Ending journey short on an Advance ticket

[zero]

A number of years ago I did something similar. The following did not actually take place at Crewe but I have changed the stations to match the scenario to this thread:

- I held a "Nantwich to Crewe" paper ticket and boarded at "Nantwich". When I arrived at "Crewe", I changed train and departed by train on a different ticket.

- Later that day, I passed through "Crewe" again and wanted to break my journey there. I believed the ticket I was using was valid to travel via "Crewe", however for various reasons I suspected it would not work the barriers at "Crewe".

- As I still had my "Nantwich to Crewe" ticket from earlier, I decided to use it to exit the barriers to avoid a staff confrontation. However, they didn't open! No railcard or anything special. To this day I'm still not sure why it didn't work.

- So I inserted the actual ticket I was using and as expected it didn't work either. The staff member got confused when they saw the origin and destination, but accepted my story that the guard on my incoming train had accepted the ticket.

 

[Russel]

I do an early morning journey from Lichfield to Penrith a few times a year on advance tickets, changing at Crewe where I usually have a half hour connection, I nearly always leave the station to nip to the Greggs around the corner to grab a bacon roll and a coffee, the gateline staff have never had an issue with this, or even questioned what I'm doing.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If the previous train from Nantwich arrived 50 mins ago and your ticket is rejected for any reason (for example a Railcard that's set for manual inspection) you're going to have a hard time explaining why you fancied sampling the "delights" of Crewe station for the last 49 mins.

Nobody has ever gone train spotting at Crewe!

Nobody has ever gone trainspotting at Crewe!

No staff at Crewe will bat an eyelid at a Nantwich (or Alsager) ticket.

 

[MalaiseForever]

I think giving that advice is problematic for several reasons:-

Firstly, you are suggesting that someone buys a ticket from a nearby station to get through the barriers, even though they won't have done that journey. The purchasing of such a ticket clearly suggests that the individual knows they shouldn't stop short, and is trying to circumvent the rules on Advance tickets. I'd suggest that if caught the TOC will take a dim view of such an approach, which might override any discretion it would otherwise be inclined to give.

Secondly, in my view it's fraudulent. You bought the ticket purely to exit the barriers knowing by doing so you are breaching the terms of the ticket you were using for travel.

"But you won't get caught". Well maybe not, although that is very much relying on the railway not having any "short ticket evasion" monitoring in place at Nantwich and Crewe, maybe to pick up fare evasion on the line from Shrewsbury. That may well be the case, but it's a gamble, especially if you aren't familiar with the locality. And as @Watershed pointed out, there are other ways in which your ticket might attract attention if subject to a manual check.

I'm not giving or suggesting anything actually. I was merely commenting that Crewe - Nantwich is a common journey.

 

[trainophile]

Did something similar yesterday. Had an Advance from Hereford to Southport, intending a night there before travelling to Morecambe for one of my 2-night mini breaks.

Decided out of respect not to intrude in Southport’s appalling events, so booked an extra night in Morecambe (lucky to be able to extend forwards my booked hotel at short notice).

Used my existing ticket to Wigan, bought a Wigan to Preston staying on same Avanti train, which was a Blackpool service so didn’t go to Lancaster, a Preston to Lancaster on TPE and a single to Morecambe. It all worked out well and only cost me an extra £12 for the tickets (with railcard) plus the hotel night.

Not a word was said, no ticket check on the Avanti anyway.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I'm not giving or suggesting anything actually. I was merely commenting that Crewe - Nantwich is a common journey.

It is certainly a common fare purchased.

Coincidentally, it's also the fare that results in a fair few being reported for prosecution. Nantwich does get regular visits from Transport Investigations Limited on behalf of Transport for Wales, and presenting oneself at Crewe with a Nantwich e-ticket without an entry scan or without a paper ticket being marked in a certain way by the inspector is going to result in more than a few questions when these operations occur.

If a customer is so confident that their ticket is valid, then they shouldn't be purchasing completely irrelevant or inappropriate fares for the sole purpose of exiting a gateline.

 

[BongoStar]

I still don't get what the problem on ending short would be.

Say I took a London Euston to Chester advance ticket changing at Crewe. This is a specified itinerary and I must take that. Hypothetically if I miss the assigned onward connection for no fault of ToC, say napped too long, was in the loo too long, etc etc, I don't have any default entitlement to get on the next available train - meaning my journey has ended. Why would exiting the station then be an issue?

Ofcourse if the ticket was not an Advance, the gateline staff can question on why not take the next train, but for an Advance, there is no reason to be suspicious.

I have missed a connection once on Advance as I was on the wrong platform and exited the station, and took a bus to my destination as it was way way cheaper than buying a ticket for the remainder leg.

 

[OscarH]

presenting oneself at Crewe with a Nantwich e-ticket without an entry scan or without a paper ticket being marked in a certain way by the inspector

Or another reasonable explanation like other tickets as part of a set of splits you'd hope! That said if that bunch incompetent thugs TIL are involved it any hope of a profession and useful operation is gone

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I still don't get what the problem on ending short would be.

Say I took a London Euston to Chester advance ticket changing at Crewe. This is a specified itinerary and I must take that. Hypothetically if I miss the assigned onward connection for no fault of ToC, say napped too long, was in the loo too long, etc etc, I don't have any default entitlement to get on the next available train - meaning my journey has ended. Why would exiting the station then be an issue?

Ofcourse if the ticket was not an Advance, the gateline staff can question on why not take the next train, but for an Advance, there is no reason to be suspicious.

I have missed a connection once on Advance as I was on the wrong platform and exited the station, and took a bus to my destination as it was way way cheaper than buying a ticket for the remainder leg.

It's more of an issue (and the only time it's really enforced) when there is a fare difference or more generous time restrictions.

E.g. An Advance from A-C is cheaper than A-B and you finish short to avoid paying the proper A-B price.

Happens quite regularly at places like Chester/North Wales and Preston/Lancaster etc where Avanti have more generous time restrictions. Customers from Preston try to start short with a ticket from Lancaster. Same at Chester where people buy tickets from Shotton, Flint etc and try and start short at Chester to avoid paying the Anytime fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2024 ==

Or another reasonable explanation like other tickets as part of a set of splits you'd hope! That said if that bunch incompetent thugs TIL are involved it any hope of a profession and useful operation is gone

It's Avanti Revenue Protection if there's an operation on at Crewe, occasionally supported by West Midlands Trains/Northern. They obviously speak to TfW/TIL when there's a joint operation involving Nantwich and Sandbach.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It is certainly a common fare purchased.

Coincidentally, it's also the fare that results in a fair few being reported for prosecution. Nantwich does get regular visits from Transport Investigations Limited on behalf of Transport for Wales, and presenting oneself at Crewe with a Nantwich e-ticket without an entry scan or without a paper ticket being marked in a certain way by the inspector is going to result in more than a few questions when these operations occur.

If a customer is so confident that their ticket is valid, then they shouldn't be purchasing completely irrelevant or inappropriate fares for the sole purpose of exiting a gateline.

If Nantwich is a problem, and I really suspect it isn't, then use Alsager which never has any revenue protection at all.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

If Nantwich is a problem, and I really suspect it isn't, then use Alsager which never has any revenue protection at all.

This is awful advice. No passenger should be buying tickets that they have no intention of using legitimately, purely to pass through a gateline. Arguably it is bordering on fraudulent, if you're obtaining an additional, irrelevant ticket for the sole purpose of attempting to hide your travel on a different ticket that doesn't permit ending at that location.

 

[Deafdoggie]

This is awful advice. No passenger should be buying tickets that they have no intention of using legitimately, purely to pass through a gateline. Arguably it is bordering on fraudulent, if you're obtaining an additional, irrelevant ticket for the sole purpose of attempting to hide your travel on a different ticket that doesn't permit ending at that location.

But the railway has made this situation for itself. Even though the passenger isn't making any financial gain from stopping short, there's absolutely zero guarantee the railway won't prosecute and they won't refund the original ticket. What do they think people will do when their plans change?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the railway has made this situation for itself. Even though the passenger isn't making any financial gain from stopping short, there's absolutely zero guarantee the railway won't prosecute and they won't refund the original ticket. What do they think people will do when their plans change?

I certainly find it poor that you can only change Advances like for like, and can't pay the admin fee plus fare difference to change (shorten) the origin or destination, because it's quite natural that people will want to do that. With low cost airlines you can normally change anything for anything, you just pay the change fee and the remaining credit goes into the new purchase. This is one of the many significant issues with the way we've moved to Advances being the default rather than just a cheapo "value" option used by a minority.

However, committing borderline fraud isn't a great way to deal with that issue.

The "workaround" that is generally felt acceptable on here (though probably somewhat expensive for this case; it's usually more used for stuff like getting off at Stockport instead of Manchester Piccadilly) is that you purchase a walk up single from the destination of the Advance to the place where you want to get off, and then ask the guard if it's OK just to get off rather than actually going to the end and back again. However even that is a bit risky with the way some TOCs have got very prosecution-happy over relatively minor things.

 

[lachlan]

I still don't get what the problem on ending short would be.

Say I took a London Euston to Chester advance ticket changing at Crewe. This is a specified itinerary and I must take that. Hypothetically if I miss the assigned onward connection for no fault of ToC, say napped too long, was in the loo too long, etc etc, I don't have any default entitlement to get on the next available train - meaning my journey has ended. Why would exiting the station then be an issue?

Ofcourse if the ticket was not an Advance, the gateline staff can question on why not take the next train, but for an Advance, there is no reason to be suspicious.

I have missed a connection once on Advance as I was on the wrong platform and exited the station, and took a bus to my destination as it was way way cheaper than buying a ticket for the remainder leg.

On an anytime ticket you may wish to break your journey and leave the station. Or even on an advance, if you have a generous connection time you may do the same. I've done so numerous times and never had any problems getting staff to let me out (and in)

 

[John R]

On an anytime ticket you may wish to break your journey and leave the station. Or even on an advance, if you have a generous connection time you may do the same. I've done so numerous times and never had any problems getting staff to let me out (and in)

Though the OP holds and advance ticket from Euston to Liverpool, so the option would not arise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2024 ==

This is awful advice. No passenger should be buying tickets that they have no intention of using legitimately, purely to pass through a gateline. Arguably it is bordering on fraudulent, if you're obtaining an additional, irrelevant ticket for the sole purpose of attempting to hide your travel on a different ticket that doesn't permit ending at that location.

I don't think there is any argument that it is fraudulent for the reason you give. If you want to end your journey short in breach of the terms of the ticket the right way to do it is to ask to be given discretion to do so, not to buy a ticket for a journey that you won't take, purely to facilitate breaching the terms of your ticket.

 

[Haywain]

there's absolutely zero guarantee the railway won't prosecute

Can you show any evidence that this has ever been attempted in these circumstances?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Can you show any evidence that this has ever been attempted in these circumstances?

A casual Google reveals many cases indeed, although not all prosecuted there were excess fares (many times the value of the actual fate paid) and out of court settlements. So, yes, it has happened.

 

[Haywain]

there were excess fares

If travelling on the correct train, then an excess fare is the appropriate way to deal with this sort of ituation, but industry guidance is that this should only be charged if it can be shown that the Advance ticket was being used as a means of avoiding a higher fare. In the case of this thread I cannot see that this could be demonstrated.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The question is: what happens if a passenger leaves the train, proclaiming to be feeling unwell and wanting to go to the nearest pharmacy?

Having said that, this is yet another example of where "industry guidance" is entirely discretionary and very subjective.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The question is: what happens if a passenger leaves the train, proclaiming to be feeling unwell and wanting to go to the nearest pharmacy?

Having said that, this is yet another example of where "industry guidance" is entirely discretionary and very subjective.

You run the risk they might call an ambulance!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The only prosecutions that I know about, that are semi related to this thread, were some Preston commuters (pre COVID) who were intentionally, regularly starting short and abusing the Lancaster Off Peak ticket and who refused to pay the (very sizeable) excess fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only prosecutions that I know about, that are semi related to this thread, were some Preston commuters (pre COVID) who were intentionally, regularly starting short and abusing the Lancaster Off Peak ticket and who refused to pay the (very sizeable) excess fares.

TBH for that case I'd just go to Lancaster and back. The saving is so huge that it's worth the 40 minutes.

(This is why longer distance WCML Off Peaks have break of journey restrictions - which is really annoying as it includes very long journeys e.g. to Kyle/Wick where you may want to overnight en route)

 

[John R]

TBH for that case I'd just go to Lancaster and back. The saving is so huge that it's worth the 40 minutes.

(This is why longer distance WCML Off Peaks have break of journey restrictions - which is really annoying as it includes very long journeys e.g. to Kyle/Wick where you may want to overnight en route)

Surely if your itinerary runs over two days you are perfectly entitled to break your journey?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely if your itinerary runs over two days you are perfectly entitled to break your journey?

On the outward portion of an Off Peak Return you generally can, yes, that's the "if the journey can't be completed in one day" thing - but a BoJ restriction would at least appear to override that.

Of course arriving on the last train and leaving on the first couldn't be seen as break of journey as such, as you are continuing it as soon as possible (and the definition based on being on railway property has long gone) but equally that would usually mean too little sleep between the two.

 

[Haywain]

This is why longer distance WCML Off Peaks have break of journey restrictions - which is really annoying as it includes very long journeys e.g. to Kyle/Wick where you may want to overnight en route

Most of the long distance fares from London to north and east Scotland are priced by LNER and don't have a break of journey restriction. However, they are all singles!

 

[MrJeeves]

You run the risk they might call an ambulance!

"I was having an episode on the loo and decided to go and get some Immodium"

 

[317 forever]

Yes - I've had an AP ticket accepted by the gates at Leeds all four times in the past couple of days when I've been popping out to the shops between services (ticket was Manchester to York on NT services only).

This was an eTicket. I don't know if they're fussier with paper!

On August Bank Holiday 2014 I asked to exit the platforms at Leeds on an Advance from Bradford Interchange to Darlington so that I could go to WH Smith (which admittedly was to buy transport magazines), and he did let me through.

 

[redreni]

But the railway has made this situation for itself. Even though the passenger isn't making any financial gain from stopping short, there's absolutely zero guarantee the railway won't prosecute and they won't refund the original ticket. What do they think people will do when their plans change?

If the stopping short is due to a change of plans, then it is not done to avoid a higher fare. So prosecution doesn't enter into it. The worst that could be due is an excess, but the internal guidance says it shouldn't be enforced.

I imagine what they think people will do in this situation is get off at Crewe and present their ticket for inspection if required, and then (again, if required) give a truthful explanation of why they're stopping short. I personally would rather have that conversation than buy another ticket I don't need.