 minutes and has spent around 1 and a half hours in Miskin, when I passed on 2L63, the lights were seemingly out. 197117 has gone on 1Z99 to rescue it and is now running as far as Bridgend. I saw on the information boards, 6 coaches delayed service to Bridgend.

There looks to be a couple of other 197s being covered by Sprinters today. An all day diagram which did CDF to Milford, Milford to Manchester and then Manchester to Carmarthen but was fortunately a 158 not a 150/153s. There was also a 150 on one of the Pembroke Diagrams.

It seems like 197 availability has been quite poor recently.

 

[Western 52]

A lot of the 3 car sets seem to be on 2 engines, but still keep time.

 

[Anonymous10]

A lot of the 3 car sets seem to be on 2 engines, but still keep time.

I assume this is due to built in redundancy ie a 3 coach can keep to time on 2 engines and a 2 coach can still keep going on one? Admittedly not to time ?

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

 

[Western 52]

Each engine is 523hp, so plenty of power. But is only one axle driven on each car? If so that must risk slipping when other engines are out.

 

[craigybagel]

A lot of the 3 car sets seem to be on 2 engines, but still keep time.

I assume this is due to built in redundancy ie a 3 coach can keep to time on 2 engines and a 2 coach can still keep going on one? Admittedly not to time ?

Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Each engine is 523hp, so plenty of power. But is only one axle driven on each car? If so that must risk slipping when other engines are out.

To be fair, even a 3 car 175 would keep to time on 2 engines - just about, if you thrashed it. A 3 car 197 will keep to time on 2 engines quite easily - except for as Western52 says, they are more liable to slip. 197s are already quite light on their feet and can be a handful in slippy season - it's even worse if you've got an engine out.

 

[simonmpoulton]

A better question is why there are so many engine failures on these units. I don't remember ever being on a 175 with engines out!

Is it poor maintenance, poor quality engines or some other design defect which causes this?