Toiletless trains blamed for forced door openings

[Bikeman78]

According to Arthur D Little's report, 2 Passengers first Egressed on 2M48 which was nearest to Platform 4 albeit moving slowly. That was a Class 465 unit with toilet facilities although I do believe the toilet on one set wasn't working properly but was still useable for some time and this was the first set not the rear set where the two passengers first Egressed and might I add within 29mins of the train initially arriving at Lewisham.

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The report quoted below:

I was thinking of the first egress on to the track. I had completely forgotten the people bailed out of 2M48 before it even cleared the platform. They probably took the view that walking or getting a bus would be quicker. As it turned out, they were right! It had already taken 29 minutes to move less than 200 metres. The first egress on to the track was 2M50 after 63 minutes. That train had no toilets and was metres from the platform ramp at Lewisham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2024 ==

How about the people who want to actually get on a very busy train like the 345s in the COS during peak times, which would undoubtedly be displaced if the said amount of toilets required were to reduce capacity heavily?

Adding toilets to the 345s for a case of long stranding which isvery much a red herring, just doesn't make sense. There are other options you have toward Reading from the COS and toward Shenfield again from the COS that have onboard toilet facilities but also the speed for certain travels deemed long enough to "require" toilets on the Elizabeth Line.

Where would a toilet and its electronics and tank go? Assuming you put one toilet in Car 5, it would need to be a large, accessible toilet for wheelchair passengers to use but would undoubtedly make access to one of the three doors, let alone the walk-through space, dangerously cramped. The 720s have only two doors, as does most other stock with toilets, as they weren't expected to deal with the intensity of passenger flow the 345s do.

Assuming you do find a place for a tank and somehow logistically place the accessible toilet and one other toilet, it still doesn't cover that the trains' batteries will be much further depleted in a stranded situation of sufficient duration.

Adding more batteries on top of the added weight already from the toilets, their tanks, and electronics, plus the very reduced capacity for the options that already exist, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense, and I'm barely listing the issues.

The 700s are a similar walk through high capacity unit with a universal access toilet. I have never considered it to be a problem. Some of the trailers on the 345s have very little underfloor equipment. So in theory, there is space for batteries and tanks under those vehicles.

But I agree with the general view of the discussion that getting people off the train more quickly is the better option. One post upthread mentioned that LU is generally faster at detraining because platform staff are PTS trained. So why not do the same with National Rail station staff?

 

[Horizon22]

But I agree with the general view of the discussion that getting people off the train more quickly is the better option. One post upthread mentioned that LU is generally faster at detraining because platform staff are PTS trained. So why not do the same with National Rail station staff?

Well for a start there's no such thing as "National Rail station staff" of course. Each TOC manages their own staff, some of whom will be agency staff at smaller stations. I think very few station staff have PTS and many don't even have dispatch licences any more. It's turned into much more of a customer service role.

I imagine the real answer "because money" and station staff are not as high quality/highly skilled as in the 'past', primarily because 99% of the time they do not need to be.

 

[WAB]

But I agree with the general view of the discussion that getting people off the train more quickly is the better option. One post upthread mentioned that LU is generally faster at detraining because platform staff are PTS trained. So why not do the same with National Rail station staff?

Yes, this all boils down to an unwillingness to train staff at various levels with operational competencies in case of incidents. This was from sectorisation onwards but particularly worsened during privatisation. It's cheaper and means less hassle finding the sort of people who are good at being customer-facing and dealing with operational issues.

LU CSAs often have considerable operational responsibilities, and station supervisors more so. This contrasts with few NR staff being trusted to dispatch let alone do anything else connected to operations. Again, the number of managers with operational competencies continues to be forced down with a worsening reliance on MOMs and similar doing all the legwork. When you need multiple trained staff at several locations simultaneously, it simply doesn't work.

 

[ShadowKnight]

How did the GWR strike that day affect the response to this incident and hence the delays and ultimate failures of evacuating the trains in a timely manner?

Would some staff have been asked to cross the picket line to help resolve the incident?

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Returning to the 'speeding up evacuation' point, the report at the time that the procedure for evacuation onto the GWML involved some sort of "counting them out when leaving the train/counting them on arrival at the platform" procedure, which required responsible individuals to be at both locations and presumably a few places enroute to prevent people getting lost (particularly if there is no trackside lighting). As we know, not all GWML stations will necessarily be staffed... and only the GW IEPs will have conductors.

How, in practice, was that ever supposed to happen on the GWML during a winter evening in real-life conditions?

Another aspect of 'Metro meets Mainline', perhaps?

If all lines are blocked and the OHLE was off on all tracks (the wiring of the line seems be such that this is inevitable), what is supposed to be the procedure? If the OHLE fault cannot be corrected within eg. 45mins, shouldn't evacuation then be mandatory given that some pax at least are quite likely to have self-evacuated anyway by then.....?

 

[trainophile]

A bit off topic but this morning there was an item on the radio (was half asleep so didn't really take it all in) about what can be done to revive "the High Street", and one of the things mention was provision of toilet facilities. Perhaps the new government will be a bit more aware of the lack of such, since councils started closing them all to save money.

Several years ago there was discussion about reviving the High Street, including suggestions like having walk-in medical centres. I said then that there's only two things needed to get older folk back out shopping - free public toilets conveniently placed, and plenty of seating to take a rest between shops.

 

[Haywain]

A bit off topic but this morning there was an item on the radio (was half asleep so didn't really take it all in) about what can be done to revive "the High Street", and one of the things mention was provision of toilet facilities. Perhaps the new government will be a bit more aware of the lack of such, since councils started closing them all to save money.

Several years ago there was discussion about reviving the High Street, including suggestions like having walk-in medical centres. I said then that there's only two things needed to get older folk back out shopping - free public toilets conveniently placed, and plenty of seating to take a rest between shops.

That was about what businesses think is needed to revive the high street. As businesses that is something that they could choose to provide, isn't it?

 

[etr221]

Well for a start there's no such thing as "National Rail station staff" of course. Each TOC manages their own staff, some of whom will be agency staff at smaller stations. I think very few station staff have PTS and many don't even have dispatch licences any more. It's turned into much more of a customer service role.

I would interpret "National Rail station staff" as the staff the various elements that make up "National Rail" (Network Rail, TOCs (including, as appropriate, LO, LU, etc), their contractos, etc.) have on stations. Whose duties - and consequent training - should include what they will need to do when it all falls apart.

Returning to the 'speeding up evacuation' point, the report at the time that the procedure for evacuation onto the GWML involved some sort of "counting them out when leaving the train/counting them on arrival at the platform" procedure, which required responsible individuals to be at both locations and presumably a few places enroute to prevent people getting lost (particularly if there is no trackside lighting). As we know, not all GWML stations will necessarily be staffed... and only the GW IEPs will have conductors.

How, in practice, was that ever supposed to happen on the GWML during a winter evening in real-life conditions?

Another aspect of 'Metro meets Mainline', perhaps?

If all lines are blocked and the OHLE was off on all tracks (the wiring of the line seems be such that this is inevitable), what is supposed to be the procedure? If the OHLE fault cannot be corrected within eg. 45mins, shouldn't evacuation then be mandatory given that some pax at least are quite likely to have self-evacuated anyway by then.....?

Target times for evacuations of an hour or so have been mentioned - it must be remembered that from the passengers point of view, this time started when their train stopped. So my view is that if a train stops out of course, away from a station, then - if its not moving (or clearly about to) within ten or fifteen minutes, then train crew and signallers should be escalating the incident, to plan and prepare for evacuation (so activating the gold/silver/bronze command structure, calling out MoMs, whatever other resouces are needed, etc.) - by then you're down to 45 minutes, and the clock is ticking - better call people out early (and maybe stand them down) than too late.

 

[Edsmith]

A bit off topic but this morning there was an item on the radio (was half asleep so didn't really take it all in) about what can be done to revive "the High Street", and one of the things mention was provision of toilet facilities. Perhaps the new government will be a bit more aware of the lack of such, since councils started closing them all to save money.

Several years ago there was discussion about reviving the High Street, including suggestions like having walk-in medical centres. I said then that there's only two things needed to get older folk back out shopping - free public toilets conveniently placed, and plenty of seating to take a rest between shops.

I think a bit more than that will be needed to revive 'the High Street' but anyway there's all sorts of practical problems about installing toilets on Elizabeth Line trains not least of all a reduction in capacity.

 

[Falcon1200]

How, in practice, was that ever supposed to happen on the GWML during a winter evening in real-life conditions?

Indeed. There could be any number of instructions/directions/standards laid down for timescales for evacuating stranded trains, but the key factor will always be staff availability. At Paddington, multiple trains were stranded, not at platforms, in darkness; Requiring staff on the ground to assist passengers to detrain, not easy getting from train door level onto the ballast, especially if the elderly, children and disabled are affected, plus buggies, prams, luggage and bikes; Then staff, with suitable lighting, to escort a huge number of passengers to a place of safety, ensuring nobody wanders off, panics, starts running, or decides to return to the train because they have forgotten something.

 

[Ken H]

Indeed. There could be any number of instructions/directions/standards laid down for timescales for evacuating stranded trains, but the key factor will always be staff availability. At Paddington, multiple trains were stranded, not at platforms, in darkness; Requiring staff on the ground to assist passengers to detrain, not easy getting from train door level onto the ballast, especially if the elderly, children and disabled are affected, plus buggies, prams, luggage and bikes; Then staff, with suitable lighting, to escort a huge number of passengers to a place of safety, ensuring nobody wanders off, panics, starts running, or decides to return to the train because they have forgotten something.

I thought LT tube lines were fitted with lights in the tunnels. They came on automatically if the juice rail went off. Is that still a thing? Is the Lizzy line fitted?
Last heard about tunnel lighting in the late 70's.

 

[Horizon22]

Returning to the 'speeding up evacuation' point, the report at the time that the procedure for evacuation onto the GWML involved some sort of "counting them out when leaving the train/counting them on arrival at the platform" procedure, which required responsible individuals to be at both locations and presumably a few places enroute to prevent people getting lost (particularly if there is no trackside lighting). As we know, not all GWML stations will necessarily be staffed... and only the GW IEPs will have conductors.

Every GWML station between Paddington - Reading (with the exception of maybe Twyford) should be staffed until end of service.

 

[Bikeman78]

Well for a start there's no such thing as "National Rail station staff" of course. Each TOC manages their own staff, some of whom will be agency staff at smaller stations. I think very few station staff have PTS and many don't even have dispatch licences any more. It's turned into much more of a customer service role.

I imagine the real answer "because money" and station staff are not as high quality/highly skilled as in the 'past', primarily because 99% of the time they do not need to be.

I think you know what I meant. But if the railway or the DFT doesn't want to have enough trained people to deal with incidents then the railway needs to accept that people will take matters in to their own hands. But that would be an odd position to take, given the safety first nature of the industry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

Returning to the 'speeding up evacuation' point, the report at the time that the procedure for evacuation onto the GWML involved some sort of "counting them out when leaving the train/counting them on arrival at the platform" procedure, which required responsible individuals to be at both locations and presumably a few places enroute to prevent people getting lost (particularly if there is no trackside lighting). As we know, not all GWML stations will necessarily be staffed... and only the GW IEPs will have conductors.

How, in practice, was that ever supposed to happen on the GWML during a winter evening in real-life conditions?

Clearly counting up to 1000 people off the train and out of the access point in one hit is a non starter. It would only take a small distraction for one of the counters to lose count. You would have to do it in groups of 20 or so.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The report deals with train evacuation and specifically the Ladbroke Grove incident nothing about the cause the incident in the first place and how it was managed. ie why do we have infrastructure that couldn't be sectionalised, why do have trains that don't have sufficient battery back to run basic systems like PA. As usual unless RAIB investigate the real facts are supressed and the learning points potentially lost although there will have been internal investigations.

 

[Horizon22]

I think you know what I meant. But if the railway or the DFT doesn't want to have enough trained people to deal with incidents then the railway needs to accept that people will take matters in to their own hands. But that would be an odd position to take, given the safety first nature of the industry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==


Clearly counting up to 1000 people off the train and out of the access point in one hit is a non starter. It would only take a small distraction for one of the counters to lose count. You would have to do it in groups of 20 or so.

Well that being said the whole reason they are "stranded trains" is because they are not in a platform... Quite a few were some distance away from a platform (even in London) so I am not sure what station staff would be able to achieve. As well as then leaving the station unattended (possibly locking it up, and trying to send hundreds of passengers on alternative routes). There's a lot to consider. It's also not an "odd position" to take considering it's already been taken. Again this is all talking about the secondary issues; the first thing is obviously prevent multi-hour strandings.

And based on those numbers you'd need 140 people. That is never going to be feasible.

There definitely needs to be a new approach but to be fair Network Rail and relevant TOCs were already looking at it after the initial findings earlier this year.

 

[Falcon1200]

I thought LT tube lines were fitted with lights in the tunnels.

Not sure about that, but of course the Paddington debacle was in the open air anyway.

 

[Mike Machin]

I'm always amazed at how frequently people need the loo on a train. Despite travelling literally from one end of the country to another, on thousands of trains, I have only once needed to use the toilet on a train - it was on the Great Eastern Main Line in 1986.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm always amazed at how frequently people need the loo on a train. Despite travelling literally from one end of the country to another, on thousands of trains, I have only once needed to use the toilet on a train - it was on the Great Eastern Main Line in 1986.

Great to hear that you have a generously sized bladder and no urinary retention disability, and I hope that doesn't change in your older age.

Unfortunately that isn't true of everyone else - I'm not sure "I'm all right, Jack" is really an appropriate way to deal with what can be a very embarrassing (and extremely common) disability.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm always amazed at how frequently people need the loo on a train. Despite travelling literally from one end of the country to another, on thousands of trains, I have only once needed to use the toilet on a train - it was on the Great Eastern Main Line in 1986.

Well that is nice for you. But back in the rest of the world a number of people have problems ranging from mildly inconvenient (lucky old me) to desperately in need of facilities being available.

Great to hear that you have a generously sized bladder and no urinary retention disability, and I hope that doesn't change in your older age.

Unfortunately that isn't true of everyone else - I'm not sure "I'm all right, Jack" is really an appropriate way to deal with what can be a very embarrassing (and extremely common) disability.

Exactly. It is not a one size fits all.

---

Generally I do think it would be nice if loo provision was better but I appreciate there are practicalities to consider. I think in the case of being stranded on a train for over an hour enough people will lose patience regardless of the availabilty of toilets. Once the first person has self de-trained the delays will rocket as now nothing can move regardless of the solution to the original problem.

It is either a case of the railways openly accepting this as an acceptable problem that occurs infrequently enough
OR the railways need to grasp the level of patience passengers have and cater for it.

 

[peteb]

Sadly the need to evacuate oneself cannot at times be avoided. In waiting for the train to be evacuated those folks who forced the doors open clearly needed to relieve themselves. Does anyone seriously expect public funds to be wasted on prosecutions of these individuals? Had they done their business in the carriage what then? Charges of gross indecency?

 

[physics34]

Im slightly worried about the dismissal of needing toliets, on here by some which seems to reflects management attitude.

I dont know how many times ive had a good night in london rushing to get the last train, knowing that theres a good chance i can have a pee on my 45min journey somehow.
The thought of having to hold it in for 4 hours doesnt bare thinking about.
Dont forget there may be the odd person who might need a number 2! Even worse!
The trains on a large portion on this line used to have loos, it was very poor for the new ones to not 2 per 7 car installed.

 

[johncrossley]

Had they done their business in the carriage what then? Charges of gross indecency?

I'm sure I read about an incident on a late night train after someone had too much to drink. I think there was a policeman in the coach and the passenger asked him if he could wee discreetly in a corner. It turned out that he could only stay legal by urinating with his clothes on, so soiling himself.

 

[Wolfie]

Great to hear that you have a generously sized bladder and no urinary retention disability, and I hope that doesn't change in your older age.

Unfortunately that isn't true of everyone else - I'm not sure "I'm all right, Jack" is really an appropriate way to deal with what can be a very embarrassing (and extremely common) disability.

Particularly given the number of people who have blood pressure issues and diuretics being an absolutely standard treatment.

 

[Haywain]

Particularly given the number of people who have blood pressure issues and diuretics being an absolutely standard treatment.

It's not even that, needing a toilet occasionally on a long distance journey is just a matter of being properly hydrated.

 

[800301]

Has anyone actually read the case study’s in this report which includes Ladbroke Grove compared to other standard train events

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...-meeting-the-needs-of-stranded-passengers.pdf

 

[Surreytraveller]

Has anyone actually read the case study’s in this report which includes Ladbroke Grove compared to other standard train events

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...-meeting-the-needs-of-stranded-passengers.pdf

Has anyone in the industry who manages these incidents been made aware of this report ?

 

[Horizon22]

Has anyone in the industry who manages these incidents been made aware of this report ?

It summarises lots of already known learnings and was produced by the ORR, so obviously, yes.

It is very easy to discuss what should be done and what passenger needs are. These are well known Here's a summary of the Ladbroke Grove thoughts:

• Stranded passengers on trains with good conditions (such as working lights, air conditioning or heating on) felt much more comfortable than those on services without
• Passengers felt reassured when there were regular announcements, in particular when there was no direct contact with the staff
• Stranded travellers found honest and clear information helpful in planning their onward journey
• In the absence of new updates, passengers found repetition of old information more annoying than helpful
• Passengers felt anxious when no train staff or any industry officials was present during severe situations
• Passengers felt that their safety and wellbeing was impacted by lack of organisation and contingency plans (including quick decision-making processes)
• Stranded passengers felt that customer service was less good when they did not receive assistance or adequate information regarding onward travel

All totally understandable, logical and known but logistically you are stuck if there is no power (so lights, air conditioning and announcements eventually fail), not enough staff can get to site (as happened) and you are trying to shift thousands of evacuated passengers - some of whom were going the whole length of the Thames Valley or beyond - when the line is completely shut via alternative routes.

It's all about resourcing and availabilty of the infrastructure which is logistically incredibly tricky to resolve if it spectaularly fails.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It summarises lots of already known learnings and was produced by the ORR, so obviously, yes.

It is very easy to discuss what should be done and what passenger needs are. These are well known Here's a summary of the Ladbroke Grove thoughts:



All totally understandable, logical and known but logistically you are stuck if there is no power (so lights, air conditioning and announcements eventually fail), not enough staff can get to site (as happened) and you are trying to shift thousands of evacuated passengers - some of whom were going the whole length of the Thames Valley or beyond - when the line is completely shut via alternative routes.

It's all about resourcing and availabilty of the infrastructure which is logistically incredibly tricky to resolve if it spectaularly fails.

Indeed which is why they should be addressing why they couldn't reconfigure the infrastructure to get power restored to some of the lines and remedying that deficiency.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Not just toilets that would make you crack, I don't think it would've done my autism any good being trapped that long, after a certain amount of time people want to feel in control again, 4 hours is ludicrously long to either find thunderbirds or De trained although sometimes evacuation can go pear shaped too like the Corby incident involving 2 HST sets a few years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

Lessons don't seem to have been learned if the WCML is any indication tonight, passengers even with toilets trapped for 3 hours on a LNWR service,

 

[Horizon22]

Not just toilets that would make you crack, I don't think it would've done my autism any good being trapped that long, after a certain amount of time people want to feel in control again, 4 hours is ludicrously long to either find thunderbirds or De trained although sometimes evacuation can go pear shaped too like the Corby incident involving 2 HST sets a few years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

Lessons don't seem to have been learned if the WCML is any indication tonight, passengers even with toilets trapped for 3 hours on a LNWR service,

There was a block on all traffic for at least 2 hours, so that wouldn’t have helped nor are the 7 thunderbirds just lying around! Don’t forget this was a multiple (and sudden) stranded trains incident on a day of industrial action.

Ultimately the resources should have mobilised quicker, priority trains agreed between the 3 TOCs, and planned evacuations onto the track commenced if not within the hour, by at least 90 minutes for the first train.