ScotRail cancelling services July 2024

[Rockhopperr]

Couldn't agree more with that assessment

Absolutely. The unions and staff will settle for less the longer this drags on and the government know that. That's why the last few pay deals have gone to the wire. Works out cheaper.
It’s clear that, presently, the passengers or the state of the railway aren’t important.

 

[endecotp]

Say what you want about the relative pay rates vs other industries, I wonder how many people would accept an offer that reduced their standard of living year after year?

Very few workers have the luxury of choosing whether or not to accept what they are offered.

 

[Scotrail84]

Absolutely. The unions and staff will settle for less the longer this drags on and the government know that. That's why the last few pay deals have gone to the wire. Works out cheaper.
It’s clear that, presently, the passengers or the state of the railway aren’t important.

I'm not so sure thats correct. You'll probably find that the ballot will return an overwhelming yes vote for drivers to take further industrial action.

 

[Rockhopperr]

I'm not so sure thats correct. You'll probably find that the ballot will return an overwhelming yes vote for drivers to take further industrial action.

Probably. Ultimately, when it’s resolved, it’ll be a lower figure than it should be. Look at the last few years. Happy (ish) to accept well, well below inflation pay adjustment.

 

[Facing Back]

Probably. Ultimately, when it’s resolved, it’ll be a lower figure than it should be. Look at the last few years. Happy (ish) to accept well, well below inflation pay adjustment.

I'm curious about the new government's position on changes to terms and conditions. From what I read on here, that has the potential to extend or halt briefly the industrial unrest.

 

[Falcon1200]

It's not really a dispute between scotrail management and it's staff. More to do with Scottish government trying to impose the civil service pay policy on Scotrail staff and the unions opposing that. Scotrail management and staff are stuck in the middle.

Yes, that's fair enough, but I have to ask, how has the Driver rostering situation got into such a state that the first train, yesterday Sunday 28th, on a key route, a full 6 (six!) hours later than normal? Is every Driver responsible for working any part of the missing trains' diagrams on Annual Leave at the same time?

 

[snookertam]

The rostering situation has got that way based on previous efforts to resolve disputes. Instead of meeting pay demands in full, management have thrown in ridiculous perks like the right to refuse Sunday shifts. Add in over-reliance on overtime and a lack of goodwill, and here we are.

Train drivers pay has been a can that has been kicked down the road for many years, I have my doubts it will ever get resolved to everyone’s satisfaction, and if it does, it will either be with a lot of pain in the interim, or a much downsized railway in the aftermath.

We can hope that a government will come in and accept the huge losses that will be required through fully funding ScotRail at its current timetable, and a drivers pay deal that reduces overtime need and brings Sunday into the working week. I just don’t see any of that happening though.

 

[kkong]

As a general point, I am not sure why the baseline for any pay offer, private or public, isn't some variant of Retail Price Index

At a former employer of mine, whenever someone asked that question, the management said that their policy was to offer competitive pay to attract the right talent, rather than offering cost of living increase.

This was in an engineering / technology company where average pay rates were high (and unions virtually non-existent).

 

[Falcon1200]

We can hope that a government will come in and accept the huge losses that will be required through fully funding ScotRail at its current timetable, and a drivers pay deal that reduces overtime need and brings Sunday into the working week. I just don’t see any of that happening though.

I sincerely hope too that a deal will be done and Scotrail returns to providing a reliable service, however, as always, if that increases the cost (of an already massively-subsidised operation), where is the money to come from?

 

[chuff chuff]

There are already ongoing talks regarding sunday within the working week although these will take a lot of time to get anywhere near fruition as it appears it's being treated like a DRI 3 and not just a simple working out a deal to get sunday included.Not sure how it will turn out but throw enough £s into it you'll probably get plenty blinded by it.

 

[JamesT]

Having pay rises baselined to a measure like RPI or CPI does need the organisation to be growing its income by that much to be sustainable.

As a general point, I am not sure why the baseline for any pay offer, private or public, isn't some variant of Retail Price Index, because surely so much of this grief comes from the insinuation (or indeed sadly the reality) that anyone's job has become less valuable over the preceeding year, which is what a below inflation increase implies.

I am also not sure when, in the context of the Junior Doctors dispute, there isn't firmer pushback on "no, we don't want 35% INCREASE, we don't want to earn significantly less than we did in 2008."

I suspect if the pay RISE had been 0%, but had instead just tracked inflation for those years, there would really be little to no argument now.

Having pay rises baselined to a measure like RPI or CPI does need the organisation to be growing its income by that much to be sustainable. Or productivity to be growing at a suitable rate.

 

[jagardner1984]

Having pay rises baselined to a measure like RPI or CPI does need the organisation to be growing its income by that much to be sustainable.

Having pay rises baselined to a measure like RPI or CPI does need the organisation to be growing its income by that much to be sustainable. Or productivity to be growing at a suitable rate.

Sure, but fares roughly rising with inflation (or inflation plus 1%) has long been the norm.

The point is the general principle that it shouldn’t be for workers to have to negotiate for standstill pay. That should be the starting point, surely ?

If the fare box + the government investment does not meet the staffing cost, personally I’d prefer marginal increases in fares and marginal decrease in less utilised services than expecting the staff to take a pay cut to sustain unsustainable services.

Linguistically, I fail to see why we use the words “pay rise” regarding any pay settlement which does not match RPI or CPI. Because that is just a lie.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It is very hard to make any business case for railways at all. We were due to travel to Scotland and tour round by train in three weeks time. But some of the trains are now cancelled, so it becomes impossible. Trainline have bent over backwards to offer good customer service, refunding everything I booked through them, even if advance, even if that particular train is not cancelled.

Scotrail on the other hand, really treat their customers with contempt. If the train is cancelled they will only refund minus a booking fee, if the train isn't cancelled they will not refund at all. Our Inverness to Perth is cancelled, our Glasgow to Oban is cancelled, but the Perth to Glasgow is still running so they won't refund it, despite it being clearly useless to us.

And they wonder why people don't travel by train. We spent over £1,000 on train tickets, but we are now going by electric car and it'll cost under £200. No one in their right mind would choose trains, I only did because I like trains, but they have managed to put even me off. Not only is the train service bad, but the customer service is even worse. With the attitude the railway has shown me I am all for the railways having all funding pulled and they sink or swim or on their accord. It might make them reailse they need to attract and keep customers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scotrail on the other hand, really treat their customers with contempt. If the train is cancelled they will only refund minus a booking fee

This isn't correct. If the train is cancelled you are entitled to a full refund without fee by way of the NRCoT. With some retailers you have to go via customer services for that - did you just click refund, which would indicate a £5 fee?

 

[Deafdoggie]

This isn't correct. If the train is cancelled you are entitled to a full refund without fee by way of the NRCoT. With some retailers you have to go via customer services for that - did you just click refund, which would indicate a £5 fee?

Yes, and contacted customer services, but the wait is horrific. The fact it is beyond Scotrail to do it automatically says all you need to know about their attitude to the paying public. Incidentally, nowhere do they say they will refund fee free, they just hope you don't know and don't bother. On the off chance customer services make someone available I'll let you know what they say, but it will have cost me more than £5, so it is futile really. But the railway deem it an acceptable way to treat their customers,and potentially new customers too. And they expect the tax payer to stump up and fund it too

 

[Sealink]

This isn't correct. If the train is cancelled you are entitled to a full refund without fee by way of the NRCoT. With some retailers you have to go via customer services for that - did you just click refund, which would indicate a £5 fee?

I have applied to ScotRail four times over the last five years for things like, First Class not being on the train when ticket office has sold me a First Class ticket - conductor endorsed ticket, said I'd get a refund if I just popped into the destination ticket office. Well that didn't happen, and had to post the ticket and form back to Scotrail Customer Services, and that was the last I heard. Same with cancelled services. I've given up on ScotRail.

 

[realemil]

Incidentally, nowhere do they say they will refund fee free

I'm not sure that this is true, https://www.scotrail.co.uk/plan-your-journey/refunds

If your ticket is refundable, a standard £5 refund administration fee will apply. If you were unable to travel by train due to disruption or service cancellation, you can request a refund or compensation depending on your ticket type. The standard refund administration charge will be waived.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'm not sure that this is true, https://www.scotrail.co.uk/plan-your-journey/refunds

Okay, not when they tell you it's cancelled they don't!

 

[Scotrail84]

There are already ongoing talks regarding sunday within the working week although these will take a lot of time to get anywhere near fruition as it appears it's being treated like a DRI 3 and not just a simple working out a deal to get sunday included.Not sure how it will turn out but throw enough £s into it you'll probably get plenty blinded by it.

Have the drivers not sold their Sundays to be part of the working week from 2027 as part of a previous pay deal or was may mate talking crap?

 

[chuff chuff]

No,there are more talks scheduled for later in the year with the hope perhaps of coming in in 2027,drivers will get the vote on this.It will likely be a long drawn out process.

 

[Scotrail84]

No,there are more talks scheduled for later in the year with the hope perhaps of coming in in 2027,drivers will get the vote on this.It will likely be a long drawn out process.

I can't see them voting for that, it would be madness. It will take a significant pay rise to work in Sundays as part of the week. Don't be surprised if part of the deal would be converting current DOCCO services to DOO as a way of getting DOO in the back door which is ultimately what the government want long term.

Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street
Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Shotts
Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Carstairs
Edinburgh to North Berwick/Dunbar

Glasgow Central to Barrhead
Glasgow Central to East Kilbride (coming soon)
Glasgow Queen Street to Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa
Glasgow Queen Street to Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld

All of the above could go DOO almost immediately at scribble of a pen from ASLEF

 

[WAB]

Sure, but fares roughly rising with inflation (or inflation plus 1%) has long been the norm.

The point is the general principle that it shouldn’t be for workers to have to negotiate for standstill pay. That should be the starting point, surely ?

If the fare box + the government investment does not meet the staffing cost, personally I’d prefer marginal increases in fares and marginal decrease in less utilised services than expecting the staff to take a pay cut to sustain unsustainable services.

Linguistically, I fail to see why we use the words “pay rise” regarding any pay settlement which does not match RPI or CPI. Because that is just a lie.

Sounds like double dipping to me - inflation based salary as well as skills/demand based salaries. Most people on the railway and elsewhere get one or the other, not both.

 

[chuff chuff]

I can't see them voting for that, it would be madness. It will take a significant pay rise to work in Sundays as part of the week. Don't be surprised if part of the deal would be converting current DOCCO services to DOO as a way of getting DOO in the back door which is ultimately what the government want long term.

Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street
Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Shotts
Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Carstairs
Edinburgh to North Berwick/Dunbar

Glasgow Central to Barrhead
Glasgow Central to East Kilbride (coming soon)
Glasgow Queen Street to Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa
Glasgow Queen Street to Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld

All of the above could go DOO almost immediately at scribble of a pen from ASLEF

Yeah there will a lot of t&c's thrown into the pot and I don't think there's a hell of a lot of cash to make it tempting though when these talks were first mentioned there were a lot of guys going round with £ signs in their eyes probably thinking about the Welsh deal.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I wonder what percentage of the Scottish Government's outgoings gets spent on The Railways (including vehicle rental, staff, network maintenance etc)?

 

[northscots]

Yes, and contacted customer services, but the wait is horrific. The fact it is beyond Scotrail to do it automatically says all you need to know about their attitude to the paying public. Incidentally, nowhere do they say they will refund fee free, they just hope you don't know and don't bother. On the off chance customer services make someone available I'll let you know what they say, but it will have cost me more than £5, so it is futile really. But the railway deem it an acceptable way to treat their customers,and potentially new customers too. And they expect the tax payer to stump up and fund it too

Just fill in the very simple form on the website and get a full refund with no fees deducted. It's not complicated at all. A quick google search for scotrail refunds and it comes straight up, no need to be searching through websites or phoning a call centre.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2024 ==

Very few workers have the luxury of choosing whether or not to accept what they are ofoffered.

Then they should join a union.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Just fill in the very simple form on the website and get a full refund with no fees deducted. It's not complicated at all. A quick google search for scotrail refunds and it comes straight up, no need to be searching through websites or phoning a call centre.

But it is beyond scotrail to put it in the link they email you to say claim a refund. Why would anyone google how to claim a refund when they have sent you a direct link to claim to claim one? There is only reason, total contempt for customers and hope they can get away with it.

 

[snookertam]

Yeah there will a lot of t&c's thrown into the pot and I don't think there's a hell of a lot of cash to make it tempting though when these talks were first mentioned there were a lot of guys going round with £ signs in their eyes probably thinking about the Welsh deal.

Would you prefer Sundays not to be part of the working week for drivers?

 

[sannox]

I can't see them voting for that, it would be madness. It will take a significant pay rise to work in Sundays as part of the week. Don't be surprised if part of the deal would be converting current DOCCO services to DOO as a way of getting DOO in the back door which is ultimately what the government want long term.

Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street
Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Shotts
Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Carstairs
Edinburgh to North Berwick/Dunbar

Glasgow Central to Barrhead
Glasgow Central to East Kilbride (coming soon)
Glasgow Queen Street to Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa
Glasgow Queen Street to Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld

All of the above could go DOO almost immediately at scribble of a pen from ASLEF

Couldn't EK and Barrhead go DOO as part of the Strathclyde Manning Agreement anyway?

In any case you are probably right that cost savings will come with cost rises in salaries. Be interesting to see what comes out.

 

[chuff chuff]

Would you prefer Sundays not to be part of the working week for drivers?

To be honest not a big fan of the idea,however will wait for the detail but piles of money ain't much good when you hand so much back in tax.

 

[ld0595]

Couldn't EK and Barrhead go DOO as part of the Strathclyde Manning Agreement anyway?

IIRC, this was planned to happen until guards from various depots went on strike. It's been pushed back by at least five years.

RMT ‘win’ over retention of guards on Barrhead line

THE RMT union has claimed a “significant win” after ScotRail agreed to continue driver-and-guard operation on its £63 million newly electrified line to Barrhead, and its £140m East Kilbride electrification project, on which work started earlier this year.

www.railmagazine.com

THE RMT union has claimed a “significant win” after ScotRail agreed to continue driver-and-guard operation on its £63 million newly electrified line to Barrhead, and its £140m East Kilbride electrification project, on which work started earlier this year.

As a result, six days of strike action by guards at Ayr, Dumfries, Glasgow Central and Stranraer depots - scheduled for three consecutive weekends on May 18/19, 25/26 and June 1/2 (RAIL 1009) - have been called off.

Instead, ScotRail has agreed a five-year period in which to negotiate any changes, by which time the East Kilbride scheme will also be completed (due December 2025).

ScotRail had wanted to introduce the Strathclyde Manning Agreement (SMA), which allows trains to run without a guard on newly electrified routes.

This is fiercely opposed by the RMT, and is a view shared by RMT members. In a ballot with a 79% turnout, 97% voted for strikes.

Announcing that it has “successfully retained the guard and all the responsibilities of the role on every train… with conductors continuing to dispatch trains, including full control of the doors on departure and performing their safety critical duties”, RMT General Secretary Mick Lynch called it “a significant win for our members”.

He said it was a result of a “culmination of their steadfastness in putting on a strong set of strike days”, adding: “Our union's industrial strength and resolve has forced ScotRail and the Scottish Government to be reasonable and allowed our representatives to secure a negotiated settlement.”

In a statement, ScotRail said it had reached agreement with the RMT after conciliation through the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service (ACAS).

“ScotRail and the RMT have agreed that consultation will take place on the mode of operation on routes where new electric trains will be deployed, which is anticipated to be around 2030,” it said.

“This allows for more than five years to carry out meaningful consultation.”

ScotRail Customer Operations Director Phil Campbell added: “Ahead of the introduction of new electric trains, ScotRail will consult with trade union colleagues about the mode of operation.”