Lack of volunteers ?

[Vespa]

In another thread I read about how some attractions can't run trains or trams because of shortages of volunteers.

Is there a general trend for numbers of volunteers declining at heritage raiways ?

Could it be down to lack of interests, inability to progress, politics, volunteer treatment or youth culture change ?

 

[birchesgreen]

The golden age of volunteering may be over. Fewer people may be able to retire earlier and may now lack flexibility and capacity to volunteer at weekends.

 

[Magdalia]

A few thoughts on volunteers at heritage railways.

Steam on BR ended 56 years ago. The number of people old enough to remember that, and also still sufficiently active to volunteer, is now starting to diminish.

Some people stopped doing things during covid and haven't gone back to them since.

Volunteering is expensive, some people can no longer afford it because of the cost of living.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Problem is the youth think everything happens in their phone. From my experience getting youth is something you have to work on very very hard, some railways have been successful but most are struggling.

 

[Flying Phil]

This is complex issue, but it should be remembered that we now have far more places (Heritage Railways) that are seeking volunteers. In the 1960's there were only really a few in N Wales and the Middleton, Bluebell, Keithley and Severn Valley. There has been a steady growth ever since. The number of active pensioners is now greater than ever. Covid obviously has had a huge effect which has been a major factor. Getting people (young and old) off their phones is a problem, but most of us eventually realise the truism that "the more you put in the more you get out".

 

[paul1609]

A few thoughts on volunteers at heritage railways.

Steam on BR ended 56 years ago. The number of people old enough to remember that, and also still sufficiently active to volunteer, is now starting to diminish.

Some people stopped doing things during covid and haven't gone back to them since.

Volunteering is expensive, some people can no longer afford it because of the cost of living.

My experience is that the uk voluntary sector generally shrank considerably during the pandemic. As regards the K&ESR we seem to as always have enough to get by but would like more.
I think we are probably lucky being in a small rural town in that everyone will know someone who has volunteered on the railway at some stage. The young volunteers at the railway many of whom are second or third generation seem happy with their lot.
I think the no experience of br steam has long since ceased to have been an issue infact one of the areas (not just on the KESR) that seems to struggle to attract young/ new volunteers is diesel loco/units.

 

[Bill57p9]

I believe that there are several factors at play all of which have impacted volunteering across the board, not just preserved railways.

As already mentioned, in many parts of the country the cost of living means people are often working more and therefore have less free time - or at least prefer using it for something that pays.

Voluntary organisations have (necessarily) become more professional. I don't mean this in a way to criticise previous times, but today risk assessments, formal training, competency checks, etc, etc. are all (understandably) the born. This is different to years gone by where people could essentially "rock up and crack on". This admin raises the barrier to entry on volunteering and puts people off. It is also a (necessary) burden on organisations, which now need volunteers spending time on compliance rather than doing stuff - and these roles appeal to relatively few volunteers.

The vetting required for those volunteering with young or vulnerable people is a very tangible example: (I would hope) nobody would think these were superfluous however requiring a criminal records check really does put people off volunteering and the overhead can (and does) discourage voluntary organisations from engaging young volunteers.

A friend of mine told me anecdotally that when checks were introduced for junior football coaches something around half the coaches left. This suggests that there were some in that mix that young people were better without being in regular trusted contact with, however the bottom line was a reduction in volunteer coaches.

 

[james_the_xv]

Problem is the youth think everything happens in their phone. From my experience getting youth is something you have to work on very very hard, some railways have been successful but most are struggling.

This is a grossly unfair generalisation, especially given many heritage railways/attractions make no effort to market volunteering roles to young people and still have their attitudes stuck in the 50s.

 

[43066]

This is a grossly unfair generalisation, especially given many heritage railways/attractions make no effort to market volunteering roles to young people and still have their attitudes stuck in the 50s.

I wonder whether the lack of volunteers may partly be down to some of the “characters” who frequent heritage railways, some of whom aren’t exactly encouraging or welcoming. High profile cases like that of Joanne Crompton who was IIRC “dismissed” by a railway under dubious circumstances also won’t help with this, of course.

 

[Gloster]

This is something that I have been ranting on about for a good few years. The generation that started the preservation movement have long gone to the great Barry in the sky and those who followed them have also gone there or are reaching an age where they want to or must (due to health) cut back what they do. This has now reached those who remember the early diesels and one wonders how many of those who started their interest in the blue and grey era and are now the age group (early or recent retirees who are still fit and healthy) that is needed to do all the tasks needed are also starting to fall away. The Swallow era and privatisation, together with other societal and technological changes, seems to have reduced the number of people becoming interested in railways at an early age. Of course there will be some who maintain their interest and some who come late, but the pool will be smaller.

 

[Monty]

If anything I find there is no shortage of young volunteers, especially for the footplate dept, the issue stems from the significant time commitment required to progress, it is often a long a drawn out process. Another issue is increasing oversight from the rail authorities such as the ORR (and personally something I agree with given my professional background) has made harder for volunteers to train in certain roles. I am a Guard Inspector on the line I volunteer on and it's becoming quite a challenge to find enough people who are able to commit the time and put in the effort to be trained to an acceptable standard.

 

[31160]

I think that definitely covid had its part to play in this, I used to be a TTI on my local pres line (WSR) and I did enjoy it while I was there 6-7 years but the 18 month forced lay off I just filled my time with other things. As stated above the cost of living is also a pressure in this, speaking personally I also got nothing out of working steam trains which was 99% of my time with only the diesel (although in actuality at least one kettle out) weekend once a year was the highlight, although on this site railway's are our main concern it really just a preserved railway problem, national trust also seeing numbers fall

 

[Vespa]

I think that definitely covid had its part to play in this, I used to be a TTI on my local pres line (WSR) and I did enjoy it while I was there 6-7 years but the 18 month forced lay off I just filled my time with other things. As stated above the cost of living is also a pressure in this, speaking personally I also got nothing out of working steam trains which was 99% of my time with only the diesel (although in actuality at least one kettle out) weekend once a year was the highlight, although on this site railway's are our main concern it really just a preserved railway problem, national trust also seeing numbers fall

Could it be that the railways and National Trust is not as Instagram or TikTok friendly enough for them ?

A generational drift ?

I work with a uniformed youth organisation, I have noticed a difference between pre facebook/TikTok and todays youth culture, we do enough of a draw to bring them and we do utilise modern technolgy when teaching them the syllabus, I'm not sure how that can be applied to a heritage railway.

 

[50002Superb]

Problem is the youth think everything happens in their phone. From my experience getting youth is something you have to work on very very hard, some railways have been successful but most are struggling.

This is quite offensive and its attitudes like this that actually put younger people off.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Some thing like Safety Management Systems can put volunteers off. At my railway you can’t just go up a ladder any more and paint something,you need to have take a Working at Height course first. Platform staff no longer dispatch trains as there is no SMS package for them. This means they only clean and sweep up and they soon lose interest. PTS is also now mandatory for those who go on or near the line. Whilst safety is important some potential volunteers may not want to jump through the hoops especially older people.

 

[Gloster]

Fifteen or so years ago I did inquire about volunteering at the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, preferably as a signalman. Although I expected the full gamut of signalling Rules & Regulations and a General Rulebook, there seemed to be a mass of things that I would have to be checked out on if I was even going to be allowed to breathe on the railway. No, thank you: this is not what someone who used to wander out on to the West of England mainline in his shirt sleeves is going to be happy with.

 

[Titfield]

Some thing like Safety Management Systems can put volunteers off. At my railway you can’t just go up a ladder any more and paint something,you need to have take a Working at Height course first. Platform staff no longer dispatch trains as there is no SMS package for them. This means they only clean and sweep up and they soon lose interest. PTS is also now mandatory for those who go on or near the line. Whilst safety is important some potential volunteers may not want to jump through the hoops especially older people.

Safety is not just important - it is the single highest priority for any organisation.

In an increasingly regulated and litigious society no organisation can afford to do anything other than treat it as its single highest priority.

I have overhead volunteers when challenged retort "dont worry I wont sue as it will be my fault".

That is not the point nor is it any defence.

Fatalities and injuries (other than very minor ones) will be investigated by the HSE (Health and Safety Executive) and could result in a prosecution, fine and costs that could bankrupt any heritage railway.

However that is also not the point. Anyone be they an employee or volunteer must be confident that their place of work or volunteering has in place safe systems of work that provide the level of protection they have the right to expect.

 

[172007]

Some thing like Safety Management Systems can put volunteers off. At my railway you can’t just go up a ladder any more and paint something,you need to have take a Working at Height course first. Platform staff no longer dispatch trains as there is no SMS package for them. This means they only clean and sweep up and they soon lose interest. PTS is also now mandatory for those who go on or near the line. Whilst safety is important some potential volunteers may not want to jump through the hoops especially older people.

To the younger generation all the Health m Safety etc is expected and is seen as perfectly normal. I immagine it's the knuckle dragging 55+ somethings ( I feel from general observation many,, not all in this age group hate the fact they have no oppertunity to mame themselves and others. If you look at FB responses jn general to anything on the subject of Healthband safety. It's allmost as if its a breach of individual liberty) who are put off and that is probably a good thing for all.

 

[D Williams]

Fifteen or so years ago I did inquire about volunteering at the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, preferably as a signalman. Although I expected the full gamut of signalling Rules & Regulations and a General Rulebook, there seemed to be a mass of things that I would have to be checked out on if I was even going to be allowed to breathe on the railway. No, thank you: this is not what someone who used to wander out on to the West of England mainline in his shirt sleeves is going to be happy with.

Unfortunately the times have changed and railways either follow the ORR guidance or , it has been made very clear, will not operate trains at all. However, some heritage railways make more of a song and dance about it than others.

 

[158760]

Problem is the youth think everything happens in their phone. From my experience getting youth is something you have to work on very very hard, some railways have been successful but most are struggling.

As a young person who has been volunteering on heritage railways for 6-7 years now people saying things like this is the reason a lot of young people don’t want to volunteer. From my experience some of the older volunteers (not all but some) do not appreciate the young people helping out, and actively try to discourage us from volunteering by making our lives difficult. This is a shrinking minority now, but remember everyone has to start somewhere, and we are still learning!

 

[Meerkat]

The golden age of lots of people retiring in their fifties on lovely DC pensions is pretty much over.
And anecdotally lots of the retired are day care for their grandchildren.
Plus the general trend that people are generally busier - there is far more choices of things to do these days.

 

[31160]

As a young person who has been volunteering on heritage railways for 6-7 years now people saying things like this is the reason a lot of young people don’t want to volunteer. From my experience some of the older volunteers (not all but some) do not appreciate the young people helping out, and actively try to discourage us from volunteering by making our lives difficult. This is a shrinking minority now, but remember everyone has to start somewhere, and we are still learning!

Absolutely we were all clueless once upon a time, some of my antics when I was younger on the railway would make me cringe now, but we all mature as we age and younger volunteers doing anything are fewer on the ground also they might be physically more able to do something that somebody older might know how to do but not be able to do, we all start out knowing nothing knowledge Absolutely should be past down otherwise the hobby will die on its feet

 

[StoneRoad]

Not just a problem for heritage railways and the like - the National Trust and the RNLI are a couple of others in a similar position.

Training and safety are major requirements needing significant commitment ... and things like covid, the cost of living crisis and alternative attractions have all contributed to raising barriers to everyone - not just the youngsters !

 

[kje7812]

Some thing like Safety Management Systems can put volunteers off. At my railway you can’t just go up a ladder any more and paint something,you need to have take a Working at Height course first. Platform staff no longer dispatch trains as there is no SMS package for them. This means they only clean and sweep up and they soon lose interest. PTS is also now mandatory for those who go on or near the line. Whilst safety is important some potential volunteers may not want to jump through the hoops especially older people.

Sounds a bit odd. Any reasoning why?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Sounds a bit odd. Any reasoning why?

The railway hasn’t produced a safe method of work,method of training or a form of competence management to allow platform staff to dispatch trains anymore. Whilst guards are self dispatching there is no great incentive to produce any of the above either.

 

[kje7812]

From my perspective as a volunteer of almost 15 years and on the younger end of things (earlier 30s):
Various things have impacted volunteer numbers. The general trend of increasing retirement age has ate into the number of older new start volunteers, while the lower end is always at the mercy of school, university, work and family life. COVID and the associated lockdowns meant people got out of the habit of volunteering plus most railways have cut their services so there is less opportunities for some to volunteer.
That said, my home railway restarted the junior club last year and the ones I've met seem quite switched on. Railway volunteering is always somewhat niche, but I would argue an interest in railways isn't a requirement, quite a few of the retirees and similar age that start aren't actually enthusiasts and are more just looking for something to do.
Negative comments on here about the newer generation are exactly those that put off that generation from volunteering. I've seen that happen with a rather anti-youngster deputy head of department causing an exodus of young volunteers from that department just as the head of department was asking the volunteer office for more youngsters. The situation has improved but the damage was done.
Extra health and safety and increased IT usage does put some off of the less tech savvy but it's necessary in the modern era and it probably easier to weed out people who have issues with these earlier than later.
Cost of volunteering is definitely an issue with uniform and equipment and the fact that most railways require membership to be able to volunteer. Speaking to one of our volunteer officers, membership is often a stumbling block and lead to some potential volunteers not pursuing. Some railways don't require membership to volunteer and I note that the NYMR removed its requirement for membership last year. Some railways offer discount for working membership (KWVR and I think GCR for example).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2024 ==

The railway hasn’t produced a safe method of work,method of training or a form of competence management to allow platform staff to dispatch trains anymore. Whilst guards are self dispatching there is no great incentive to produce any of the above either.

Hmm, still sounds rather odd from my point of view.

 

[eldomtom2]

To the younger generation all the Health m Safety etc is expected and is seen as perfectly normal. I immagine it's the knuckle dragging 55+ somethings ( I feel from general observation many,, not all in this age group hate the fact they have no oppertunity to mame themselves and others. If you look at FB responses jn general to anything on the subject of Healthband safety. It's allmost as if its a breach of individual liberty) who are put off and that is probably a good thing for all.

I would not be so sure. I'm seeing a cultural trend that's more anti-regulation among at least some youth (but it's very common among those who might be interested in railways) - it's seen as one of the dread hands of NIMBYism.

 

[PupCuff]

Hmm, still sounds rather odd from my point of view.

In an ideal world you'd have dispatchers provided but for many lines it's not practicable.

This used to be my domain - if you've got station staff conducting train dispatch then first of all, you need to consider selection and suitability for the role; the reality is a fair proportion of potential volunteers won't be suitable for conducting train dispatch duties whether that be through medical fitness or capability. At the end of the day, some volunteers just want to come in and be a friendly face to the visitors and do the gardening.

Once you've got enough suitable volunteers, you've got to have a competence management system, ie a structured programme of training and assessment, and you've got to have volunteers with the right skills and personality (and availability) to deliver that training and conduct those assessments - from an already small pool of volunteers. And, someone with the management skills to keep track of it all.

Competence management in general can be a challenge; competence management when you have volunteers doing in some cases no more than six or so turns a year, some of which need to align with your, say, two assessors' availability for them to maintain their competence is an absolute nightmare.

If you're on a bigger line with good volunteer availability, or has the budget to pay staff to do the assessment of volunteers etc, it's manageable but for smaller lines it's not easy. I can understand why self-dispatch could be seen as the preferable option, especially if the majority of the railway's work is trains formed of 4 Mk1s and a loco.

 

[ABB125]

I used to be a volunteer at my local heritage railway, in the youth group.
The activities we could do were very limited, basically things like painting fences and being elves on Santa trains. This was, I believe, primarily due to the unusually low proportion of paid staff at the railway who could be officially responsible. However, we were a group of keen, interested and quite capable people, always happy to help with whatever was required. There was then a change of (volunteer) management running the youth group, and it suddenly became even more restricted and less interesting as there was no longer the drive from group management to try to push for things to happen. The ever-increasing burden of safeguarding didn't help either. Historically, I believe certain elements of senior railway management were not particularly enthused by the idea of the youth group, and in later years a few questionable decisions seemed to be made about the few things we were able to do.
I "graduated" from the youth group, and then the world shut down for several months (which was used as a convenient excuse to close down the youth group. 4 years on, they've realised the problems with this (or, perhaps more accurately, the people in charge have realised. For a lot of the day to day volunteers, it's been obvious all along!), and in the last few months signs of a new youth group coming to life have been visible). And I also went to university. These two events made it basically impossible to volunteer regularly, and then (due to various infrastructure renewal requirements) the only event(s) which I was able to commit to stopped happening. I've not volunteered since Christmas 2022 unfortunately.
I would happily assist with various "back office"/admin tasks which could be done remotely, but the problem is I've filled up my time with other things, so would probably struggle to find time. Unfortunately I'm unable to do anything operational, for medical reasons, which removes a lot of the more interesting roles available.

Incidentally, most of the rest of the youth group membership have stayed on as volunteers, generally in operational departments, and are progressing well.

 

[Titfield]

and in later years a few questionable decisions seemed to be made about the few things we were able to do.

It may be worth reading this old thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-and-tramways-voluntary-work-bill-hl.198948/

Effectively it was illegal for young people to volunteer on a heritage railway. Ignorance of the law is no defence in law and once this law became more widely known the Directors / Trustees of Heritage Railways were compelled to review the railways activities accordingly.

I am always surprised how lightly (and dismissive) some volunteers can be of health and safety legislation. You only have to see the adverts on Facebook placed by "ambulance chasing lawyers" to appreciate the financial and reputational risk to organisations of any accident caused by failing to have safe systems of work or ignoring the legislation.
Whilst some volunteers may brush off any accident they may have, it is worth considering whether wives and children would be equally forgiving.