Hi, I have an Avanti Advance single from Euston to Liverpool Lime St. Can I leave the train at Crewe (as by chance I will have a family member passing Crewe by car who can give me a lift home direct to the Wirral, saving me the faff of going to Lime St and changing onto Merseyrail), or might I get into a problem at the Crewe gateline or any station revenue teams if they’re out there then? As far as I know I’m not getting any fare advantage. Many thanks!
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Ending journey short on an Advance ticket
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156421
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Technically no you cannot but this is highly unlikely to be enforced
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Runcorn is nearer, unless they are already in Crewe.
The Advance ticket terms and conditions prohibit break of journey, which includes starting your journey after the origin shown on your ticket, or finishing it before the destination.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) state that the penalty for breaking your journey where your ticket doesn't permit it is that you have to pay the difference to the cheapest valid ticket permitting break of journey.
As you're travelling with Avanti that would be the difference to the Off-Peak or Anytime Single routed "Any Permitted" (depending on the time of your train from Euston), costing £69.40 or £142.10 respectively. It is not something for which you can be issued with a Penalty Fare (Penalty Fares don't apply on Avanti anyway, or prosecuted as there is no offence committed provided you are willing and able to pay the difference.
However, internal industry guidance for rail staff is not to charge the customer for break of journey on an Advance ticket, unless there is evidence of intent to avoid a higher fare. Given the nature of your proposed break of journey at Crewe I doubt any such intent could be shown, so the industry guidance would suggest you shouldn't be charged anything. Still, this internal guidance isn't something you can rely on, if you are charged.
Ultimately the "safe" option would be to alight at an unbarriered station such as Runcorn. Always an outside chance of an RPI blockade but the odds of encountering one on any given day will be very slim.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) state that the penalty for breaking your journey where your ticket doesn't permit it is that you have to pay the difference to the cheapest valid ticket permitting break of journey.
As you're travelling with Avanti that would be the difference to the Off-Peak or Anytime Single routed "Any Permitted" (depending on the time of your train from Euston), costing £69.40 or £142.10 respectively. It is not something for which you can be issued with a Penalty Fare (Penalty Fares don't apply on Avanti anyway, or prosecuted as there is no offence committed provided you are willing and able to pay the difference.
However, internal industry guidance for rail staff is not to charge the customer for break of journey on an Advance ticket, unless there is evidence of intent to avoid a higher fare. Given the nature of your proposed break of journey at Crewe I doubt any such intent could be shown, so the industry guidance would suggest you shouldn't be charged anything. Still, this internal guidance isn't something you can rely on, if you are charged.
Ultimately the "safe" option would be to alight at an unbarriered station such as Runcorn. Always an outside chance of an RPI blockade but the odds of encountering one on any given day will be very slim.
156421
On Moderation
Depending on the specific staff they are sometimes reluctant but they have never refused me egress/access when I have an advance ticket, to go out for say a smoke when waiting for a connection.
Yes - I've had an AP ticket accepted by the gates at Leeds all four times in the past couple of days when I've been popping out to the shops between services (ticket was Manchester to York on NT services only).
This was an eTicket. I don't know if they're fussier with paper!
Deafdoggie
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Or you could buy a Nantwich to Crewe single for £1.20 to get out
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would very much recommend against doing that - doughnutting (which it looks like) is very much looked out for now.
trainophile
Established Member
I have a similar situation coming up, also for a genuine reason. I'm booked on an Advance Newcastle to Liverpool South Parkway on a Friday, changing at Man Vic (walk to Man Picc), and intended to return to Hereford on the next day, a Saturday. However given WMR's recent track record on Saturday services between Birmingham and Hereford, I decided it made more sense to come back directly on the Friday, as they seem to be a bit more reliable on weekdays.
As there is a 10 minute dwell at MCV, where I would have to leave the train for my connection anyway, I bought another ticket MCV-Lime Street, staying on the same TPE train, and a further ticket LIV-HFD via BHM. As I'd be leaving the train anyway, I'm hoping I can get away with re-boarding (my reservations are from coach C to coach A), and present my new ticket to complete the journey to LIV.
As I will have valid(?) tickets covering the entire journey, can I just present my MCV-LIV ticket if asked, as although I would have theoretically short-finished on the original ticket, by then it's history so they can't really retrospectively accuse me of anything? Does anyone know if TPE change crew at MCV on this route, which would be ideal in my situation?
As there is a 10 minute dwell at MCV, where I would have to leave the train for my connection anyway, I bought another ticket MCV-Lime Street, staying on the same TPE train, and a further ticket LIV-HFD via BHM. As I'd be leaving the train anyway, I'm hoping I can get away with re-boarding (my reservations are from coach C to coach A), and present my new ticket to complete the journey to LIV.
As I will have valid(?) tickets covering the entire journey, can I just present my MCV-LIV ticket if asked, as although I would have theoretically short-finished on the original ticket, by then it's history so they can't really retrospectively accuse me of anything? Does anyone know if TPE change crew at MCV on this route, which would be ideal in my situation?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Why go to Liverpool to get to Brum? Why not just go to Brum from Manchester?
trainophile
Established Member
Timings. I save an hour by staying on the original train. As it is I'll get back after all the buses have finished for the day, so I'm wanting a lift home from he who doesn't like driving in the dark, (this is late Sept) and I'm pushing my luck already!
Haywain
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Do you not lose that again by going to Liverpool?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And because Manchester-Brum is faster than Liverpool-Brum?
trainophile
Established Member
Well I may have missed the optimum way, but tbh I never even thought about MCV-(MAN)-BHM-HFD. I'm so used to my usual LIV-BHM-HFD route, it's autopilot now to assume that's the best way.
Having just looked into it, I find that yes I could have saved an hour on the final arrival time (but still too late for the last bus - we are not well provided here in the sticks), but it would have cost me £7.50 more than I paid for the additional tickets I've already bought, so I'm happy with that. Every little helps
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I admit I'm no expert on all the options, but I'll know next time, if there is one! Appreciate your comments folks.
Having just looked into it, I find that yes I could have saved an hour on the final arrival time (but still too late for the last bus - we are not well provided here in the sticks), but it would have cost me £7.50 more than I paid for the additional tickets I've already bought, so I'm happy with that. Every little helps
.I admit I'm no expert on all the options, but I'll know next time, if there is one! Appreciate your comments folks.
Yes.
In theory they have 6 years to pursue the unpaid excess fare, this being the civil statute of limitations. But in practice it would take an exceptionally eagle-eyed RPI or guard, who was onboard both before and after MCV and checked you both times, for this to be noticed. Even then there is every chance that with your explanation they would let you off.
Generally not, only a few of those trains have a change of traincrew there.
I suspect nobody is checking for this sort of stuff now, but in the future programs could be written to analyse scan history for short-finishing etc and if a pattern emerged further investigation could be started.
In practice, when I use split tickets, at the time of ticket checks I only show the ticket that is "in use". When the same guard does a later check they only ever seem to remember that I've been checked and just skip me (and if it's a new guard who says "tickets from XX", i.e. not expecting to check everyone, half of the time they ignore me anyway).
If the train is crowded I highly doubt any guard will remember the destination of a particular passenger's ticket unless there is something special to trigger their recall
This would only be possible if gatelines operated full time (there are times they are left open even at London terminals) or the terms and conditions were changed that you must scan your ticket even if the gates are open, similar to how you must tap out on Oyster.
Just turn up at the ticket barrier and say you feel sick and needed to get some fresh air…!
Not sure that the air in the Nantwich Road area of Crewe is particularly fresh though, it normally stinks of weed!
gray1404
Established Member
I have had staff reluctantly let me out at Crewe between connections and then been questioned when I've returned for my connection when using an Advance.
Would Runcorn be an option for you to get off at and get picked up from there?
Would Runcorn be an option for you to get off at and get picked up from there?
MalaiseForever
Member
It would open the barriers so no need to speak to staff anyway in that case. I often have a single from Nantwich to Crewe as it is more convenient than buses for me and never once have I been queried on that ticket.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Until it doesn't and you end up fending off a prosecution (even where one shouldn't take place).
It really is a very, very bad idea. If you must do it, use a paper ticket purchased using cash (if there are any cash TVMs left).
How are the staff to know that you didn't genuinely make that journey?
MalaiseForever
Member
Why? It’s a totally legitimate journey to make. 100s a day do it in the week for work and plenty more on the weekends for leisure.
No way you’d get singled out.
If the previous train from Nantwich arrived 50 mins ago and your ticket is rejected for any reason (for example a Railcard that's set for manual inspection) you're going to have a hard time explaining why you fancied sampling the "delights" of Crewe station for the last 49 mins.
156421
On Moderation
Station tavern still exists as far as I'm aware
MalaiseForever
Member
Fair point!
I think giving that advice is problematic for several reasons:-
Firstly, you are suggesting that someone buys a ticket from a nearby station to get through the barriers, even though they won't have done that journey. The purchasing of such a ticket clearly suggests that the individual knows they shouldn't stop short, and is trying to circumvent the rules on Advance tickets. I'd suggest that if caught the TOC will take a dim view of such an approach, which might override any discretion it would otherwise be inclined to give.
Secondly, in my view it's fraudulent. You bought the ticket purely to exit the barriers knowing by doing so you are breaching the terms of the ticket you were using for travel.
"But you won't get caught". Well maybe not, although that is very much relying on the railway not having any "short ticket evasion" monitoring in place at Nantwich and Crewe, maybe to pick up fare evasion on the line from Shrewsbury. That may well be the case, but it's a gamble, especially if you aren't familiar with the locality. And as @Watershed pointed out, there are other ways in which your ticket might attract attention if subject to a manual check.
A rather mediocre and expensive pub, yes. Would certainly be unusual for anyone to want to have a pint there after the parched 5-minute journey from Nantwich - when there is a wide selection of half-decent, and certainly much cheaper, pubs just minutes from the station entrance on Nantwich Rd.
The station pub is also only open 10am-7pm most days (until 9pm Fri-Sun) whereas the barriers are generally in operation from the first train until 10pm...
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