"Man entered train drivers cabin, switched off breaks and 'began moving controls'"

[deltic]

One of my school colleagues drove a DMU for a few yards at Piccadilly nearly 50 years ago in the morning peak - it's not a new issue

 

[Towers]

I'd suggest that at plenty of London termini trains are left unattended and unlocked. Unless drivers are specifically told to lock a cab door (eg with a T-key) then the default state would be unlocked and if there's no driver in the cab then they are unattended and unlocked.

I disagree; the default is that cab doors are either deemed secure because access is via some device which is not intended for public use, or the doors self lock. No train is intended to be left in such a manner that an unauthorised person can just walk up and push the door open, the railway has a security protocol (flawed though it is). I imagine the cab doors on a Class 92 require locking with a carriage key on exit (happy to be proved wrong), which would be a basic expectation of any member of staff leaving the cab unattended. I’m not suggesting that is always adhered to, but the assumption would be that cabs are left secure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

At my old place about 80% of cabs were left unlocked at terminus stations without a driver. To the extent many drivers would try to open the cab without a T key first before getting it out.

That’s sloppy staff, not a local instruction!

 

[12LDA28C]

I disagree; the default is that cab doors are either deemed secure because access is via some device which is not intended for public use, or the doors self lock. No train is intended to be left in such a manner that an unauthorised person can just walk up and push the door open, the railway has a security protocol (flawed though it is). I imagine the cab doors on a Class 92 require locking with a carriage key on exit (happy to be proved wrong), which would be a basic expectation of any member of staff leaving the cab unattended. I’m not suggesting that is always adhered to, but the assumption would be that cabs are left secure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

The depressing of a handle on a closed Class 92 cab door to gain access is no different to the turning of a 'butterfly' switch on the outside of a coach next to the cab door as far as not being 'intended for public use' as per your quote. They shouldn't have to be physically locked as well, to prevent access by miscreants with nefarious intent.

 

[Towers]

The depressing of a handle on a closed Class 92 cab door to gain access is no different to the turning of a 'butterfly' switch on the outside of a coach next to the cab door as far as not being 'intended for public use' as per your quote. They shouldn't have to be physically locked as well, to prevent access by miscreants with nefarious intent.

However I rather suspect the 92 has a separate lock, which is intended to be used as such; there is no such further lock on most ‘butterfly’ valves!

 

[Vespa]

He wouldn't have got far as I doubt he would have understood how to use the DSD pedal, AWS and TPWS, the brakes would come on quite quickly and need to be reset.

The signaller would have noticed something out of course is happening and set signal to danger to trip the in cab safety system.

 

[43066]

I’m not suggesting that is always adhered to, but the assumption would be that cabs are left secure.

That would be the wrong assumption for various types of stock at some locations.

 

[norbitonflyer]

He wouldn't have got far as I doubt he would have understood how to use the DSD pedal, AWS and TPWS, the brakes would come on quite quickly and need to be reset.

The signaller would have noticed something out of course is happening and set signal to danger to trip the in cab safety system.

No TPWS 50 Years ago, and even
AWS was not universal. If he knew enough get it moving he may have also known how to operate the DSD and cancel the AWS.

 

[357]

That’s sloppy staff, not a local instruction!

Agreed!

 

[Vespa]

No TPWS 50 Years ago, and even
AWS was not universal. If he knew enough get it moving he may have also known how to operate the DSD and cancel the AWS.

This incident is recent so it will have a TPWS 1 or TPWS 2 even older loco have it retrofitted.

Even if he knew how to operate it, his path would be blocked either SPAD stop or trap points.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I'd suggest that at plenty of London termini trains are left unattended and unlocked. Unless drivers are specifically told to lock a cab door (e.g. with a T-key) then the default state would be unlocked and if there's no driver in the cab then they are unattended and unlocked.

What utter bullocks. Certainly at Northern any time a train is left unattended the cab must be secured, i.e. all doors and windows locked. I can't imagine other TOCs take a significantly more lax view to security!

 

[43066]

What utter bullocks. Certainly at Northern any time a train is left unattended the cab must be secured, i.e. all doors and windows locked. I can't imagine other TOCs take a significantly more lax view to security!

The poster you quoted wasn’t discussing Northern, though. I have signed several London terminals where train cabs are routinely left unlocked. It probably isn’t ideal but equally, as we have seen on another thread, the relevant keys can be purchased on eBay so locking cab doors is hardly a foolproof security measure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2024 ==

Even if he knew how to operate it, his path would be blocked either SPAD stop or trap points.

What is a “SPAD stop”? If you mean TPWS it isn’t present at all locations.

 

[Deepgreen]

Man entered train drivers cabin, switched off brakes and 'began moving controls'

Detectives are investigating a report of someone 'endangering people on the railway'

www.lancs.live

Press report today of a man entering a train cab at Preston station and messing with the controls.
Perhaps relevant considering the recent threads about availability of keys?



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

And please don't moan about the spelling in the title - that's a quote from the news report

Poor journalism, then.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2024 ==

It's a common mistake. Also in the past tense, I broke instead of I braked. A lot of people don't seem to know the word brake exists.

An appalling number of people have a very poor grasp of English, even today.

 

[skyhigh]

The signaller would have noticed something out of course is happening and set signal to danger to trip the in cab safety system.

Even if he knew how to operate it, his path would be blocked either SPAD stop or trap points.

I'm not sure you understand how TPWS works or it's limitations.

There are plenty of signals on the network with nothing in place to stop a train.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

To be fair to Inky, policies and attitudes vary quite widely that could even surprise drivers from other companies.

As I was going to say in the other thread, I think we’re only one serious incident/terrorist attack away from security being taken a lot more seriously as an industry. It has always surprised me how many traction are only T-key lock to access the cab. I get old traction are like that but it surprises me new traction coming through are like that too.

Oh and Great Northern do run into London

 

[signed]

As I was going to say in the other thread, I think we’re only one serious incident/terrorist attack away from security being taken a lot more seriously as an industry. It has always surprised me how many traction are only T-key lock to access the cab. I get old traction are like that but it surprises me new traction coming through are like that too.

Absolutely. Same with airplane cockpits after 9/11 where they are locked shut every time (that has caused GermanWings 9525 being such a disaster)

 

[12LDA28C]

To be fair to Inky, policies and attitudes vary quite widely that could even surprise drivers from other companies.

As I was going to say in the other thread, I think we’re only one serious incident/terrorist attack away from security being taken a lot more seriously as an industry. It has always surprised me how many traction are only T-key lock to access the cab. I get old traction are like that but it surprises me new traction coming through are like that too.

Oh and Great Northern do run into London

What kind of new tamper- and terrorist-proof security / lock should 'new' traction be fitted with? Bearing in mind that various different manufacturers supply stock to UK operators, would a standard universal key be approved or should a different key be required dependent on type of train, for added 'security'? That's gonna be a lot of keys for some drivers to carry around.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What kind of new tamper- and terrorist-proof security / lock should 'new' traction be fitted with? Bearing in mind that various different manufacturers supply stock to UK operators, would a standard universal key be approved or should a different key be required dependent on type of train, for added 'security'? That's gonna be a lot of keys for some drivers to carry around.

Some sort of electronic lock would be a good plan. Master keys per class could exist in the event of failure but be kept under high security at the depot, and ideally be "security keys" (e.g. Master Lock) to be hard to copy.

New speculative thread to speculate on options: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-should-trains-be-secured.272054/

 

[signed]

That's gonna be a lot of keys for some drivers to carry around.

A universal Master secure key per-driver would work. Electronic locks is a very bad idea.

 

[12LDA28C]

A universal key per-driver would work. You would then have a master key for the whole fleet in high security storage.

And how is that any more secure than a T-key, given that people seem to be able to get hold of such items relatively easily on the Internet?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2024 ==

Some sort of electronic lock would be a good plan. Master keys per class could exist in the event of failure but be kept under high security at the depot, and ideally be "security keys" (e.g. Master Lock) to be hard to copy.

New speculative thread to speculate on options: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-should-trains-be-secured.272054/

And if the failure happens elsewhere than 'at the depot'? What happens then? Train cancelled, I assume.

 

[signed]

And how is that any more secure than a T-key, given that people seem to be able to get hold of such items relatively easily on the Internet?

If you have a different key per-driver (ideally keyed differently), you could limit the leak possibilty and mandate the return of the key after both the end of service (to prevent loss/theft outside of employment) and at the end of the crewmember employment.

Pretty much the same functionnment as a digital employee ID tag that is returned at the end of employment.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Depends how much he knows.

Think about that Alaska airlines plane that an enthusiast hijacked or Thomas Farooki the enthusiast who stole a bus...

A friend of mine knew someone who, having missed his last bus home, 'borrowed' one from another route and drove off, only to belly it on a hump-back bridge; he legged it and wasn't caught. This would have been sometime in the 1960s. To return to the original subject, have there been instances when an unauthorised person has driven off a train either from a station or a depot? If there were, what were the consequences?

 

[12LDA28C]

If you have a different key per-driver, you could limit the leak possibilty and mandate the return of the key after both the end of service and at the end of the crewmember employment.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you referring to a physical key, made of metal or an electronic pass or similar? If it's a physical key, how would every driver have a different one to fit the same lock on a train?

 

[PudseyBearHST]

What kind of new tamper- and terrorist-proof security / lock should 'new' traction be fitted with? Bearing in mind that various different manufacturers supply stock to UK operators, would a standard universal key be approved or should a different key be required dependent on type of train, for added 'security'? That's gonna be a lot of keys for some drivers to carry around.

Just proper cab (“Kaba”) keys which are a lot more secure. T-key and Master keys are not secure at all considering how they are used so widely on the railway and how you could use common household items that could be used as a makeshift.

 

[Nym]

A universal Master secure key per-driver would work. Electronic locks is a very bad idea.

So that’s why TfL are rolling them out on all of LULs fleet…?

 

[signed]

how would every driver have a different one to fit the same lock on a train?

There are locks where you can have multiple master-keys. A driver key would be one of the master key.

physical key, made of metal

Yes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2024 ==

So that’s why TfL are rolling them out on all of LULs fleet…?

I hope the emergency processes when the electronic systems break are very solid and reliable then. I am all for technolgy, but metal tends not to break as easily as a electronic system.

 

[43066]

If you have a different key per-driver (ideally keyed differently), you could limit the leak possibilty and mandate the return of the key after both the end of service (to prevent loss/theft outside of employment) and at the end of the crewmember employment.

Pretty much the same functionnment as an employee ID, except for the return at the end of service part.

That’s going to be totally unworkable and inconvenient. What happens if a driver finishes their shift other than at their depot, for example?

Soon enough they would end up on eBay.

 

[signed]

Soon enough they would end up on eBay.

Sure, but that would be theft then, with the consequences that go with it. Especially if still in employment. A T-Key is easily reproducible, a security key isn't easily reproducible.

 

[yorksrob]

A friend of mine knew someone who, having missed his last bus home, 'borrowed' one from another route and drove off, only to belly it on a hump-back bridge; he legged it and wasn't caught. This would have been sometime in the 1960s.

Sounds like an episode of Heartbeat

 

[lyndhurst25]

A friend of mine knew someone who, having missed his last bus home, 'borrowed' one from another route and drove off, only to belly it on a hump-back bridge; he legged it and wasn't caught. This would have been sometime in the 1960s.

I remember a similar incident where it was a road-roller that got “borrowed”. The local police followed in hot pursuit (at 2mph) but soon realised that there was little they could do to stop him. Eventually he tried to do a runner, but managed to break his leg jumping out of the cab.

 

[island]

There are locks where you can have multiple master-keys. A driver key would be one of the master key.

That's... not how locks work.