Lack of volunteers ?

[En]

And if the "VLO" is a volunteer and happens to be on holiday?
Funnily enough volunteers are human and have a life away from their VOLUNTARY role.

1. 'Out of office' response to the email / web form
2. whoever is covering responds with ' the VLO is away at the minute, can you fill in our form and they'll be in touch when they get back '
not Rocket Surgery

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

I do wonder whether some members understand just how voluntary "jobs" work, and this is not just in the railway world:

The voluntary VLO goes on holiday.
He does not work in the railway office, if there is one, but from home so his email doesn't get answered.
Emails to his "work" address probably get transferred to his home PERSONAL computer.
He's on holiday and doesn't take his computer with him, and why should he, he's on holiday.
He doesn't put a "On Holiday" note on his computer at home because it's his personal computer.

How do I know this?
I'm the voluntary chairman of the caravanning section of a large national motorclub and get numerous email enquiries and complaints that go to a generic Group email address that are automatically forwarded to my PERSONAL email. When I'm away, as I have been for the last 2 weeks, none of those messages have been answered quite simply because I'm on holiday, and although I do have a smart phone that I can read my emails on, I don't bother BECAUSE I'M ON HOLIDAY!

Please start thinking folks. The more you complain about emails not being answered and complaining publically about it, the more you are putting those that are currently doing that "job" off. The lack of volunteers isn't just on the train operating side but in the back-room field as well and they are equally as important. If they go there will be no-one to coordinate volunteers, or write the rosters, or order the fuel or even order the tea and milk.

we are thinking ,
givenn the ubiquity of O365 or G Suite there is little excuse to be using people's personal email addresses

 

[MP33]

At my former employer, there was required reading which included H & S. I made a point of reading them as under previous management there had been a couple of fatalities and also life changing injuries.

When you heard the history of these incidents you would have thought that we had employed, Laurel and Hardy, The Chuckle Brothers and Frank Spencer.

 

[Llanigraham]

1. 'Out of office' response to the email / web form
2. whoever is covering responds with ' the VLO is away at the minute, can you fill in our form and they'll be in touch when they get back '
not Rocket Surgery

But that presumes that there is someone else able to deal with it. As I have said many lines not only have problems getting "working volunteers, but are also having problems getting "back office" people as well.

we are thinking ,
givenn the ubiquity of O365 or G Suite there is little excuse to be using people's personal email addresses

I didn't say personal email addresses, I said personal computer.
The Club that I volunteer with have their own email adresses, and in our case if an email comes in to the one that concerns our Committee it is automatically forwarded to my personal computer. Now why should I answer that email whilst I'm on holiday? The only emails I will answer whilst I'm on holiday are generally ones from my family. I'm on HOLIDAY, I'm not at "WORK".

And I haven't got a clue what "0365 or G Suite" are!

 

[ABB125]

And I haven't got a clue what "0365 or G Suite" are

They're the web-based "office" software sets available from Microsoft and Google, respectively. I'd be pretty confident that 99% of businesses in the western world use the former.

 

[Llanigraham]

They're the web-based "office" software sets available from Microsoft and Google, respectively. I'd be pretty confident that 99% of businesses in the western world use the former.

Perhaps they do, but I've never heard them called that.
Now it had been said Microsoft Office.............

 

[enginedin]

Now it had been said Microsoft Office.............

I have a huge amount of sympathy for lack of understanding of the jargon that is banded around (I work in tech, and I get very frustrated at colleagues who assume people know everything).

"O365" is the shorthand way of saying "Office 365". These are web-based tools (i.e. in the majority of cases you use a browser to use them), and it includes Microsoft's web-based email service.

Microsoft Office is the set of programs that can be installed on a computer (like Word and Excel). The slight confusion is that it also includes Outlook, which can be used to read emails which are actually web-based (like those on the Office 365 service), but doesn't have to

The Club that I volunteer with have their own email adresses, and in our case if an email comes in to the one that concerns our Committee it is automatically forwarded to my personal computer.

I understand the confusion, but I would put a lot of money on the fact that although it seems like it's forwarded to your personal computer, your setup is such that you read web-based emails on a program on your personal computer (e.g. using Windows Mail, Outlook, or Thunderbird), but, if you were shown how to, you would be able to read these emails online instead.

(for those reading with a bit more tech knowledge, yes - it is possible that the domain provider only provides SMTP & POP3, without a web client, but I think most people would agree that these are very uncommon now...)

I'd be pretty confident that 99% of businesses

I'd say it's less than than, probably between 80 and 90%. I know some very big organisations who use google cloud.

 

[merry]

At my former employer, there was required reading which included H & S. I made a point of reading them as under previous management there had been a couple of fatalities and also life changing injuries.

When you heard the history of these incidents you would have thought that we had employed, Laurel and Hardy, The Chuckle Brothers and Frank Spencer.

And it is on the "learning from mistakes of the past" (as well as near misses) that our current railway rules & regulations are formed, as is all the other newer regulation many don't accept as readily. The rules & regs were just formed in that way a lot earlier than H&S!

Our signalling training course was heavily punctuated by illustrations of terrible incidents and potentially horrible near misses. Very sobering too, as they should be.
We volunteer in a physically unforgiving operating environment, whatever our role, and even I, in middle age, recall the potential horrors of what was acceptable when I was a young volunteer. We should all be thankful that a lot more care is now taken to ensure we can return home in one piece to volunteer again next week.

 

[12C]

Thought this might be relevant here as an example of the struggles pres lines are facing. The Spa Valley Railway has posted on Facebook that it has been unable to run some services this week due to lack of traincrew. A shame with it being peak school summer holiday season.

https://m.facebook.com/SpaValleyRailway/

We are sorry to announce that due to a shortage of a Guard we cannot operate trains on Tuesday 6th August and will be closed. The driver experience on 6th August is still going ahead as a volunteer is able to get there in the afternoon.

We also cannot operate on Wednesday 7th August due to a shortage of Drivers and a Guard, Tunbridge Wells West will be open between 10:00 and 16:00 for anyone who wishes to visit the engine shed and shop.

We are very sorry for any inconvenience and disappointment this will no doubt cause. We will be looking at future dates over the next couple of days to give an accurate list of dates we can open midweek during August.

As a railway, there is nothing we hate more than having to close and recruiting people into these vital roles which are voluntary is not easy. We'd like to thank those who've contacted us recently regarding joining us.

Steve Lee

 

[Skymonster]

The situation at the Spa Valley (above) is reflective of the challenges a number of preserved rail operations are facing. All these operations compete with theme parks, days out at the seaside, castles and beauty spots, etc for visitor’s pounds. As such they need to offer a reliable service and a minimum service level.

In reality, I think that too much reliance is placed on volunteers. Volunteers can have other commitments and are under no obligation to do a set number of duties. Volunteers go on holiday too, and it may well be at this time of year - right at the time when the places they volunteer at are also likely to be at their busiest. Or the older volunteers might be looking after grand kids in the school holidays while their parents still go to work. Again, they volunteer less. For my own part, my part time paid work ramps up at this time of year (covering for others who are away on holiday), so I do far less volunteer crewing through the peak summer season - once we get to September the load will be off and I’ll be back to two or three days a week crewing.

Preserved railways etc need to think about a certain level of paid staff resourcing to ensure that a service can be provided - and use volunteers to top up and offer extra capacity. Sure, it would put up the costs (and no doubt someone will come along and argue that most operations are marginal in terms of covering costs even now), but not being able to deliver at a time when demand is likely to be greatest is a sure fire way of putting potential customers off returning in future.

 

[En]

The situation at the Spa Valley (above) is reflective of the challenges a number of preserved rail operations are facing. All these operations compete with theme parks, days out at the seaside, castles and beauty spots, etc for visitor’s pounds. As such they need to offer a reliable service and a minimum service level.

In reality, I think that too much reliance is placed on volunteers. Volunteers can have other commitments and are under no obligation to do a set number of duties. Volunteers go on holiday too, and it may well be at this time of year - right at the time when the places they volunteer at are also likely to be at their busiest. Or the older volunteers might be looking after grand kids in the school holidays while their parents still go to work. Again, they volunteer less. For my own part, my part time paid work ramps up at this time of year (covering for others who are away on holiday), so I do far less volunteer crewing through the peak summer season - once we get to September the load will be off and I’ll be back to two or three days a week crewing.

Preserved railways etc need to think about a certain level of paid staff resourcing to ensure that a service can be provided - and use volunteers to top up and offer extra capacity. Sure, it would put up the costs (and no doubt someone will come along and argue that most operations are marginal in terms of covering costs even now), but not being able to deliver at a time when demand is likely to be greatest is a sure fire way of putting potential customers off returning in future.

so Often with Volunteering you see the 80/20 rule writ large and when those 20 % are unavailable becasue of the really good reasons Sky monster cites it all goes to ratpoop

 

[Titfield]

The situation at the Spa Valley (above) is reflective of the challenges a number of preserved rail operations are facing. All these operations compete with theme parks, days out at the seaside, castles and beauty spots, etc for visitor’s pounds. As such they need to offer a reliable service and a minimum service level.

In reality, I think that too much reliance is placed on volunteers. Volunteers can have other commitments and are under no obligation to do a set number of duties. Volunteers go on holiday too, and it may well be at this time of year - right at the time when the places they volunteer at are also likely to be at their busiest. Or the older volunteers might be looking after grand kids in the school holidays while their parents still go to work. Again, they volunteer less. For my own part, my part time paid work ramps up at this time of year (covering for others who are away on holiday), so I do far less volunteer crewing through the peak summer season - once we get to September the load will be off and I’ll be back to two or three days a week crewing.

Preserved railways etc need to think about a certain level of paid staff resourcing to ensure that a service can be provided - and use volunteers to top up and offer extra capacity. Sure, it would put up the costs (and no doubt someone will come along and argue that most operations are marginal in terms of covering costs even now), but not being able to deliver at a time when demand is likely to be greatest is a sure fire way of putting potential customers off returning in future.

Some heritage railways (and citing Swanage as one of them) seem to becoming reliant on fund raising (Save Your Railway) and Legacies to survive. The revenue from operations and secondary income from retail and catering is barely covering direct operational costs let alone capital costs and long term renewals.

My fear is that financial pressures may result in a serious blameworthy accident which would not only severely impact the railway involved but could have a ripple effect on other heritage railways.

 

[En]

Some heritage railways (and citing Swanage as one of them) seem to becoming reliant on fund raising (Save Your Railway) and Legacies to survive. The revenue from operations and secondary income from retail and catering is barely covering direct operational costs let alone capital costs and long term renewals.

My fear is that financial pressures may result in a serious blameworthy accident which would not only severely impact the railway involved but could have a ripple effect on other heritage railways.

This is something which has impacted on service delivery in the charitable sector, and certainly blameworthy incidents in the past 30 or so years have changed the governance, training and management structures in a number of charities.

 

[Belperpete]

Some heritage railways (and citing Swanage as one of them) seem to becoming reliant on fund raising (Save Your Railway) and Legacies to survive. The revenue from operations and secondary income from retail and catering is barely covering direct operational costs let alone capital costs and long term renewals.

My fear is that financial pressures may result in a serious blameworthy accident which would not only severely impact the railway involved but could have a ripple effect on other heritage railways.

A number of railways (not sure if this includes Swanage) are having to repay debts incurred during COVID, and are having to make special fund raising efforts accordingly. Hopefully this will be a one off!

There is an increasing emphasis on legacies simply because it is becoming an increasingly good source of income as long-term supporters die off.

Most preserved railways have long relied on fundraising for major capital projects and significant renewals, and I suspect this will always be the case. As long as the receipts cover the operating costs and the minor renewals that won't grab the fundraising headlines, that is the important thing.

Having said all that, I do think that times are harder for preserved railways now than they have been for a long time, with the current costs of coal and other raw materials.

 

[En]

A number of railways (not sure if this includes Swanage) are having to repay debts incurred during COVID, and are having to make special fund raising efforts accordingly. Hopefully this will be a one off!

There is an increasing emphasis on legacies simply because it is becoming an increasingly good source of income as long-term supporters die off.

Most preserved railways have long relied on fundraising for major capital projects and significant renewals, and I suspect this will always be the case. As long as the receipts cover the operating costs and the minor renewals that won't grab the fundraising headlines, that is the important thing.

Having said all that, I do think that times are harder for preserved railways now than they have been for a long time, with the current costs of coal and other raw materials.

I think as you suggest Capex and some aspects of 'major' renewals will be depending on specific funding routes in this sector

 

[Titfield]

A number of railways (not sure if this includes Swanage) are having to repay debts incurred during COVID, and are having to make special fund raising efforts accordingly. Hopefully this will be a one off!

There is an increasing emphasis on legacies simply because it is becoming an increasingly good source of income as long-term supporters die off.

Most preserved railways have long relied on fundraising for major capital projects and significant renewals, and I suspect this will always be the case. As long as the receipts cover the operating costs and the minor renewals that won't grab the fundraising headlines, that is the important thing.

Having said all that, I do think that times are harder for preserved railways now than they have been for a long time, with the current costs of coal and other raw materials.

Swanage does have to pay COVID loans and where some other organisations provided extended payment terms.

I should have articulated this better but the concern is that whilst fund raising has long been the means of paying for capex, the clear water between trading revenue and direct operating costs appears to be getting less and less as each year passes.

I do not see the costs of coal reducing given where it is now sourced from and the consequent transport costs.

If fund raising is used to pay for current capex, what happens if there is a major landslip or a bridge on inspection needs very major works. Network Railway has highlighted the additional costs they are having to bear caused by climate change.

 

[paul1609]

Swanage does have to pay COVID loans and where some other organisations provided extended payment terms.

I should have articulated this better but the concern is that whilst fund raising has long been the means of paying for capex, the clear water between trading revenue and direct operating costs appears to be getting less and less as each year passes.

I do not see the costs of coal reducing given where it is now sourced from and the consequent transport costs.

If fund raising is used to pay for current capex, what happens if there is a major landslip or a bridge on inspection needs very major works. Network Railway has highlighted the additional costs they are having to bear caused by climate change.

I dont comment on other railways finances specifically but to take two examples the cost of coal whilst probably up over 100% on pre pandemic prices is currently much reduced from its peak at the beginning of the Ukraine War. Similarly electricity is now half what it was during that period.
The nature of commercial contracts is that it takes an awful long time for these reductons to appear in a railways accounts. For instance at my railway our last horrific electricity rate contract only expired in May. So the accounts for this financial year which will only be made public in Aug 25 wont show the future cost of operations. Obviously we generate our own budget which is never made public.
Similarly changes to our business plan as a result of the change in business enviroment following the pandemic and the war arent fully implimented yet and wont be fully visible in the accounts for a few years.
The analogy is the oil tanker whose rudder has been hard to port for sometime but isnt turning yet.
In terms of planning for a major financial unknown we have an understanding with our bankers about the maximum credit we could draw on and we plan for a major contingency item so we keep this headroom in our financial planning.

 

[Llanigraham]

I understand the confusion, but I would put a lot of money on the fact that although it seems like it's forwarded to your personal computer, your setup is such that you read web-based emails on a program on your personal computer (e.g. using Windows Mail, Outlook, or Thunderbird), but, if you were shown how to, you would be able to read these emails online instead.

Sorry, been away in the caravan.
The point I am making is that whilst I am able to recieve and read those emails, why should I, I'M ON HOLIDAY! And that is what people don't seem to be able to understand or are ignoring, and whilst I am away there is no-one else who is capable of doing so.

 

[enginedin]

The point I am making is that whilst I am able to recieve and read those emails, why should I, I'M ON HOLIDAY! And that is what people don't seem to be able to understand or are ignoring, and whilst I am away there is no-one else who is capable of doing so.

I do totally understand (and empathise with) that. Despite what you're saying, I think the majority of people in this thread also agree with it, so you're slightly preaching to the converted

I was additionally highlighting that there are almost certainly ways for other people to read the email you think is only going to your own computer if you thought that would be useful (I'm still not convinced that your own computer really is the only place you could read those emails). e.g. an organisation might have a communal email address for "info@organisation.com", which any member of the committee could access.

 

[birchesgreen]

So, in a nutshell this thread can be summarised as:

Preserved railways are finding it harder and harder to get volunteers
Some people say they've tried to apply but got no response
A perfectly reasonable suggestion is made to try and help that
Gets put down like a ton of bricks

Well don't complain about a lack of volunteers in future then.

 

[Belfastmarty]

Sorry, been away in the caravan.
The point I am making is that whilst I am able to recieve and read those emails, why should I, I'M ON HOLIDAY! And that is what people don't seem to be able to understand or are ignoring, and whilst I am away there is no-one else who is capable of doing so.

I don't think anybody is suggesting you should answer mails when you are on holiday or unavailable. The point many are making is an individual shouldn't be a failure point if they are away. There are many quick and simple workarounds which can be applied, from setting an autoreply to forwarding the mail to other available folk, and these will ensure queries are answered promptly and reduce reliance on a single individual being available.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't think anybody is suggesting you should answer mails when you are on holiday or unavailable. The point many are making is an individual shouldn't be a failure point if they are away. There are many quick and simple workarounds which can be applied, from setting an autoreply to forwarding the mail to other available folk, and these will ensure queries are answered promptly and reduce reliance on a single individual being available.

Unfortunately if you want a volunteer outfit with no single points of failure, they don't exist. By their nature that will always be the case.

 

[30907]

Unfortunately if you want a volunteer outfit with no single points of failure, they don't exist. By their nature that will always be the case.

But you can mitigate.
Volunteer@isleofsodor.org can be set up with a permanent auto-reply including
"...our volunteer officer is a volunteer and may not reply immediately. Please be patient...."
Alternatively/additionally it can be set up to cc to admin@isleofsodor.org who maintain a watching brief.
Or simply have the first contact received by the admin office anyway.

 

[En]

I don't think anybody is suggesting you should answer mails when you are on holiday or unavailable. The point many are making is an individual shouldn't be a failure point if they are away. There are many quick and simple workarounds which can be applied, from setting an autoreply to forwarding the mail to other available folk, and these will ensure queries are answered promptly and reduce reliance on a single individual being available.

exactly this.
as has been suggested multiple solutions ( server level autoreply / shared mailboxes / forwarding at server level ) which are simple to implement if the organisation has reasonably modern IT and don't require a huge amount of tinkering under the 'bonnet' rather than the enquiry disappearing into what is seemingly a black hole and people getting obstreporous aobut expectations to answer email

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

Unfortunately if you want a volunteer outfit with no single points of failure, they don't exist. By their nature that will always be the case.

any (volunteering) organisation with more than one person / household involved has the potential to not have a single point of failure. A (volunteer) organisations with a dozen or so active volunteers in leadership or functional roles as no excuse to have a situation where there is a single point of failure even if the fall back is adminstrator accounts or incoming messages going to a shared mailbox rather than (solely) personal ones

 

[Krokodil]

Sorry, been away in the caravan.
The point I am making is that whilst I am able to recieve and read those emails, why should I, I'M ON HOLIDAY! And that is what people don't seem to be able to understand or are ignoring, and whilst I am away there is no-one else who is capable of doing so.

Not one poster on this thread has said that you should be checking emails while on holiday. Not one.

What people are saying is that there should be an auto-reply set up (it's a five minute task without any need for specialist expertise) to the effect of "Thank you for your email. As we are staffed by volunteers it may take up to three weeks for a response" etc.

 

[kje7812]

The SVR vlo has recently launched a new website. I'm curious what the posters here think of it.

Severn Valley Railway Volunteer Liaison Office

Give a little of your spare time, meet new friends, enjoy yourself and learn new skills at our heritage railway. The Severn Valley Railway Volunteer Liaison Office have everything you need to get started.

www.svr-vlo.org.uk

 

[Belfastmarty]

The SVR vlo has recently launched a new website. I'm curious what the posters here think of it.

Severn Valley Railway Volunteer Liaison Office

Give a little of your spare time, meet new friends, enjoy yourself and learn new skills at our heritage railway. The Severn Valley Railway Volunteer Liaison Office have everything you need to get started.

www.svr-vlo.org.uk

Informative and professional, top marks !

 

[YorkshireBear]

But you can mitigate.
Volunteer@isleofsodor.org can be set up with a permanent auto-reply including
"...our volunteer officer is a volunteer and may not reply immediately. Please be patient...."
Alternatively/additionally it can be set up to cc to admin@isleofsodor.org who maintain a watching brief.
Or simply have the first contact received by the admin office anyway.

That relies on someone in the organisation understanding that and knowing how to do it.

I don't in any way disagree that it should be done, but in my experience much of this is very difficult in this sector because you can't make people have the relevant IT skills etc.

 

[enginedin]

That relies on someone in the organisation understanding that and knowing how to do it.

I empathise with this view, but in my experience:

- it's unusual, in my experience, for at least one volunteer in a large voluntary organisation not to either work in an IT-related job or to have an interest in IT\
- for small organisations, asking family members / friends is normally enough to get adequate info. If all else fails, Google will help...

In this particular example ("a permanent auto-reply"), in almost all modern email programs (either online, like gmail or Microsoft's O365 online), or a desktop program (like Outlook, Windows Mail, or Thunderbird) have an option to set an automatic of office reply.

 

[PupCuff]

There's been much discussion about IT skills - at the end of the day, you don't need to be Gordon Ramsey to cook a Tesco lasagne; we're talking setting an 'out of office' here, not programming the software for a space mission.

If volunteers can learn the myriad of often complex safety rules and whatnot to drive steam trains or be a guard or a signaller or whathaveyou, they can learn how to set an out of office.

 

[Belperpete]

I empathise with this view, but in my experience:

- it's unusual, in my experience, for at least one volunteer in a large voluntary organisation not to either work in an IT-related job or to have an interest in IT\
- for small organisations, asking family members / friends is normally enough to get adequate info. If all else fails, Google will help...

In this particular example ("a permanent auto-reply"), in almost all modern email programs (either online, like gmail or Microsoft's O365 online), or a desktop program (like Outlook, Windows Mail, or Thunderbird) have an option to set an automatic of office reply.

There are people who understand IT, and those who think or claim that they do. For example, someone who suggests that you can use a desktop program (like Outlook, Windows Mail, or Thunderbird) to set up an automatic out of office reply, obviously doesn't understand that it may only work while that desktop program is running. So if you turn your computer off while you go on holiday, the auto-reply may cease to work.

Others have suggested setting up auto redirect. I used to have an email account set up in just this way. However, many organisations are now having to inhibit this, as they can get accused of spamming.