Should anyone have helped me? If so, who?

[setdown]

Hello, I had this experience on Thursday evening, and I’m wondering what opinions people have.

I had an itinerary from Southampton Central to Hartford. Generated by the retailer, observing the minimum connection times (just!)

1/8.
Departing Southampton Central at 17:30, arriving London Waterloo at 18:49.
Cross London on tube
Departing London Euston at 19:46, arriving at Crewe at 21:54
Departing Crewe at 22:32, arriving Hartford at 22:45.

(The 19:46 is the last train I can catch to connect to Hartford using London Northwestern trains only).

Tickets held:
Southampton Central -> London Zone 1 Off-Peak Return
London Euston -> Hartford Off-Peak Return (LNR/WMT ONLY)

Due to flooding, my 17:30 train arrived 64 minutes late into Waterloo, at 19:54. Obviously this means I miss the last train I can use from Euston to get back to Hartford that day, the 19:46. I explain this to the guard on my Southampton train, and although he says he can’t really do anything for the connections, he writes on my ticket details of my delay, and his mobile number in case verification is needed. Nice guy!

I make my way to Euston, and go straight over to the ticket office. There’s a lot of Avanti staff standing around, but no LNR. I show my tickets, my itinerary, and ask what my options are, as I now can’t get home using my tickets. “Buy a ticket for us. We don’t deal with them (LNR), and they don’t deal with us, we’re separate companies”. To be honest, I didn’t expect them to help, but I thought I’d try anyway. Not wanting to spend an extra £70 when the delay was due to the railway, I went down to the London Northwestern ticket barriers.

There was a chap on the barriers there, and to be fair, he was quite sympathetic and tried to help. He said I should be entitled to use an Avanti train to get to Crewe in time for my connection, “but you won’t be able to get on one here, they’re quite strict with the tickets”. He then proceeds to try and find a LNR train that can get me to Milton Keynes in time to change onto the faster Avanti train to Crewe. Unfortunately he finds a route just as doors shut on a service. He radios through for the manager, to see if she can help.

I repeat all my story to the LNR manager, to ask what I can do now. I’ve got my tickets, I’m following the valid itinerary, but now because of railway delays, I can’t get home. Her solution is “you can try getting a refund from the Trainline for your Euston-Hartford ticket, since you can’t use it now. It might cost you £5 but it’s the best option.” (I did say to her that I didn’t use the trainline, but oh well.) I say that I don’t want my money back, I just want to get home. She says that she can’t do anything, as none of their trains can get me to Hartford now. I explain that it was the railway’s delay that’s caused this, but she says there’s nothing she can do. I must say that despite going round in circles, it was a pleasant enough conversation, I was doing my best to be calm.

In the end, I get the 20:46 LNR service to Crewe, and a family member drives out to rescue me (not a very easy route, especially at that time of day).

So, my question is, was the railway responsible for getting me home that evening? (I know I had split tickets, but they were continuous, and I had an itinerary with allowed connections). And if so, which company’s responsibility would it have been?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it was, and as Avanti were in a position to help they should have done.

This is truly appalling. Definitely make a complaint.

 

[Haywain]

SWR should have done more than just write on the ticket. It was within their power to contact Avanti and arrange for you to travel on their train, or to arrange for a taxi to get you to Hartford from Crewe if that was also required. That doesn't remove the fact that Avanti also had an obligation to assist you, regardless of the ticket you held. I believe that you should complain to both for their failures.

Meanwhile, you are entitled to claim Delay Repay from SWR, and that should reflect not only the delay arriving at Crewe but the impossibility of getting to Hartford. In the circumstances I don't think it would be unreasonable to be claiming a reasonable amount for the cpsts incurred in picking you up from Crewe as well.

 

[Class800]

Yes it was, and as Avanti were in a position to help they should have done.

This is truly appalling. Definitely make a complaint.

I would agree. Sadly not unusual. The railway is nowhere near as strict on its own staff for their errors as it is on customers for theirs. I would suggest you write to Avanti about this as it is not in accordance with the national conditions, also if it were me I would pull a few contacts in local news and see if I could get a suitable damning story

 

[yorkie]

Avanti are in the wrong; you were entitled to be conveyed under National Rail Conditions of Carriage 28.2

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is
valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide
you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide
overnight accommodation for you.

I make my way to Euston, and go straight over to the ticket office. There’s a lot of Avanti staff standing around, but no LNR. I show my tickets, my itinerary, and ask what my options are, as I now can’t get home using my tickets. “Buy a ticket for us. We don’t deal with them (LNR), and they don’t deal with us, we’re separate companies”. To be honest, I didn’t expect them to help, but I thought I’d try anyway. Not wanting to spend an extra £70 when the delay was due to the railway, I went down to the London Northwestern ticket barriers.

The ticket office staff were utterly wrong; if it was me, I'd have got on the train regardless

In my experience, ticket office staff are not infrequently utterly useless and your experience is not inconsistent with the poor experiences of numerous others, sadly.

Train Guards can be similarly bad, however on average they do ted to be better than ticket office staff; while Avanti has some very poor Guards, there is still a reasonable chance the Guard would have acted correctly and allowed you to travel.

However unfortunately at stations like Euston, you can be denied getting as far as the Guard by barrier staff, who can also act in an appalling manner at times...

There was a chap on the barriers there, and to be fair, he was quite sympathetic and tried to help. He said I should be entitled to use an Avanti train to get to Crewe in time for my connection, “but you won’t be able to get on one here, they’re quite strict with the tickets”. He then proceeds to try and find a LNR train that can get me to Milton Keynes in time to change onto the faster Avanti train to Crewe. Unfortunately he finds a route just as doors shut on a service. He radios through for the manager, to see if she can help.

The barrier staff were also utterly wrong to do thos.

I repeat all my story to the LNR manager, to ask what I can do now. I’ve got my tickets, I’m following the valid itinerary, but now because of railway delays, I can’t get home. Her solution is “you can try getting a refund from the Trainline for your Euston-Hartford ticket, since you can’t use it now. It might cost you £5 but it’s the best option.” (I did say to her that I didn’t use the trainline, but oh well.)

This is just nonsense from poorly trained staff who don't really have a clue how to act.

I say that I don’t want my money back, I just want to get home. She says that she can’t do anything, as none of their trains can get me to Hartford now. I explain that it was the railway’s delay that’s caused this, but she says there’s nothing she can do. I must say that despite going round in circles, it was a pleasant enough conversation, I was doing my best to be calm.

In the end, I get the 20:46 LNR service to Crewe, and a family member drives out to rescue me (not a very easy route, especially at that time of day).

So, my question is, was the railway responsible for getting me home that evening? (I know I had split tickets, but they were continuous, and I had an itinerary with allowed connections). And if so, which company’s responsibility would it have been?

Yes they were responsible; Avanti were required to convey you on their train which would have made the last connection to your final destination. Instead, they stranded you, which is unacceptable.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I can't really see how Avanti comes into this, especially as WMT staff were readily available (and who the contract was with). Avanti (or any other TOC) only comes into it as a last resort if nobody else is able to assist.

It's up to WMT how they provide that assistance, it can be by arranging ticket acceptance, but there's no universal requirement or obligation to do this - they can assist in other ways, such as arranging alternative transport.

This should have been resolved by putting the customer on the next West Mids train to Crewe and arranging a taxi to Hertford, or, advising the customer to get their own, and claim it back, if that is something the customer would be happy to do. Delay repay would then apply.

 

[Watershed]

I can't really see how Avanti comes into this, especially as WMT staff were readily available (and who the contract was with). Avanti (or any other TOC) only comes into it as a last resort if nobody else is able to assist.

It's up to WMT how they provide that assistance, it can be by arranging ticket acceptance, but there's no universal requirement or obligation to do this - they can assist in other ways, such as arranging alternative transport.

This should have been resolved by putting the customer on the next West Mids train to Crewe and arranging a taxi to Hertford, or, advising the customer to get their own, and claim it back, if that is something the customer would be happy to do. Delay repay would then apply.

Avanti were clearly in a position to assist since they were running trains that would have allowed the OP to complete their journey by rail, rather than unnecessarily involving replacement transport. Accordingly condition 28.2 of the NRCoT required them to assist the OP by allowing them to travel on their services; fobbing them off to WMT was completely wrong, though I can't say I'm remotely surprised given the appalling customer service that is routinely seen at Euston.

From the taxpayer's perspective it is insupportable that the industry would rather incur the cost of replacement transport and Delay Repay than to allow someone to occupy an empty seat on a train that will run either way. Such myopic and parochial attitudes have no place in a heavily subsidised industry that is tasked with providing a public service.

 

[Haywain]

I can't really see how Avanti comes into this,

As the train operator best placed to assist the OP reaching their destination, they are definitely involved.

 

[Starmill]

I can't really see how Avanti comes into this, especially as WMT staff were readily available (and who the contract was with). Avanti (or any other TOC) only comes into it as a last resort if nobody else is able to assist.

Did you read the first post? The OP explains how they asked SWR and WMT for help and they were told nothing which would've helped them get to Hartford. As long as Avanti West Coast had at least one seat free on a train going to Crewe therefore they would have been obligated to offer it if they reasonably could.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

SWR should have done more than just write on the ticket. It was within their power to contact Avanti and arrange for you to travel on their train, or to arrange for a taxi to get you to Hartford from Crewe if that was also required. That doesn't remove the fact that Avanti also had an obligation to assist you, regardless of the ticket you held. I believe that you should complain to both for their failures.

Meanwhile, you are entitled to claim Delay Repay from SWR, and that should reflect not only the delay arriving at Crewe but the impossibility of getting to Hartford. In the circumstances I don't think it would be unreasonable to be claiming a reasonable amount for the cpsts incurred in picking you up from Crewe as well.

Indeed. At Crewe the OP could have spoken to the station staff explaining that a delay caused by SWR had resulted in being stranded. In theory they'd be obliged to use reasonable efforts to contact SWR for authorisation of a taxi. Likely Crewe staff would have been able to do that too as they do end up with passengers stranded and in need of a taxi there pretty frequently.

Of course, I totally appreciate that the OP probably didn't want to risk being stuck and unable to source their own taxi if they intended to follow this course. If OP had paid the bill for a taxi from Crewe to Hartford they'd have been entitled to claim this back from SWR of course.

 

[Belperpete]

Unfortunately the wording "any train company" is used to fob the responsibility off onto another train company. So Avanti will claim that it is WMT's responsibility, and WMT will claim that it is Avanti's responsibility. So while both could have offered assistance, neither did. In this case, we will never know if the OP would have ended up stranded, as he arranged his own transport.

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately the wording "any train company" is used to fob the responsibility off onto another train company. So Avanti will claim that it is WMT's responsibility, and WMT will claim that it is Avanti's responsibility. So while both could have offered assistance, neither did. In this case, we will never know if the OP would have ended up stranded, as he arranged his own transport.

Not so; Avanti were in a position to convey the passenger; they were compelled to do so, and had no right to direct the passenger onto a service which left them stranded.

 

[AdamWW]

I can't really see how Avanti comes into this, especially as WMT staff were readily available (and who the contract was with). Avanti (or any other TOC) only comes into it as a last resort if nobody else is able to assist.

Where does it say that?

 

[setdown]

Thanks for your input everyone; I honestly thought "that's life", but it seems from the feedback that Avanti should have been able to help. Unfortunately, what can you do in that situation? If someone is dismissing you and saying "buy a new ticket", I'd be wary of standing my ground, for fear of being mistaken as confrontational, and being kicked out of the station. The extra fare of £70 (single) is a large amount of money to spend unplanned, without being knowing if you'd be able to get it refunded in the future.

I think I'll be claiming delay repay against SWR, and then writing a complaint to Avanti. The impression I got is that they really couldn't wait to move me on, and couldn't care if I was now stranded. There'll be vulnerable people in a similar situation in the future, and I hope they get a better time of it.

 

[mangyiscute]

Thanks for your input everyone; I honestly thought "that's life", but it seems from the feedback that Avanti should have been able to help. Unfortunately, what can you do in that situation? If someone is dismissing you and saying "buy a new ticket", I'd be wary of standing my ground, for fear of being mistaken as confrontational, and being kicked out of the station. The extra fare of £70 (single) is a large amount of money to spend unplanned, without being knowing if you'd be able to get it refunded in the future.

I think I'll be claiming delay repay against SWR, and then writing a complaint to Avanti. The impression I got is that they really couldn't wait to move me on, and couldn't care if I was now stranded. There'll be vulnerable people in a similar situation in the future, and I hope they get a better time of it.

If it was up to me, I would have first gone to a train manager on the avanti train and asked them for permission to board (if I could get through the barriers) , otherwise, I would've spent the £70 on the avanti ticket, and then claimed for a refund - this refund you would be completely entitled to and if it was refused, chase them about it and if that still doesn't work seek advice on here and potentially with the ombudsman.

 

[dvboy]

In my experience some barrier staff at Euston will defer to the train manager to make a decision rather than refuse boarding. Doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[redreni]

In my experience some barrier staff at Euston will defer to the train manager to make a decision rather than refuse boarding. Doesn't hurt to ask.

Perhaps it depends how early you turn up.

My only experience of trying to board pass through Avanti's Euston gateline with a ticket for a different train (same operator), which was during industrial action when I had tweeted customer service the night before and been told in writing that I would be allowed to board the specific train I was trying to board and was able to show them this, was to

• refuse to let me past
• refuse to let me speak to the guard; and
• refuse to look at my phone screen when I explained I had written permission from Avanti to take this train with the ticket I held.

In fairness it was a bit late to consult the guard as the train was due to leave about 5 minutes after I first arrived at the gate, but my ticket was to Barrow-in-Furness and I did say to them that the guard would have 3 hours to come round and check my ticket and that if they were correct that my ticket wasn't valid, that could be sorted out on the train - there was no need to make me miss the train. There was literally no reasoning with them.

 

[AdamWW]

Perhaps it depends how early you turn up.

My only experience of trying to board pass through Avanti's Euston gateline with a ticket for a different train (same operator), which was during industrial action when I had tweeted customer service the night before and been told in writing that I would be allowed to board the specific train I was trying to board and was able to show them this, was to

• refuse to let me past
• refuse to let me speak to the guard; and
• refuse to look at my phone screen when I explained I had written permission from Avanti to take this train with the ticket I held.

In fairness it was a bit late to consult the guard as the train was due to leave about 5 minutes after I first arrived at the gate, but my ticket was to Barrow-in-Furness and I did say to them that the guard would have 3 hours to come round and check my ticket and that if they were correct that my ticket wasn't valid, that could be sorted out on the train - there was no need to make me miss the train. There was literally no reasoning with them.

I once walked past a member of barrier staff who was refusing to listen in a not entirely dissimilar circumstance - as you said, there was just no reasoning with him.
There were no automatic barriers so I didn't have to push through anything.
I was probably still in the wrong to do so (if he had listened to my argument and said no, I'd have left it at that).
I suspect though that by physically dragging me back off the platform he was also in the wrong.

If he'd told me that I needed to make my case at the customer assistance desk in the first place I'd have done so. I don't know why he couldn't say that until after he'd accosted me.
And when I did, they agreed with me and endorsed my ticket).

I'm sure I'd have been allowed to travel anyway if I'd been able to make it onto the train.

 

[redreni]

I once walked past a member of barrier staff who was refusing to listen in a not entirely dissimilar circumstance - as you said, there was just no reasoning with him.
There were no automatic barriers so I didn't have to push through anything.
I was probably still in the wrong to do so (if he had listened to my argument and said no, I'd have left it at that).
I suspect though that by physically dragging me back off the platform he was also in the wrong.

If he'd told me that I needed to make my case at the customer assistance desk in the first place I'd have done so. I don't know why he couldn't say that until after he'd accosted me.
And when I did, they agreed with me and endorsed my ticket).

I'm sure I'd have been allowed to travel anyway if I'd been able to make it onto the train.

The specific people I dealt with struck me as a bunch of thugs, to be honest. No disrespect to anyone who works there who doesn't behave thuggishly.

Which doesn't bode well for the OP's hope that vulnerable passengers, or passengers without the ability to shell out £70 without knowing how easy or difficult it may be to get it back later, will be dealt with reasonably in similar circumstances, where their journey has been disrupted and it is unclear whether or how they'll be able to reach their destination that day.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I suspect though that by physically dragging me back off the platform he was also in the wrong.

Physically laying your hands on a customer is an absolute no-no in most companies.

 

[EMB]

Had similar situation yesterday evening. Northern and London NW/WMT trains cancelled (lack of staff, last minute timetable changes, trespassers) and Avanti the only ones running from Crewe to EUS. Having stood with nothing to hold onto from Manchester to Crewe on a rammed TfW service, no LNW/WMT trains running at all, no-one to ask, and Sunday evening ticking on, I got onto the Avanti train.
The train manager was about to charge me for a new ticket, as he had just done with someone else. To be honest, I wasn’t going to argue, but he paused and phoned for advice. The message was “it’s up to you if you charge or not” and of course we were all mighty grateful that he decided not to. He even went back and refunded the person he’d just charged.

Which is all very nice, but if I’m understanding the above correctly - the National Rail Conditions of Carriage 28.2 state that he’d have been in the wrong to charge me for a new ticket? While understanding that the chances of getting that message across in the moment would have been slim to none even if I did know about it….

 

[Starmill]

Had similar situation yesterday evening. Northern and London NW/WMT trains cancelled (lack of staff, last minute timetable changes, trespassers) and Avanti the only ones running from Crewe to EUS. Having stood with nothing to hold onto from Manchester to Crewe on a rammed TfW service, no LNW/WMT trains running at all, no-one to ask, and Sunday evening ticking on, I got onto the Avanti train.
The train manager was about to charge me for a new ticket, as he had just done with someone else. To be honest, I wasn’t going to argue, but he paused and phoned for advice. The message was “it’s up to you if you charge or not” and of course we were all mighty grateful that he decided not to. He even went back and refunded the person he’d just charged.

Which is all very nice, but if I’m understanding the above correctly - the National Rail Conditions of Carriage 28.2 state that he’d have been in the wrong to charge me for a new ticket? While understanding that the chances of getting that message across in the moment would have been slim to none even if I did know about it….

If you'd tried to make contact with West Midlands Trains and they didn't respond then it's hard to see what else customers are expected to be doing. You can in future try the station staff, the LNR Twitter or Facebook pages or telephone their customer service for advice. Details are here: https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/contact-us

 

[Watershed]

Had similar situation yesterday evening. Northern and London NW/WMT trains cancelled (lack of staff, last minute timetable changes, trespassers) and Avanti the only ones running from Crewe to EUS. Having stood with nothing to hold onto from Manchester to Crewe on a rammed TfW service, no LNW/WMT trains running at all, no-one to ask, and Sunday evening ticking on, I got onto the Avanti train.
The train manager was about to charge me for a new ticket, as he had just done with someone else. To be honest, I wasn’t going to argue, but he paused and phoned for advice. The message was “it’s up to you if you charge or not” and of course we were all mighty grateful that he decided not to. He even went back and refunded the person he’d just charged.

Which is all very nice, but if I’m understanding the above correctly - the National Rail Conditions of Carriage 28.2 state that he’d have been in the wrong to charge me for a new ticket? While understanding that the chances of getting that message across in the moment would have been slim to none even if I did know about it….

That's correct - under NRCoT 28.2, if you would otherwise be stranded overnight (i.e. there were no more LNR services expected to run that day) then any train company in a position to assist you, would be obliged to do so. Charging passengers for new tickets is clearly incompatible with this obligation.

Unfortunately, as you say, most staff are completely unfamiliar with this provision - and if they are of the mindset where they feel it's acceptable morally (let alone legally) to be charging stranded customers, I doubt any amount of quoting the NRCoT will persuade them to change their mind.

 

[EMB]

I’ve sent a message to Avanti to clarify the train manager and supervisor’s ”discretionary” approach to their obligations, will post any response I might get.

Avanti were clearly in a position to assist since they were running trains that would have allowed the OP to complete their journey by rail, rather than unnecessarily involving replacement transport. Accordingly condition 28.2 of the NRCoT required them to assist the OP by allowing them to travel on their services; fobbing them off to WMT was completely wrong, though I can't say I'm remotely surprised given the appalling customer service that is routinely seen at Euston.

From the taxpayer's perspective it is insupportable that the industry would rather incur the cost of replacement transport and Delay Repay than to allow someone to occupy an empty seat on a train that will run either way. Such myopic and parochial attitudes have no place in a heavily subsidised industry that is tasked with providing a public service.

This thread should be part of the case for re-nationalisation.

 

[AlterEgo]

This thread should be part of the case for re-nationalisation.

Franchised train companies are de facto nationalised. The moronic thing here is all the revenue goes to the same place anyway - the government.

The government is passing a bill to ensure de jure nationalisation in time.

 

[Hadders]

This thread should be part of the case for re-nationalisation.

You can bet this sort of thing will continue to happen.

Nationalised LNER want reservations to be compulsory on long distance trains so I strongly suspect we'll get cases in the future where people have missed a train due to a late running train or some other disruption only to be tolsd they can't travel because they don't have a reservation.

 

[redreni]

You can bet this sort of thing will continue to happen.

Nationalised LNER want reservations to be compulsory on long distance trains so I strongly suspect we'll get cases in the future where people have missed a train due to a late running train or some other disruption only to be tolsd they can't travel because they don't have a reservation.

If that's the case it'll be because the nationalisation was half-arsed or bungled.

This sort of thing (i.e. 'that ticket is no good on this train - wrong company') was, as I understand it, rife pre-nationalisation and even more a problem pre-grouping.

For all BR's faults, this wasn't a problem in the BR era.

This specific problem would go away again under any single-operator model, whether that operator was public or private, because TOC restrictions would have to go. Whether that would mean abolishing all except the most expensive non-TOC-restricted fares would, of course, be a choice. Whether to allow the single operator to engage in LNER-style price gouging, the abolition of regulated fares and genuinely compulsory reservations would also be a choice.

Under a nationalised model it can be made as good or as bad as we like.

Under this specific scenario, though, even in a world where reservations were mandatory, if the service is up the creek and the passenger's booked train is cancelled, what do we think would happen? What rights, if any, do you imagine passengers would have in this circumstance?

At the moment the only right that is actually respected routinely without passengers getting their elbows out is the right to take the next train that complies with any route and TOC restriction on your ticket. I suspect even in your scenario, if there were only one nationalised operator, that would be upgraded to a blanket right to take the next train that complies with any route restriction. And route restrictions can be excessed away if they're not waived due to the disruption, so they're much less of a problem.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Well, back in the nationalised, sectorised period (1980 or so-1994), many specific tickets did start appearing when advance fares were invented and similar situations arose. In this period revenue was split over three passenger sectors and, for internal accounting purposes, between routes as well. What's changed is the much larger number of operator specific fares (ie. dedicated fares) as franchised operators try to compete with each other. As noted one would hope this would now be a simple thing to address, but in this case the question would be what would happen to the 'LNR Only' fares now offered. They are cheaper and expand the market. So most likely would continue eg. in guises such as 'valid only on trains that call at Northampton/Lichfield'....

The barrier staff, although apparently unaware of Clause 28.2 of NRCoC, are very much aware that some passengers can be quite determined in their quest to use cheaper tickets on more expensive trains and do not always remember the restrictions the ticket is sold under....

 

[MarlowDonkey]

This sort of thing (i.e. 'that ticket is no good on this train - wrong company') was, as I understand it, rife pre-nationalisation and even more a problem pre-grouping.

For all BR's faults, this wasn't a problem in the BR era.

How common would it have been? Were there many routes with services operated by two or more companies? There was a organisation called the "Railway Cleariing House" which allocated revenue when a ticket covered several railways.
There were obviously numerous inter-regional services which may have been operated by different companies according to operational requirements. Would it not have been the case that same route=same fare?

Competing routes such as Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill by GWR against Euston to Birmingham New Street by LNWR/LMS presumably had distinct fares and no interavailability. Is "London Termini to Birmingham stations" a British Rail invention?

When privatisation and franchising created a fragmented railway, they could perhaps have looked back to how it was operated prior to 1923.

 

[nanstallon]

We have the worst of both worlds now. A privatised system which messes the customer about over what trains they can use between two places, and into the bargain costs the taxpayer much more than good old British Rail ever did. And there is little incentive for the private operators to encourage traffic, when they are paid a 'management fee' by the government to run a micro-managed service. And at the same time has much of the old 'customer is always wrong' mentality of BR - and in all fairness BR staff attitudes had improved a lot in the 1980s.

These days, I find myself driving more, and often using National Express coaches.

 

[redreni]

Well, back in the nationalised, sectorised period (1980 or so-1994), many specific tickets did start appearing when advance fares were invented and similar situations arose. In this period revenue was split over three passenger sectors and, for internal accounting purposes, between routes as well. What's changed is the much larger number of operator specific fares (ie. dedicated fares) as franchised operators try to compete with each other. As noted one would hope this would now be a simple thing to address, but in this case the question would be what would happen to the 'LNR Only' fares now offered. They are cheaper and expand the market. So most likely would continue eg. in guises such as 'valid only on trains that call at Northampton/Lichfield'....

The barrier staff, although apparently unaware of Clause 28.2 of NRCoC, are very much aware that some passengers can be quite determined in their quest to use cheaper tickets on more expensive trains and do not always remember the restrictions the ticket is sold under....

Okay, suppose the TOC-restricted tickets were replaced with route-restricted tickets (and I think it would take a rule change to enable through tickets to exist where the route restriction requires that the train must call at specific stations, but let's assume that's what happens).

In that case, in circumstances like the OP's, the passenger would be able to board the train that doesn't comply with the routing restriction on his ticket knowing the jeopardy is that he may be asked to pay an excess fare. That is much better than a situation where the jeopardy is being told your ticket is invalid and worthless, being made to buy a new ticket and possibly being threatened in various ways if you won't or can't pay.