CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Lurcheroo]

Except 003 which is currently an ETCS test unit but will eventually join the main fleet, rather than the Cambrian fleet.

That’s interesting? I’ve not heard they’re reducing the Cambrian fleet to 20?
I did hear a rumour that they were going to have it at only 14 and restrict those units to Cambrian only but I don’t see much merit in that.

 

[Jez]

Thats good news that the Standard Plus upgrade will soon be rolled out. I assume for diagramming purposes the standard plus will be different from the normal 3 car diagrams to ensure the right sets are used on the right services.

I only need 197117 and 197125 out of those in service. Hopefully I will get those soon and the other 5 that should be in service soon I hope.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==

I have 119, 121, 123, 124 and 126 of the non-Cambrian yet to enter service. All 2 car non-Cambrian are in service.

I wonder what the hold up getting those 5 into service? They seemed to introduce several new ones into service in quick succession and then nothing for a few months.

 

[BillStampy]

I wonder what the hold up getting those 5 into service? They seemed to introduce several new ones into service in quick succession and then nothing for a few months.

Seem to be constantly going back and forward between Chester and Crewe every few days or week, unless it's other units.

 

[Northerngirl]

Realtime Trains | 2F84 1559 Wrexham Central to Bidston | 26/07/2024

Real-time train running information for 2F84 1559 departure from Wrexham Central to Bidston on 26/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looks like 042 had an issue today, I saw it going very slowly sounded like one engine

 

[Andy Pacer]

Realtime Trains | 2F84 1559 Wrexham Central to Bidston | 26/07/2024

Real-time train running information for 2F84 1559 departure from Wrexham Central to Bidston on 26/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looks like 042 had an issue today, I saw it going very slowly sounded like one engine

Showing as on Ebbw Vale today, hoping it is as its my only high numbered 2 car left to travel on.

 

[Jez]

I noticed the 1101 Milford Haven to Manchester service is a 150 today. I wonder if this will end up getting swapped at Cardiff to avoid a 150 going to Manchester.

Edit - just seen RTT has updated to show it will be swapped for a 2 car 197. 197018 from Cardiff Central.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Showing as on Ebbw Vale today, hoping it is as its my only high numbered 2 car left to travel on.

Sure enough 197042 is on Ebbw Vale (saw it earlier in Cardiff), so hopefully should catch up with it later.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Reported today that CAF Chester had 38 197’s available to cover 43 diagrams with 150’s also covering 5 diagrams and 1 being uncovered. Not a great day.

 

[Gordonman]

Reported today that CAF Chester had 38 197’s available to cover 43 diagrams with 150’s also covering 5 diagrams and 1 being uncovered. Not a great day.

I've counted 43 in service

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I've counted 43 in service

There are 51 units currently accepted for service. So in theory there should be plenty to cover the required diagrams, although it would appear reliability needs improvement!

 

[Krokodil]

That’s interesting? I’ve not heard they’re reducing the Cambrian fleet to 20?
I did hear a rumour that they were going to have it at only 14 and restrict those units to Cambrian only but I don’t see much merit in that.

I could be mistaken, it's been a long day, but I'm sure that's what I was told.

Eventually they may all end up as ETCS units if the WCML conversion goes ahead.

Reported today that CAF Chester had 38 197’s available to cover 43 diagrams with 150’s also covering 5 diagrams and 1 being uncovered. Not a great day.

Yesterday wasn't great for Machynlleth either. Rather short of 158s.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Yesterday wasn't great for Machynlleth either. Rather short of 158s.

There were 3 visible on Canton a couple of days ago.

Back to 197's, has the decision for the Cambrian ones to run up as far as 197041 in anyway connected to the current 158 numbers being up to 158841 or just a coincidence?

 

[craigybagel]

I could be mistaken, it's been a long day, but I'm sure that's what I was told.

Eventually they may all end up as ETCS units if the WCML conversion goes ahead.

All the signs are that TfW want to maintain the ability to run Crewe - Warrington - Manchester. There's been a constant production line of drivers learning/refreshing the route for the last year. I can't see them going to all that effort only to pull it when ETCS comes in, especially when the 197s are relatively easy to convert.

 

[BillStampy]

There were 3 visible on Canton a couple of days ago.

Back to 197's, has the decision for the Cambrian ones to run up as far as 197041 in anyway connected to the current 158 numbers being up to 158841 or just a coincidence?

I saw 4 yesterday, I think.

Quite a few numbers do match up, a few don't such as 003 and a few others as 158818 starts it. But yes most are similar!

 

[Andy Pacer]

I saw 4 yesterday, I think.

Quite a few numbers do match up, a few don't such as 003 and a few others as 158818 starts it. But yes most are similar!

An earlier post suggested 003 will return to the main pack and not be a 'Cambrian' once they start, and there are going to be less Cambrian 197s than current 158s.

 

[BillStampy]

An earlier post suggested 003 will return to the main pack and not be a 'Cambrian' once they start, and there are going to be less Cambrian 197s than current 158s.

That's an odd decision for TfW to make. Wonder why, I just found it as a testing unit but why not have it a part of the Cambrian Fleet?

 

[Lurcheroo]

I could be mistaken, it's been a long day, but I'm sure that's what I was told.

Eventually they may all end up as ETCS units if the WCML conversion goes ahead.


Yesterday wasn't great for Machynlleth either. Rather short of 158s.

Oh Interesting! Well you know what they’re like, changing their minds all the time

Yes they may well do and I don’t think it would be a bad thing in honesty.

8 on stop yesterday and 7 again today, so not a lot better really! Lots of short-forming and over crowding on Birmingham and the Cambrian.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2024 ==

All the signs are that TfW want to maintain the ability to run Crewe - Warrington - Manchester. There's been a constant production line of drivers learning/refreshing the route for the last year. I can't see them going to all that effort only to pull it when ETCS comes in, especially when the 197s are relatively easy to convert.

Maybe we will see 3 cars used on the Cambrian yet then

 

[6Gman]

048 just failed on me at Chester with no power…

I was on it too. Was split off the back of the Llandudno-Manchester Airport to form the 1655 Crewe (the inward 1621 Crewe-Chester was still in Crewe). It made two attempts at departing but the driver - wisely - went no further than the end of the platform to allow us to alight.

It then blocked Platform 4 to the incoming Euston-Holyhead/Chester which in turn had problems splitting.

So, for only the 3rd time ever, I'm putting in for delay repay (61 minutes ).

 

[craigybagel]

An earlier post suggested 003 will return to the main pack and not be a 'Cambrian' once they start, and there are going to be less Cambrian 197s than current 158s.

That's an odd decision for TfW to make. Wonder why, I just found it as a testing unit but why not have it a part of the Cambrian Fleet?

My suspicion is that 003 was only fitted with ERTMS to enable testing on the Cambrian to take place early on. It wouldn't surprise me if the equipment is removed and installed in one of the permanent ERTMS sets. Keeping those units with consecutive unit numbers should reduce the risk of a non fitted unit accidentally ending up on the Cambrian.

It should also be a good demonstration of how easy it is to swap equipment between trains

Maybe we will see 3 cars used on the Cambrian yet then

Anything is possible! Going to be interesting to see how the plans evolve.

 

[BenBracken]

There does seem to be a multiple issues with engine failures on 197s recently, have any root causes been identified?

 

[Krokodil]

All the signs are that TfW want to maintain the ability to run Crewe - Warrington - Manchester. There's been a constant production line of drivers learning/refreshing the route for the last year. I can't see them going to all that effort only to pull it when ETCS comes in, especially when the 197s are relatively easy to convert.

More importantly, TfW run over Acton Grange - Winwick every hour.

 

[craigybagel]

More importantly, TfW run over Acton Grange - Winwick every hour.

Fair point, although with it being a relatively short distance they might have some kind of overlay in for that section? Either way, there's a good chance ERTMS training is not going to be contained to just a select few on the Cambrian for much longer.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Anything is possible! Going to be interesting to see how the plans evolve.

They’d be ideal for some of the summer services in my opinion.

Fair point, although with it being a relatively short distance they might have some kind of overlay in for that section? Either way, there's a good chance ERTMS training is not going to be contained to just a select few on the Cambrian for much longer.

They’ve just employed an ETCS integration manager that started last week. I assume they’ll be sorting 197’s to begin and then it’ll be interesting to see what they do after that! I had heard that Chester might be one of the next depots to get involved but who knows.

 

[childwallblues]

All the signs are that TfW want to maintain the ability to run Crewe - Warrington - Manchester. There's been a constant production line of drivers learning/refreshing the route for the last year. I can't see them going to all that effort only to pull it when ETCS comes in, especially when the 197s are relatively easy to convert.

Going to get very crowded on Chat Moss as LNWR want to run a Birmingham to Manchester Victoria and Northerns 30 minute from Liverpool service is likely to be re-instated now that the 17 ex WMR Class 323s are with Northern.

 

[Jez]

Reported today that CAF Chester had 38 197’s available to cover 43 diagrams with 150’s also covering 5 diagrams and 1 being uncovered. Not a great day.

How many are booked for routine maintenance at any time. I'd guess about 6 out of a fleet of 51 units. So there should still be a couple spare with 43 diagrams. Not good if so many need substitutions especially with the Sprinter fleet quite stretched now too.

Hopefully a better week this week !

 

[craigybagel]

Going to get very crowded on Chat Moss as LNWR want to run a Birmingham to Manchester Victoria and Northerns 30 minute from Liverpool service is likely to be re-instated now that the 17 ex WMR Class 323s are with Northern.

I don't think TfW have any plans to increase the number of services that run via Chat Moss - they're merely ensuring that sufficient Crewe drivers are trained on it to make it a reliable diversion route if needed.

 

[Krokodil]

Going to get very crowded on Chat Moss as LNWR want to run a Birmingham to Manchester Victoria and Northerns 30 minute from Liverpool service is likely to be re-instated now that the 17 ex WMR Class 323s are with Northern.

Are TPE ever going to reinstate their half-hourly frequency?

 

[Lurcheroo]

How many are booked for routine maintenance at any time. I'd guess about 6 out of a fleet of 51 units. So there should still be a couple spare with 43 diagrams. Not good if so many need substitutions especially with the Sprinter fleet quite stretched now too.

Hopefully a better week this week !

I honestly couldn’t say. The numbers I have were from a specific report so my knowledge was just what that said.
It’s certainly not great though.

 

[childwallblues]

Are TPE ever going to reinstate their half-hourly frequency?

Everything changes in December I have been informed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Fair enough, capacity is probably higher priority than comfort in this situation, even if it's a 153.

To be fair I think a 153 may be more comfortable; certainly rides better than a 197!

It's a tricky one that. The 153s have much more-comfortable seats than the modern rock-hard things found in new trains, but the Cavity (197) has aircon and better legroom (the latter is still not a patch on a 175 though).

Except 003 which is currently an ETCS test unit but will eventually join the main fleet, rather than the Cambrian fleet.

Thanks for the correction. I thought the ETCS fleet was remaining as 21 units but must be only 20 if that one is not staying as ETCS.

If I recall correctly, at the time of the initial announcement it was thought that all 77 class 197s would have ETCS, but ever since an official total was announced TfW have always stated that 21 units would be ETCS fitted I think. Unless the plan has changed as a result of TfW's new intention to cut the first and last trains on the Cambrian Coast (although that doesn't seem to have any impact on the Peak Vehicle Requirement on the Cambrian ETCS network) I would be very surprised if they are actually planning to reduce the number of ETCS-fitted class 197s from 20 to 21. If 197003 does have its ETCS equipment removed, I think it is far more likely that it would be installed into 197021 or 197042 instead (making a contiguously-numbered pool of 21 ETCS-fitted units), perhaps as a proof-of-concept to see how easy it is to convert 197s to ETCS, as craigybagel has suggested:

My suspicion is that 003 was only fitted with ERTMS to enable testing on the Cambrian to take place early on. It wouldn't surprise me if the equipment is removed and installed in one of the permanent ERTMS sets. Keeping those units with consecutive unit numbers should reduce the risk of a non fitted unit accidentally ending up on the Cambrian.

It should also be a good demonstration of how easy it is to swap equipment between trains

Maybe we will see 3 cars used on the Cambrian yet then

there's a good chance ERTMS training is not going to be contained to just a select few on the Cambrian for much longer.

Have I missed something about the roll-out of ETCS on another route served by TfW? As far as I was aware, the only planned ETCS deployments making any headway were the tunnels into Heathrow (now live if I recall correctly) and the East Coast Digital Programme (a short stretch used only by Great Northern having already gone live with sections further north to follow but as an overlay with lineside signals remaining in place). Regarding the Cambrian, my understanding is that Machynlleth depot cannot accomodate 3-car units and only Machynlleth and Pwllheli drivers now sign the Cambrian. Also, I recently wrote to James Price at TfW; one of my points being a suggestion that Shrewsbury drivers should be trainned to work to Machynlleth or Aberystwyth, rather than cutting the first morning Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth working to start from Welshpool (to avoid taxing a driver to Shrewsbury) as TfW are planning to do from December. His response to this claimed that it "would be an operational challenge for those drivers to be competent on more than one system." Presumably Machynlleth drivers are competent on conventional signalling (as well as ETCS) and similarly those drivers working the Great Northern and Heathrow ETCS projects mentioned above must also be competent on both systems - or is the Cambrian the only route which is ETCS without lineside signals?