ScotRail cancelling services July 2024

[Davester50]

Yes - Ember explained the broken economics of the subsidy scheme well.

Thanks for that. I wasn't thinking of them in particular, and I'm not sure they can scream too much, as there's been a lot of investment from Holyrood for electric buses.
I was more thinking of the once a fortnight services to shopping centres and the seaside where the vast majority of riders seem to be from the older demographic.

It's moving to a different topic, but I will say, ScotRail should be looking over their shoulders with regard to the lost under 22 years of age customers, and a shift of modes from rail to road, not helped by how unreliable they are becoming.
I've have used Ember. Wouldn't want to be on a full service, but perfectly decent when the neighbouring seat is empty.

 

[kkong]

The elephant in the room is that the local authorities who are pretty much rooked for finance may eventually cry "foul" and seek government support for the imposition of some kind of cap on reimbursement or the provision of a less generous concession.

The concessionary fare funding is centrally settled by Transport Scotland - it doesn't involve local authorities.

 

[GordonT]

The concessionary fare funding is centrally settled by Transport Scotland - it doesn't involve local authorities.

Yep I was forgetting that responsibility had shifted.

 

[InOban]

Good explanation from Ember. The elephant in the room is that the local authorities who are pretty much rooked for finance may eventually cry "foul" and seek government support for the imposition of some kind of cap on reimbursement or the provision of a less generous concession.

The Concession scheme in Scotland is directly funded by scogov. No cost to the LAs unless they choose to extend it - eg the cost to Edinburgh of extending it to the tram.

 

[Retorus]

IIRC, this was planned to happen until guards from various depots went on strike. It's been pushed back by at least five years.

RMT ‘win’ over retention of guards on Barrhead line

THE RMT union has claimed a “significant win” after ScotRail agreed to continue driver-and-guard operation on its £63 million newly electrified line to Barrhead, and its £140m East Kilbride electrification project, on which work started earlier this year.

www.railmagazine.com

I wouldn’t mind this if it didn’t take them an absolute age to make their way down the train to open the doors.

 

[Deafdoggie]

This isn't correct. If the train is cancelled you are entitled to a full refund without fee by way of the NRCoT. With some retailers you have to go via customer services for that - did you just click refund, which would indicate a £5 fee?

I have applied to ScotRail four times over the last five years for things like, First Class not being on the train when ticket office has sold me a First Class ticket - conductor endorsed ticket, said I'd get a refund if I just popped into the destination ticket office. Well that didn't happen, and had to post the ticket and form back to Scotrail Customer Services, and that was the last I heard. Same with cancelled services. I've given up on ScotRail.

So Scotrail have replied and are refusing to refund the admin fees for the cancelled trains and refusing to refund the other fares as "travel is more difficult, but not impossible"

I've given them my itineraries and asked them how I am meant to travel if it isn't impossible? But I fear they will just say no till I either give up or take them to court.

The Scotrail train service is shockingly bad and appalling. Unbelievably their customer service is even worse. I really can't see why anyone in Scotland travels by train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So Scotrail have replied and are refusing to refund the admin fees for the cancelled trains

I would write them a letter threatening Court for the admin fees. You don't need to actually take them there.

For the others you are likely to find it difficult, because those trains are running - that's why the best advice is always to buy splits from a splitting site on one itinerary, because then a fee free refund is guaranteed if only one train is cancelled. You should theoretically get such a refund but it will be hard to obtain it, probably cost your time in excess of the cost of the fares.

I suspect we have people on here who are knowledgeable enough to say what it should include.

 

[Carntyne]

We're now back in the position where we're being asked to pretend to punters that the 600 trains a day which were cancelled never existed.

 

[kylemore]

Scotrail should be instructed by their owner to come up with a permanent timetable that can be operated without routine widespread recourse to overtime.

For instance I would prefer to have a reliable hourly six car from Kilmarnock to Glasgow than the present unreliable half hourly 2/4 cars, similarly reliable hourly 6/7 cars from Wemyss Bay and Gourock. The important thing would be to retain capacity as far as possible by operating the maximum train length using the stock made available by reducing frequency.

The owners should further instruct Scotrail to increase recruitment but only to increase frequency as and when that allows it without recourse to widespread overtime working.

Overtime is not a good thing - how can it be a good thing to have over-worked staff in a safety critical industry where alert, well rested staff should be regarded as essential? It also encourages laziness in the management with the results we see today.

Without widespread recourse to enhanced overtime rates it might be possible to increase basic rates which would address the core issue.

Off course the "Owners" will do no such thing as they comprise the utterly substandard political class at Holyrood (All parties - it would make no difference if any other party or combination thereof was in charge).

 

[Deafdoggie]

Scotrail should be instructed by their owner to come up with a permanent timetable that can be operated without routine widespread recourse to overtime.

For instance I would prefer to have a reliable hourly six car from Kilmarnock to Glasgow than the present unreliable half hourly 2/4 cars, similarly reliable hourly 6/7 cars from Wemyss Bay and Gourock. The important thing would be to retain capacity as far as possible by operating the maximum train length using the stock made available by reducing frequency.

The owners should further instruct Scotrail to increase recruitment but only to increase frequency as and when that allows it without recourse to widespread overtime working.

Overtime is not a good thing - how can it be a good thing to have over-worked staff in a safety critical industry where alert, well rested staff should be regarded as essential? It also encourages laziness in the management with the results we see today.

Without widespread recourse to enhanced overtime rates it might be possible to increase basic rates which would address the core issue.

Off course the "Owners" will do no such thing as they comprise the utterly substandard political class at Holyrood (All parties - it would make no difference if any other party or combination thereof was in charge).

Some overtime reliance is inevitable. That's fine till everyone chooses not to do it. But it's not really possible to have no reliance on overtime. Or at least it would be tremendously wasteful and expensive.

To par the service down to those levels would basically mean it wasn't worth running any trains at all. Cynics might argue that's what the government are hoping for!

 

[GordonT]

At times ScotRail do give the appearance of finding ways to make bad worse.
Random example:
Friday 2nd August - 1716 ex Edinburgh-Tweedbank - Cancelled; 1741 ex Edinburgh-Tweedbank - short formed to 2 car rather than 3 car.

 

[Scotrail84]

At times ScotRail do give the appearance of finding ways to make bad worse.
Random example:
Friday 2nd August - 1716 ex Edinburgh-Tweedbank - Cancelled; 1741 ex Edinburgh-Tweedbank - short formed to 2 car rather than 3 car.

There was a single 158 working an Inverness to Glasgow service the other day. While not ideal in the slightest, I still say its better to run something than nothing at all.

They are also being let down badly HST failures just now forcing them to pull 170s and 158s from services elsewhere leaving them short formed.

 

[Blindtraveler]

What do you mean just now? They've been being let down by the HST fleet since 2018. And nothing is going to change until someone pulls the plug on this foolish experiment designed to please middle-aged bashers

 

[Scotrail84]

What do you mean just now? They've been being let down by the HST fleet since 2018. And nothing is going to change until someone pulls the plug on this foolish experiment designed to please middle-aged bashers

You seem like an angry person. A short formed service is still better than no service at all. IMO of course.

 

[GordonT]

A short formed service is still better than no service at all. IMO of course.

It is but short forming the next Tweedbank in the wake of a cancelled one in the 1715-1745 time period particularly has the look of salt being rubbed into the wound.

 

[43066]

Scotrail should be instructed by their owner to come up with a permanent timetable that can be operated without routine widespread recourse to overtime.

For instance I would prefer to have a reliable hourly six car from Kilmarnock to Glasgow than the present unreliable half hourly 2/4 cars, similarly reliable hourly 6/7 cars from Wemyss Bay and Gourock. The important thing would be to retain capacity as far as possible by operating the maximum train length using the stock made available by reducing frequency.

The owners should further instruct Scotrail to increase recruitment but only to increase frequency as and when that allows it without recourse to widespread overtime working.

Overtime is not a good thing - how can it be a good thing to have over-worked staff in a safety critical industry where alert, well rested staff should be regarded as essential? It also encourages laziness in the management with the results we see today.

Without widespread recourse to enhanced overtime rates it might be possible to increase basic rates which would address the core issue.

Off course the "Owners" will do no such thing as they comprise the utterly substandard political class at Holyrood (All parties - it would make no difference if any other party or combination thereof was in charge).

The issue isn’t overtime per se, as the saying goes, “the railway runs on tea and overtime”. However, if your business relies heavily on goodwill, it does mean you need to keep your workforce onside. And that appears to be where Scotrail has abjectly failed.

A case in point (I don’t work for Scotrail, but all UK operators are similar to identical): I’ve agreed to come in “off shift” next week to help my operator out, and to earn some extra money. I’m being given the next day off as paid leave because my agreeing at short notice to cover a late running turn on Tuesday is worth more to them than the dead early standby turn I’d otherwise cover on Wednesday. I don’t really want to be in at 0455 on the Wednesday, so it’s mutually beneficial.

Once that goodwill disappears it becomes a lot harder.

 

[Class83]

Scotrail should be instructed by their owner to come up with a permanent timetable that can be operated without routine widespread recourse to overtime.

For instance I would prefer to have a reliable hourly six car from Kilmarnock to Glasgow than the present unreliable half hourly 2/4 cars, similarly reliable hourly 6/7 cars from Wemyss Bay and Gourock. The important thing would be to retain capacity as far as possible by operating the maximum train length using the stock made available by reducing frequency.

The owners should further instruct Scotrail to increase recruitment but only to increase frequency as and when that allows it without recourse to widespread overtime working.

Overtime is not a good thing - how can it be a good thing to have over-worked staff in a safety critical industry where alert, well rested staff should be regarded as essential? It also encourages laziness in the management with the results we see today.

Without widespread recourse to enhanced overtime rates it might be possible to increase basic rates which would address the core issue.

Off course the "Owners" will do no such thing as they comprise the utterly substandard political class at Holyrood (All parties - it would make no difference if any other party or combination thereof was in charge).

This seems the only way forward. The current fudge is resulting in the few services remaining being randomly short formed as units are out of place.

Work out a pattern within current staffing requirements which allows 6/8 car running. Issue permanent rotas to staff based on this.

Every 6 month timetable increase service based on hiring new staff so that service can be maintained, without relying on overtime except for special events or unusually high levels of sickness.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The issue isn’t overtime per se, as the saying goes, “the railway runs on tea and overtime”. However, if your business relies heavily on goodwill, it does mean you need to keep your workforce onside. And that appears to be where Scotrail has abjectly failed.

A case in point (I don’t work for Scotrail, but all UK operators are similar to identical): I’ve agreed to come in “off shift” next week to help my operator out, and to earn some extra money. I’m being given the next day off as paid leave because my agreeing at short notice to cover a late running turn on Tuesday is worth more to them than the dead early standby turn I’d otherwise cover on Wednesday. I don’t really want to be in at 0455 on the Wednesday, so it’s mutually beneficial.

Once that goodwill disappears it becomes a lot harder.

I think this is exactly the point. It cuts both ways. Once the company give up, you can't expect the workforce not to!

 

[Blindtraveler]

The sort of sustained level of disruption and chaos we are seeing yet again here also loses the Goodwill of the passengers. The local and long-distance bus and coach operators are laughing all the way to the bank and when they come out again they continue to laugh and wet themselves. As all these passengers no doubt flood onto their services, how many will return?

 

[Siemens Trains]

The sort of sustained level of disruption and chaos we are seeing yet again here also loses the Goodwill of the passengers. The local and long-distance bus and coach operators are laughing all the way to the bank and when they come out again they continue to laugh and wet themselves. As all these passengers no doubt flood onto their services, how many will return?

If passengers find they're happier using a bus rather than train in the longer term then that's not necessarily a bad thing. At least they're still using reasonably green public transport and they've found a mode that suits them pretty well (otherwise they'd choose to go back to using trains once normal timetables are restored).
I don't think you should begrudge bus operators increased fare income if they are offering a service that passengers find more attractive. Also I'm not sure that a reliance on user goodwill is a satisfactory or sustainable way to run any service, whether private or public owned.

 

[Christmas]

I'm not sure why some contributors seem desperate for maximum length trains running infrequently. Passengers want frequency and there are enough staff available at the moment to provide a far better timetable than ScotRail is currently providing.

We also have ridiculous situation of limited stop services continuing to operate when intermediate stations are forgotten about. This is unacceptable and in times of crisis, all trains should call at all stations within reason.

The problem ScotRail has is also at senior management level. It is being run by people who know absolutely nothing about the business of running trains. Most of the senior team have recently joined from places outside of even the public transport sector. A managing director who's background is in HR at a 'university', and a service delivery director, previously the head of drivers, who came from Royal Mail. Both totally out of their depths.

 

[InvHst]

What do you mean just now? They've been being let down by the HST fleet since 2018. And nothing is going to change until someone pulls the plug on this foolish experiment designed to please middle-aged bashers

Foolish experiment? middle aged bashers? you are aware yesterday during a temporary timetable that scotrail put 17 sets out on various jobs and vice units on some. Have a day off yes theirs been challenging times but some aspects have worked quite well

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

If passengers find they're happier using a bus rather than train in the longer term then that's not necessarily a bad thing. At least they're still using reasonably green public transport and they've found a mode that suits them pretty well (otherwise they'd choose to go back to using trains once normal timetables are restored).
I don't think you should begrudge bus operators increased fare income if they are offering a service that passengers find more attractive. Also I'm not sure that a reliance on user goodwill is a satisfactory or sustainable way to run any service, whether private or public owned.

And of course the bus industry as a whole has been struggling ever since COVID. It’s not all doom and gloom.

What do you mean just now? They've been being let down by the HST fleet since 2018. And nothing is going to change until someone pulls the plug on this foolish experiment designed to please middle-aged bashers

So correct me if I’m wrong. You think the HST’s were an experiment designed to please middle aged enthusiasts? What a lot of nonsense.

When Abellio took over the franchise in 2015, the commitment was for new stock to run on the soon to be electrified lines in the Central belt. The Scottish government at no point asked for the other stock to be replaced and so Abellio didn’t order any other new stock as the money didn’t justify it. Abellio opted for the HST’s when they could easily have kept status quo in their bid and had just 158’s and 170’s on the longer distance work. Perhaps the idea that they could last 15-20 years is somewhat flawed, that is true. I’m not trying to stand up for Abellio for one second, but people need to understand ScotRail loses money all over the place. Not much of the network pays for itself and a large chunk of that is used to subsidise the other bits. The HST’s were a big improvement on what was in use at the time, from a pretty bare selection of available second hand stock.

Take in contrast the East Anglia franchise, also held by Abellio, where the whole fleet was replaced. Now I’m unsure if that was a spec created by the DfT or if, as I suspect, as part of an Abellio bid. Really was it necessary? No. But the bids for franchises in and out of the capital are way more lucrative, even if they don’t make loads.

ScotRail wasn’t an attractive franchise anymore. That was the biggest reason it was nationalised. As was said by another user, First made it work due to their bus presence. National Express barely had anything while Abellio had nothing of the sort in Scotland. Were any of those franchises financially successful? No.

It is true that ScotRail will need to look at replacements for the driver only stock in the next few years, as well as the HST fleet. The 318’s and 320’s are really starting to get on now and I see little to no point in not replacing the 334’s at the same time. For its high average age though ScotRail’s fleet is pretty reliable. The 156’s will eventually be forced out by electrification and I think ScotRail will try everything to make the 158’s and 170’s last as long as possible.

 

[43066]

I think this is exactly the point. It cuts both ways. Once the company give up, you can't expect the workforce not to!

Indeed. The key to improving matters will be to build that relationship back. It might well be that more drivers and guards need to be recruited, but that is a long process, so overtime will be important to getting the service back to a good level in the short to medium term.

It’s sad to hear how far things have deteriorated in Scotland, as they’ve largely been free of the issues we’ve seen south of the border these past couple of years, as I understand it.

 

[WAB]

I'm not sure why some contributors seem desperate for maximum length trains running infrequently. Passengers want frequency and there are enough staff available at the moment to provide a far better timetable than ScotRail is currently providing.

We also have ridiculous situation of limited stop services continuing to operate when intermediate stations are forgotten about. This is unacceptable and in times of crisis, all trains should call at all stations within reason.

Are there enough staff without overtime? Given staff have every right to refuse it, and do, especially around holiday times or during industrial disputes, would it not be better to have a train plan which can be run most of the time, and with unit diagrams to suit? Rather than the current situation where 2-cars are run following large gaps?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2024 ==

The problem ScotRail has is also at senior management level. It is being run by people who know absolutely nothing about the business of running trains. Most of the senior team have recently joined from places outside of even the public transport sector. A managing director who's background is in HR at a 'university', and a service delivery director, previously the head of drivers, who came from Royal Mail. Both totally out of their depths.

You're right about the former, but the latter was a MOM, then a LOM, then the Glasgow Central Station Manager, then the Head of Control, then the Head of Drivers. If he hasn't picked up knowledge of how to run a railway after all of that, then we are in trouble!

 

[Falcon1200]

The sort of sustained level of disruption and chaos we are seeing yet again here also loses the Goodwill of the passengers. The local and long-distance bus and coach operators are laughing all the way to the bank and when they come out again they continue to laugh and wet themselves. As all these passengers no doubt flood onto their services, how many will return?

There are comments on a Facebook page about the incredibly poor service on the Far North and Kyle Lines, leading to passengers cancelling trips. Given that these routes must be among the most heavily subsidised of an already hugely taxpayer-dependent operation, I find it astonishing that the local Traincrew are prepared to create this situation; There have been proposals to close these routes in the past, do they believe they are untouchable?

the latter was a MOM, then a LOM, then the Glasgow Central Station Manager, then the Head of Control, then the Head of Drivers. If he hasn't picked up knowledge of how to run a railway after all of that, then we are in trouble!

Indeed, he was my boss for a while and is a thoroughly decent chap with, as explained, much railway experience. I do not envy his job now!

 

[scotraildriver]

I'm not sure why some contributors seem desperate for maximum length trains running infrequently. Passengers want frequency and there are enough staff available at the moment to provide a far better timetable than ScotRail is currently providing.

We also have ridiculous situation of limited stop services continuing to operate when intermediate stations are forgotten about. This is unacceptable and in times of crisis, all trains should call at all stations within reason.

The problem ScotRail has is also at senior management level. It is being run by people who know absolutely nothing about the business of running trains. Most of the senior team have recently joined from places outside of even the public transport sector. A managing director who's background is in HR at a 'university', and a service delivery director, previously the head of drivers, who came from Royal Mail. Both totally out of their depths.

Another such appointment is Hannah Ross, who has been appointed chief executive to Scottish Rail holdings. Previously of Edinburgh City council no railway experience whatsoever.

 

[Carntyne]

Another such appointment is Hannah Ross, who has been appointed chief executive to Scottish Rail holdings, replacing Alex Hynes. Previously of Edinburgh City council no railway experience whatsoever.

Alex Hynes wasn't the chief executive of Scottish Rail Holdings. It was Chris Gibb, who left because of the micromanagement of the Scottish Government.

Gibb leaves ScotRail amid ‘micro-management’ rumours

The Scottish Government is facing questions over the structure of the publicly run ScotRail, following the departure of the head of its rail holdings company

www.railmagazine.com

 

[chuff chuff]

Yeah not sure how much running they are able to do without the say so of transport scotland.Transport scotland say that pay negotiations are for scotrail to deal with but scotrail can't make a deal without transport scotlands okay.

 

[GordonT]

Yeah not sure how much running they are able to do without the say so of transport scotland.Transport scotland say that pay negotiations are for scotrail to deal with but scotrail can't make a deal without transport scotlands okay.

Sounds like a typical Catch-22.