304s/310s & 312s

[Merle Haggard]

Presumably the 1718 was a stopper (see below) as for one thing there would be no point running a second fast immediately behind the first!

The 1718 and the 17.14 had little difference in journey time to Northampton, certainly a lot faster than the tedious AM10s. Once Ledburn was built (high speed crossover South of Leighton Buzzard) stops at Leighton Buzzard could be introduced on trains running Down fast to that point - the old crossover was 20 I think. The 17.18 went S/L from Ledburn.

The timetable was operations-led in those days, around that time there was a gap after the 17.10 (Wolverhampton) and before the 17.25 (Blackpool/Barrow ??? not sure) on the Down Fast from Euston so the operators could achieve the target number of peak fast Northampton trains by running two together

 

[jfollows]

The other two from that timetable were

1. 1B08 17:45 air braked, air-conditioned set, Leighton Buzzard & Bletchley
2. 1B09 18:15 vacuum braked, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley & Milton Keynes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

The timetable was operations-led in those days, around that time there was a gap after the 17.10 (Wolverhampton) and before the 17.25 (Blackpool/Barrow ??? not sure) on the Down Fast from Euston so the operators could achieve the target number of peak fast Northampton trains by running two together

In 1983-84 there was no 17:25, the next service was 1S89 17:30 to Glasgow, which was still 4 minutes behind 1B07 17:18 at Hanslope Junction (with calls at Leighton Buzzard & Milton Keynes on the down fast because 2G05 16:55 Euston-Birmingham was booked at the same time on the down slow). Same in 1984-85. In 1985-86 there was also 1P19 17:28 Euston-Preston (1S89 left 5 minutes later at 17:35, 110 mph) and so in 1985-86 1B07 got out of the way of 1P19 at Bletchley in the timetable (at 17x/55, it still didn't call there), but could probably have used Ledburn Junction at a pinch if it didn't matter which platform was used at Leighton Buzzard.
However this is just a paper timetable, you were there.
EDIT PS Ledburn was 30mph until an upgrade in 2004, and was shown in the timetable for 1B07 in 1986 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...points-line-change.221982/page-2#post-5299264).

 

[Merle Haggard]

Most of the early 80s prangs must have been relatively minor because they were repaired. I am surprised that the October 1984 collision at Wembley did not result in any vehicles being withdrawn. Both units returned to service in their original formations and ran right up to the end on the LTS. The only ones I missed were 310056, 310065 and 310071. The latter had a serious accident at Roade on 31/12/69. Not sure what happened to the other two. 310056 swapped both driving trailers in April 1993. I suspect that it never actually ran in this formation. In September 1994, the 'new' driving trailers were formed up with the motor coach from 310065 to become 310113. The other five vehicles from the two sets went for scrap shortly after.

I didn't know that the Wembley victim was repaired, the heavy damage wasn't just the driving trailer

Not long after the service was introduced here were two mishaps (Up trains encountering derailed Down empty mineral wagon trains) which heavily damaged the second class driving trailers (Milton, 094 & Roade, 071) and it resulted in 094 eventually being formed with a DTC at one end and a DTC with the First permanently declassified at the other. The latter was very popular with those in the know. As part of the rebuilding 094 was fully repainted and was the only AM10 to have the yellow ends extended back over the cab doors - which was quite a long way! - the other AM10s retaining their original paint for years. Helped in identifying it as the one with the de-classified 1st. I visited Wolverton in 1970, and the spare intermediate coaches were inside the building fully repainted. I'm not sure they were ever used again.

AM10s seemed to be involved in more than average serious collisions; another one was an AM10 on the Up meeting head on a Down steel train running on the Up to enter Wolverhampton Steel terminal. There was no escape route for the driver into the saloon, only into the cross vestibule.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

The other two from that timetable were

1. 1B08 17:45 air braked, air-conditioned set, Leighton Buzzard & Bletchley
2. 1B09 18:15 vacuum braked, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley & Milton Keynes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==


In 1983-84 there was no 17:25, the next service was 1S89 17:30 to Glasgow, which was still 4 minutes behind 1B07 17:18 at Hanslope Junction (with calls at Leighton Buzzard & Milton Keynes on the down fast because 2G05 16:55 Euston-Birmingham was booked at the same time on the down slow). Same in 1984-85. In 1985-86 there was also 1P19 17:28 Euston-Preston (1S89 left 5 minutes later at 17:35, 110 mph) and so in 1985-86 1B07 got out of the way of 1P19 at Bletchley in the timetable (at 17x/55, it still didn't call there), but could probably have used Ledburn Junction at a pinch if it didn't matter which platform was used at Leighton Buzzard.
However this is just a paper timetable, you were there.
EDIT PS Ledburn was 30mph until an upgrade in 2004, and was shown in the timetable for 1B07 in 1986 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...points-line-change.221982/page-2#post-5299264).

I now recollect that the 17.45 was indeed booked fast line at Ledburn but in my memory it seemed to cross to s/l there (with resulting delay following an all-stations) very often. Memory is biased towards the unusual so it might well be that statistically it was unusual. it is fair however to say that area controllers regarded the Cobblers as Class 2s (or below ) when it came to regulation, even if they were right time they had to get out of the way of 'Inter-City' trains, we were only 'commuters'.

Possibly the 17.28 Preston was the successor to the Blackpool/Barrow which I mentioned (which obviously divided at Preston).

 

[nw1]

The other two from that timetable were

1. 1B08 17:45 air braked, air-conditioned set, Leighton Buzzard & Bletchley

Interesting they had an air-conditioned set going spare in the evening peak. With InterCity-grade travel, that must have been a go-to service!
Wonder if that one came off an inbound IC service?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

Possibly the 17.28 Preston was the successor to the Blackpool/Barrow which I mentioned (which obviously divided at Preston).

Looks like the 1725 was gone even by 1982 according to the timetable on TImetable World.
Table 65 shows the 1703 to Crewe then next service the 1730 Glasgow (crack express, Preston and Carlisle only within England) and 1735 Manchester. (EBWs not shown on Table 65).
Blackpool had the 1805, but Barrow didn't appear to have a through service from Euston at all, at any point in the day.

Timetable World

timetableworld.com

 

[jfollows]

Interesting they had an air-conditioned set going spare in the evening peak. With InterCity-grade travel, that must have been a go-to service!
Wonder if that one came off an inbound IC service?

Next working 5S22 19:12 Northampton-Euston a. 21:29. 1S22 was the 23:35 Euston-Glasgow. The morning working was 1A73 07:20 Northampton-Euston a. 08:19 (Leighton Buzzard UFL only call) which was worked from 5A73 04:47 Euston DCS-Northampton a. 06:05.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Most of the early 80s prangs must have been relatively minor because they were repaired. I am surprised that the October 1984 collision at Wembley did not result in any vehicles being withdrawn. Both units returned to service in their original formations and ran right up to the end on the LTS. The only ones I missed were 310056, 310065 and 310071. The latter had a serious accident at Roade on 31/12/69. Not sure what happened to the other two. 310056 swapped both driving trailers in April 1993. I suspect that it never actually ran in this formation. In September 1994, the 'new' driving trailers were formed up with the motor coach from 310065 to become 310113. The other five vehicles from the two sets went for scrap shortly after.

From Longworth, the reformations of class 310 were as follows
1967: 094 withdrawn
1967: 095 reformed with TSO 70779 (ex 094)
1969: 066 reformed with DTCOL 76228 from 094, converted to BDTOSL
1970: 071 withdrawn
1971: 059 reformed with DTCOL 76205 from 071
1975: 094 resurrected with BDTSOL 76998 rebuilt from TSO 70756 (ex unit 071), MBSO 62119 (ex 094) TSO 70780 (ex 095) and DTCOL 76193 (ex unit 059)
1990: 310079 and 310088 exchange driving trailers 76213 and 76222
1993: 310056 and 310074 exchange driving trailers 76140 and 76158
1993: 310056, 310061 and 310093 rotate driving trailers 76190 (to 093), 76195 (to 056) and 76227 (to 061)
1994: unit 310113 formed of 76158 and 76195 (unit 056) and 62090 (unit 065, which was disbanded)
2000: 310084 and 310106 (formerly unit 072, by then reduced to 3-car) exchange driving trailers 76206 and 76218

 

[nw1]

Next working 5S22 19:12 Northampton-Euston a. 21:29. 1S22 was the 23:35 Euston-Glasgow. The morning working was 1A73 07:20 Northampton-Euston a. 08:19 (Leighton Buzzard UFL only call) which was worked from 5A73 04:47 Euston DCS-Northampton a. 06:05.

Interesting. I do note that the mid-80s WCML timetables featured some cuts compared to the 1981 timetable so presumably there was enough slack in the fleet to give Northampton commuters an IC experience!

Looking at some marshalling books: it appears that in 1983 and 1984, the 1745 was non-aircon and was part of a self-contained diagram with the 0720 Northampton-Euston.

However in 1982 (when it was one of only two Cobblers) it worked off the 1233 from Blackpool and would form the 0805 to Blackpool next day (which then formed the 1233 back and the 1745 Northampton again). Meanwhile the 0720 Northampton-Euston then formed the 0920 to Carlisle and 1433 back, and then the 0720 the next day.

Can't find evidence of interworking with the 2335 Glasgow in any of these years (unless the marshalling books are wrong).

 

[Merle Haggard]

From Longworth, the reformations of class 310 were as follows
1967: 094 withdrawn
1967: 095 reformed with TSO 70779 (ex 094)
1969: 066 reformed with DTCOL 76228 from 094, converted to BDTOSL
1970: 071 withdrawn
1971: 059 reformed with DTCOL 76205 from 071
1975: 094 resurrected with BDTSOL 76998 rebuilt from TSO 70756 (ex unit 071), MBSO 62119 (ex 094) TSO 70780 (ex 095) and DTCOL 76193 (ex unit 059)
1990: 310079 and 310088 exchange driving trailers 76213 and 76222
1993: 310056 and 310074 exchange driving trailers 76140 and 76158
1993: 310056, 310061 and 310093 rotate driving trailers 76190 (to 093), 76195 (to 056) and 76227 (to 061)
1994: unit 310113 formed of 76158 and 76195 (unit 056) and 62090 (unit 065, which was disbanded)
2000: 310084 and 310106 (formerly unit 072, by then reduced to 3-car) exchange driving trailers 76206 and 76218

Apologies, my reference to '094' as the set with two DTCs was in error for 066, and my comments regarding livery also should have referred to 066. But the 'conversion' from DTC to DTS only consisted of removing the first class labels from the saloon as far as I remember. I think that 066 was the one in the head on collision at Wolverhampton I mentioned. Interestingly, the Inspecting Officer in the report on this (in Railways Archive as 'near Monmore Green') remarks positively upon the strength of the AM10s' structure - it was travelling at about 50 mph when it collided head on with a moving steel train hauled by a cl 47, but damage was pretty much confined to the area in front of the bulkhead (between the driver's vestibule and the passenger saloon). The three other cars of the set returned to service quite quickly.

They certainly seemed accident prone in the early years.

 

[jfollows]

Apologies, my reference to '094' as the set with two DTCs was in error for 066, and my comments regarding livery also should have referred to 066. But the 'conversion' from DTC to DTS only consisted of removing the first class labels from the saloon as far as I remember. I think that 066 was the one in the head on collision at Wolverhampton I mentioned. Interestingly, the Inspecting Officer in the report on this (in Railways Archive as 'near Monmore Green') remarks positively upon the strength of the AM10s' structure - it was travelling at about 50 mph when it collided head on with a moving steel train hauled by a cl 47, but damage was pretty much confined to the area in front of the bulkhead (between the driver's vestibule and the passenger saloon). The three other cars of the set returned to service quite quickly.

They certainly seemed accident prone in the early years.

That re-sparked a faint memory from the 1970s that 066 was the “good one” because of the declassified first class, effectively.

 

[norbitonflyer]

066. But the 'conversion' from DTC to DTS only consisted of removing the first class labels from the saloon as far as I remember.

Must have been some modifications under the floor, as there were technical differences between a DTCOL and a BDTSOL - as indicated by the "B".

 

[Merle Haggard]

Must have been some modifications under the floor, as there were technical differences between a DTCOL and a BDTSOL - as indicated by the "B".

It was a long time ago, but I have a dim memory of the air pump noisily working away under the DTS and presumably this was battery driven when there was no a.c. power supply (e.g., to raise the pan when the air was down). Obviously the battery supplied lighting power through a neutral section but lighting only lasted a few minutes if there was a power cut so I think logically that the batteries were primarily for the air pump. It would make sense to have them together.

All the AM designs must have had batteries but the others don't seem to have a 'B' in the 'detailed' code. 'NG' was used in LH non vestibule open stock but doesn't seem to have been used in the case of e.m.u. either. I think that the 'detailed' code was painted on the coach end but the 'simple' one (e.g DTS) was more generally used operationally.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It was a long time ago, but I have a dim memory of the air pump noisily working away under the DTS and presumably this was battery driven when there was no a.c. power supply (e.g., to raise the pan when the air was down). Obviously the battery supplied lighting power through a neutral section but lighting only lasted a few minutes if there was a power cut so I think logically that the batteries were primarily for the air pump. It would make sense to have them together.

All the AM designs must have had batteries but the others don't seem to have a 'B' in the 'detailed' code. 'NG' was used in LH non vestibule open stock but doesn't seem to have been used in the case of e.m.u. either. I think that the 'detailed' code was painted on the coach end but the 'simple' one (e.g DTS) was more generally used operationally.

I think there was more than the battery, but various auxiliary equipment for which there was no room in the adjecent MBS. Longworth lists all AC clases except AM6 as having a Battery driving trailer next to the motor coach (although when the AM9/1s were extended from 2-car to 4-car the BDTSOL was no longer adjacent the DMBSK). AM6 was the exception, because the pantograph, and presumably some auxiliaries, were in the middle coach, a trailer.

 

[Bikeman78]

From Longworth, the reformations of class 310 were as follows
1967: 094 withdrawn
1967: 095 reformed with TSO 70779 (ex 094)
1969: 066 reformed with DTCOL 76228 from 094, converted to BDTOSL
1970: 071 withdrawn
1971: 059 reformed with DTCOL 76205 from 071
1975: 094 resurrected with BDTSOL 76998 rebuilt from TSO 70756 (ex unit 071), MBSO 62119 (ex 094) TSO 70780 (ex 095) and DTCOL 76193 (ex unit 059)
1990: 310079 and 310088 exchange driving trailers 76213 and 76222
1993: 310056 and 310074 exchange driving trailers 76140 and 76158
1993: 310056, 310061 and 310093 rotate driving trailers 76190 (to 093), 76195 (to 056) and 76227 (to 061)
1994: unit 310113 formed of 76158 and 76195 (unit 056) and 62090 (unit 065, which was disbanded)
2000: 310084 and 310106 (formerly unit 072, by then reduced to 3-car) exchange driving trailers 76206 and 76218

Thanks for this. The British Multiple units: volume 3 shows the 1993 BDTS as a three way swap between 310056, 310061 and 310074. Not sure which is correct.

What was the reason for the swaps in the 1990s? Minor depot prangs? I did think it was to weed out corroded vehicles but none of the sets were withdrawn, apart from 310065, which was not reformed prior to withdrawal, so that can't be the reason.

I'd completely forgotten about the 084/106 swap. That explains why 310106 didn't work on the LTS. I don't recall 310084 being mixed livery so the swapped vehicle must have been repainted. Probably the last to be painted in NSE livery.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

Apologies, my reference to '094' as the set with two DTCs was in error for 066, and my comments regarding livery also should have referred to 066. But the 'conversion' from DTC to DTS only consisted of removing the first class labels from the saloon as far as I remember. I think that 066 was the one in the head on collision at Wolverhampton I mentioned. Interestingly, the Inspecting Officer in the report on this (in Railways Archive as 'near Monmore Green') remarks positively upon the strength of the AM10s' structure - it was travelling at about 50 mph when it collided head on with a moving steel train hauled by a cl 47, but damage was pretty much confined to the area in front of the bulkhead (between the driver's vestibule and the passenger saloon). The three other cars of the set returned to service quite quickly.

They certainly seemed accident prone in the early years.

By the time I rode on them, they were on the LTS and first class had been declassified, so I never clocked that 310066 had it both ends. Did the 310/1 have the first class removed and replaced with standard seats? I seem to recall that only 310112 and 310113, which were renumbered a few years later than the rest, retained declassified first class.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It is rather like the EMU front - AM2 got the near-SR type slab end (again as did the older AM7) but then a design change AM4/5/8 got the sloping ends ............ contemporary AM3 don't count here on cab ends just as they don't count here on windows.

It seems to have been that only Wolverton and some York products had the raked arrangement. Classes 304 and 504 from Wolverton, 305 and 308 from York.

The flat-fronted design was mainly Eastleigh (class 41x, 307, 501), but also Class 302, built at York.

York products had a variety of cab designs, - in addition to the "Eastleigh" 302s and the "Wolverton" 305s and 308s, it produced the more rounded, and varied, designs of classes 309, 310, 312, 42x, and 43x)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

What was the reason for the swaps in the 1990s? Minor depot prangs? I did think it was to weed out corroded vehicles but none of the sets were withdrawn, apart from 310065, which was not reformed prior to withdrawal, so that can't be the reason.

Don't know, but it looks like 056, which lost both its driving trailers to other units, may have been a placemarker for four vehicles not in working order and/or surplus to requirements.

 

[Merle Haggard]

What was the reason for the swaps in the 1990s? Minor depot prangs? I did think it was to weed out corroded vehicles but none of the sets were withdrawn, apart from 310065, which was not reformed prior to withdrawal, so that can't be the reason.

There was a mishap at Hemel Hemel Hempstead about this time. One morning I was in a morning Cobbler on the Up Fast and it was cautioned through Hemel. First, North of the station, a Down Slow AM10 train was derailed onto the Up Slow and South of the station there was an AM10 train on the Up slow derailed onto the Down Slow. It seemed very puzzling, but it turned out a BRUTE tug had conked out on the barrow crossing and luckily or unluckily the two trains were passing each other exactly at this point, so although they derailed they didn't hit each other. But I think there was some damage down the trains caused by the tug (if it was a battery one, it was heavy). Mayne this was the reason - I think 4 sets were involved so possibly there was some swapping so that the easiest-to-repair cars were reformed and put back out quickly.

 

[D7666]

It seems to have been that only Wolverton and some York products had the raked arrangement. Classes 304 and 504 from Wolverton, 305 and 308 from York.

The flat-fronted design was mainly Eastleigh (class 41x, 307, 501), but also Class 302, built at York.

yes, but I suggest still it is time sequence by BR design policy, which was starting to bite then, rather than which works did what - put that lot on the time line of ordering each new type, and you get all the flat fronts first, then all the raked fronts. Sure BR SR EPB and Hap continued past the non SR rake back fronts, but the uits that did were all add ons to earlier orders.

 

[Taunton]

But apropos the Cobblers - were the coaching sets the same ones used for the Cambrian Coast summer Saturday trains?

They were also used by the mid-1980s on a Sunday evening express from Liverpool Lime Street to Euston. Not an oddball operation as I took it on several occasions and it was always such. Still blue/grey livery but with NSE flashes. No idea how (or why) it got to Liverpool, but after the evening arrival at Euston must have gone ecs back to Northampton for Monday morning. I think the loco was an 86 (I would have noticed anything older).

It was the era of weekend "Bargain First", where for a £1 or £2 supplement you got to ride in the otherwise empty first class vehicles, collected en route by the guard. They were nice late Mk1 vehicles, and as most seemed a bit in awe of this type of accommodation, I generally got the compartment to myself.

 

[Merle Haggard]

They were also used by the mid-1980s on a Sunday evening express from Liverpool Lime Street to Euston. Not an oddball operation as I took it on several occasions and it was always such. Still blue/grey livery but with NSE flashes. No idea how (or why) it got to Liverpool, but after the evening arrival at Euston must have gone ecs back to Northampton for Monday morning. I think the loco was an 86 (I would have noticed anything older).

It was the era of weekend "Bargain First", where for a £1 or £2 supplement you got to ride in the otherwise empty first class vehicles, collected en route by the guard. They were nice late Mk1 vehicles, and as most seemed a bit in awe of this type of accommodation, I generally got the compartment to myself.

Very interesting - that explains another 40 year old mystery; why the Cobbler coaches had 'LL' (Liverpool) maintenance depot stickers, which I mentioned in an earlier post. Presumably all the sets cycled round to spend a weekend in Liverpool for maintenance.

The LL stickers appeared about the same time as the small NSE stripes so possibly a result Sectorisation - possibly the London end carriage depots became Inter City dedicated.

 

[Helvellyn]

Very interesting - that explains another 40 year old mystery; why the Cobbler coaches had 'LL' (Liverpool) maintenance depot stickers, which I mentioned in an earlier post. Presumably all the sets cycled round to spend a weekend in Liverpool for maintenance.

The LL stickers appeared about the same time as the small NSE stripes so possibly a result Sectorisation - possibly the London end carriage depots became Inter City dedicated.

Not entirely convinced on that. The Platform 5 books show that Euston Downside (EN) was the depot for the Cobbler sets, certainly from 1988 when sector codes started being included (NNWX being that used for the Cobbler stock and Class 310s; NNWA for locos).

There was a lot of shuffling of coaching stock, inuding depot allocations, in the mid-1980s as sectorisation really took hold and it could be that NSE picked up late build Mark 1s that had been allocated to a range of depots. I'll try dig out some of the old books and look back at the depot allocations of coaches that were allocated to EN by 1988 in say 1985-87.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not entirely convinced on that. The Platform 5 books show that Euston Downside (EN) was the depot for the Cobbler sets, certainly from 1988 when sector codes started being included (NNWX being that used for the Cobbler stock and Class 310s; NNWA for locos).

There was a lot of shuffling of coaching stock, inuding depot allocations, in the mid-1980s as sectorisation really took hold and it could be that NSE picked up late build Mark 1s that had been allocated to a range of depots. I'll try dig out some of the old books and look back at the depot allocations of coaches that were allocated to EN by 1988 in say 1985-87.

All I can say is that every depot sticker on the Mk1s was LL, there were a lot of them, looked out for and never saw any other depots. It's just possible that when sets were laying over at LL at the weekend stickers were applied incorrectly for some reason - the down side shed didn't seem to bother with stickers.

I can clearly remember it because it was so odd!.

And the particular coaches in the sets remained pretty constant throughout the period of operation, from 1974 to 1989, i.e. across Sectorisation. One was 4984 (which I noted because it had been my phone extension number in the freight trains office) always seems to be in a set and also 4948, 4936, 35455. Another set had a run; 4996 (I think) certainly 4997,4998,4999,5000,5001 possibly 5002 too. Numbers stuck in your mind seeing them every day, and on the down, we agreed to congregate in a particular coach by number. the coaches that returned in NSE livery were usually ones that had previously been in the sets.

I can't remember whether the third set (the fourth working was an air-con set) was formed before or after Sector allocation but this might have been a factor to building up the 4996-5002 series


Interestingly, many of these coaches are still around, either with the main line excursion operators or on heritage railways. 100 m.p.h. maintenance and low daily mileage were a factor, I guess.

 

[D7666]

Stickers are not proof of allocation.

It was (and still is not) not unknown for cranks to place another depot stickers (freely sold) on items of rolling stock.

Anyway, AFAIK Euston downside carriage shed was not a maintenance shed only a cleaning facility; almost certainly the cars were allocated somewhere else for maintenance - although I would suggest Stonebridge Park, unless there were some change over cycling to Edge Hill.

Sectorisation raised a number of oddballs where public info making its way in the ABC Books Of Numbers was not always what it was on the ground. An example of that was allocating W.Mids EMU to Soho before Soho had any maintenance facility - in 'old BR days' Soho did not, there were not even any covered roads there; units were still maintained as they always were at Bletchley.

I remember there was a tendency in the WMids to assume that any London based LMR Mk1 vac set was a 'cobbler' set but there were other sets deployed on other work. Mention of Sundays evening express upthread - there were routine FO and SuO unadvertised reliefs both ways between Euston and Liverpool / Manchester - more so FO than SuO (due to SuO engineering works) - Birmingham got more 1A9x / 1G9x on a Sunday and rarely any on a Friday.

These ran in mostly the same paths each week and were usually 1A90 and 1F90/1H90 upwards as needed. And these trains could not have been actual 'cobbler' sets since they were on the road at the same time the 'cobblers' were, from anytime after about 10:00 (ECS positioning) to 22:00.

Early 1980s there was a spectacular bit of LM nonsense most Fridays following in true LMR "region of perfect balance" theory *** where ECS 5F9X Stonebridge to Lime Street to work 1A9X to Liverpool used to pass at Long Lawford +++ 5A9Z Edge Hill to Euston to work 1A9Z to Liverpool.



*** blame D T J Rollason for that; if you don't know who he was, well...... you were not around at the time then

+++ so now you know why I remember this one

 

[Helvellyn]

All I can say is that every depot sticker on the Mk1s was LL, there were a lot of them, looked out for and never saw any other depots. It's just possible that when sets were laying over at LL at the weekend stickers were applied incorrectly for some reason - the down side shed didn't seem to bother with stickers.

I can clearly remember it because it was so odd!.

And the particular coaches in the sets remained pretty constant throughout the period of operation, from 1974 to 1989, i.e. across Sectorisation. One was 4984 (which I noted because it had been my phone extension number in the freight trains office) always seems to be in a set and also 4948, 4936, 35455. Another set had a run; 4996 (I think) certainly 4997,4998,4999,5000,5001 possibly 5002 too. Numbers stuck in your mind seeing them every day, and on the down, we agreed to congregate in a particular coach by number. the coaches that returned in NSE livery were usually ones that had previously been in the sets.

I can't remember whether the third set (the fourth working was an air-con set) was formed before or after Sector allocation but this might have been a factor to building up the 4996-5002 series


Interestingly, many of these coaches are still around, either with the main line excursion operators or on heritage railways. 100 m.p.h. maintenance and low daily mileage were a factor, I guess.

So interesting with the numbers you recall because as you say they do stick in the mind if you see the same coaches week after week.

Looking at the 1984 pocket book BSK 35455 is allocated to EN and remains so until 1990 combined volume (I haven't checked the 1991 one). By then it's also in NSE colours and allocated to the NNWX sub sector.

4936 was LL in 1984, EN in 1985, 1986 (gained NSE livery that year), 1987, 1988 (NNWX pool), 1989

4948 was DY in 1984, 1985, CP in 1986, DY in 1987, 1988 (InterCity Charter pool), OY in 1989

4984 was LL in 1984, 1985, EN in 1986, CF in 1987, HT in 1988 (InterCity Charter pool), OY in 1989

4996 was DY in 1984, 1985 (in InterCity and one of the prototype refurbished Mk 1s)

4997 was WB in 1984, 1985, MV in 1986, NL in 1987, HT in 1988 (InterCity Charter pool), OY in 1989

4998 was EN in 1984, 1985, LL in 1986, MA in 1987, 1988 (InterCity Charter pool), OY in 1989

4999 was LL in 1984, WB in 1985, EN in 1986, MA in 1987, 1988 (InterCity Charter pool), OY in 1989

5000 was MA in 1984, 1985, EN in 1986, 1987 (gained NSE livery that year), 1988 (NNWX pool), 1989

5001 was DY in 1984, 1985 (in InterCity and one of the prototype refurbished Mk 1s)

5002 was DY in 1984, 1985, CP in 1986, MA in 1987, 1988 (InterCity Charter pool), OY in 1989


So as sectorisation kicked in only three of your regular coaches remained on the Master Cobbler services - 4936, 5000 and 35455.

The 1984 pocket shows a lot of 49xx/50xx TSOs allocated to LL. I think 1983/84 was when regional allocations to depot allocations began as part of the sector changes. So if costs were being assigned maybe LL was keen to badge its assets and many moved about but were not restickered.

InterCity seemed to have the pick of stock, so a lot of late build Mark 1s ending up with them makes sense even if in the days of regional allocations they may have been used on services such as the Master Cobblers.

The 1990 combined volume has 51 TSOs, 16 CKs and 7 BSKs all allocated to EN and in the NNWX pool!



To come to topic on EMUs. The 1988 Platform 5 Combined Volume was the first to have sector allocations for stock, and in those first two years Provincial had stock assigned by service groups as well.

Class 317

• five allocated to BY, pool NNWX - 304/311/323/332/336

Class 310

• one withdrawn - 071
• seven allocated to IL, pool NGEX - 050/052/065/080/084/087/091
• eight allocated to BY, pool PEMX - 046/047/057/063/073/078/081/083
• 33 allocated to BY, pool NNWX - rest of fleet

Class 304

• nine allocated to LG, pool PEMX - 001-007/043/045
• fourteen allocated to LG, pool PMSX - 008-015/036/037/039-042
• twelve allocated to CE, pool PMSX - 020/021/023/024/027-030/032-035
• three allocated to CE, pool PMOX - 016/017/019
• seven withdrawn - 018/022/025/026/031/038/044

Class 303

• twelve allocated to LG, pool PMSX - 036/041/048-050/053/057/060/066/067/078/082 (all in GMPTE Orange & Brown)

Sector Codes

• NGEX - Network South East - Great Eastern
• NNWX - Network South East - London & North Western
• PEMX - Provincial - East & West Midlands
• PMOX - Provincial - Merseyrail Other
• PMSX - Provincial - Manchester South

Depot Codes

• BY - Bletchley
• CE - Crewe Electric Depot
• CP - Crewe Carriage Shed
• DY - Derby Etches Park
• EN - Euston Downside
• HT - Heaton
• IL - Ilford
• LG - Manchester Longsight Electric Depot
• LL - Liverpool Edge Hill
• MA - Manchester Longsight Carriage Depot
• MV - Manchester Red Bank
• NL - Neville Hill
• OY - Oxley
• WB - Wembley

 

[Magdalia]

They were also used by the mid-1980s on a Sunday evening express from Liverpool Lime Street to Euston. Not an oddball operation as I took it on several occasions and it was always such. Still blue/grey livery but with NSE flashes. No idea how (or why) it got to Liverpool, but after the evening arrival at Euston must have gone ecs back to Northampton for Monday morning. I think the loco was an 86 (I would have noticed anything older).

1H82 has 1A42 1810 Liverpool-Euston shown as vacuum braked stock. In 1H83 it is retimed to 1800.

Neither 1H82 or 1H83 have a balancing Euston-Liverpool formed of vacuum braked stock.

 

[D7666]

I used to add the regular unadvertised WCML reliefs into 1H8x where they consistently worked over multiple weeks in each timetable; these were all vac. In my 1H84 I find :

FO 1A90 0755 LL EN
FO 1P90 1750 EN PN
FO 1P92 1855 EN PN
FO 1F91 1155 EN LL
FO 1A91 1535 LL EN
FO 1F90 1455 EN LL
FO 1H90 1345 EN MR
SO 1A99 1935 LL EN
Sun 1F90 blurr EN LL
FO (and other SX days) 1Z98 1245 EN GW

Unfortunately as the headcode books were an integral part of travel and battered, that last entry is blurred by water/beer/tea stains, I /think/ from memory it was something like 1400.

That 1H90 had a return Up working but I have no note of it in 1H84.

1Z98 equivalent FO in earlier timetables had a Up opposite train too but again no notes anywhere; for some inexplicable reason this pair were more often than not 82s as opposed to 81/83/85s - a statistical freak no doubt.

There were also routine 1G9x Sun EN NS two each way out and backs that ran on dates when there was diversion running past16:00

Before anyone dives in and tries to balance that lot with each other and or with permanent timetable trains, that will not work; these trains did not all run every day in question, including different mixes of Up but not Down and v.v.; all sorts of permutation operated, along with others not listed. Also some headcodes were re-used week on week if another path were used, or, especially with the Up 1A9x numbers, whatever operated on a certain Friday were 90,91,92, etc in time order, not fixed to specifics. You need to check the W1 notice each week for this gen.

 

[Taunton]

I remember there was a tendency in the WMids to assume that any London based LMR Mk1 vac set was a 'cobbler' set but there were other sets deployed on other work. Mention of Sundays evening express upthread - there were routine FO and SuO unadvertised reliefs both ways between Euston and Liverpool / Manchester

I'll leave the fine detail to you lot, but a distinct feature of this Liverpool to London scheduled service was NSE flashes on the blue/grey vehicles. Must have been after June 1986 when NSE started.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Silly question but possibly showing my (lack of) age - when you say unadvertised relief, I presume that means not in the public timetable, but would be publicised on station departure boards etc?

 

[eastwestdivide]

Pretty much, yes. Would often run a little ahead of the main service. I caught a Manchester-Euston relief formed of electric loco and Mk1s in 1980-ish, only knew it was running when I looked at the departure boards. Regretted it when I fancied a cuppa, as no buffet.
I think they were generally announced/displayed as “relief service” or “additional service”.

 

[JonathanH]

The 1990 combined volume has 51 TSOs, 16 CKs and 7 BSKs all allocated to EN and in the NNWX pool!

By the end of the year, they had all moved to Old Oak Common, to replace the compartment Mark 1s in use on the Thames services.

Likewise, the facelifted Mark 2s from the Cambridge line moved to Old Oak Common to replace the unfacelifted Mark 2s on Thames services.

With this being the last substantial fleet of vacuum braked stock it was in demand for preservation when NSE finished with it in 1992, and some also ended up with West Coast Railway Company.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The West Coast involvement came via the IC charter unit. When we had finished with them at OC, David Ward wanted the best Mk 1 vehicles for the Jacobite. As I was paying for the enhanced redundancy for the OOC staff via stock sales, I pleaded with him for a vehicle swap. He gave me the Heaton football set (minus the BSK) to sell and keep the funds.

I remember that Heaton set well - threadbare Trojan trim in some vehicles, a real contrast to the NSE sets! It was the last set I ever saw on BR in Trojan. The Cobbler sets came to us from Euston Downside and they didn’t do their No 7 exams that well - the amount of broken buckeye support pins and other components we found on arrival. Goodness knows when they had last split the sets. I still have a double fractured piece of pin - I used it as a paperweight on my desk for years.

Getting back to the AM10 units, I really did like them for a fast exit at Euston. As you came into the platform, the door would be opened and those nearest the door would be getting onto the stepboard so they could jump off as it came to a stand and get past the ticket collectors before the mob descended on them.

Working trackside on the GN and you could hear the 312 units a fair distance away with that whistling sound they made when they were moving at speed.

 

[Bevan Price]

Stickers are not proof of allocation.

It was (and still is not) not unknown for cranks to place another depot stickers (freely sold) on items of rolling stock.


*** blame D T J Rollason for that; if you don't know who he was, well...... you were not around at the time then

+++ so now you know why I remember this one

The late "Wellington" ???