Guard unhappy with my Off Peak ticket

[Krokodil]

On the basis of that argument, your logic means that you could equally be arguing for off-peak tickets to go because they cause so much confusion.

Well yes, but do it the Scotrail way, not the LNER way.

 

[Skie]

Have had similar fun on Merseyrail when travelling to Lime Street for the off peak 09:43 Avanti.

Definitely requires the use of a peak Merseyrail service, but with an off-peak ticket. Barriers won’t let you out at Liverpool Central and only the lax attitude of staff (orange coloured card shape = okay) means I’ve never had too much bother.

 

[Watershed]

Have had similar fun on Merseyrail when travelling to Lime Street for the off peak 09:43 Avanti.

Definitely requires the use of a peak Merseyrail service, but with an off-peak ticket. Barriers won’t let you out at Liverpool Central and only the lax attitude of staff (orange coloured card shape = okay) means I’ve never had too much bother.

There is no such thing as a blanket "peak" or "off-peak" service; the trains you can take with an Off-Peak ticket depend entirely on the ticket held.

Some Off-Peak tickets have no time restrictions at all, others have significant time restrictions, most are somewhere in between those two extremes.

 

[Haywain]

There is no such thing as a blanket "peak" or "off-peak" service; the trains you can take with an Off-Peak ticket depend entirely on the ticket held.

Some Off-Peak tickets have no time restrictions at all, others have significant time restrictions, most are somewhere in between those two extremes.

And some have more severe restrictions for the connecting service than for the main service.

 

[Kite159]

Have had similar fun on Merseyrail when travelling to Lime Street for the off peak 09:43 Avanti.

Definitely requires the use of a peak Merseyrail service, but with an off-peak ticket. Barriers won’t let you out at Liverpool Central and only the lax attitude of staff (orange coloured card shape = okay) means I’ve never had too much bother.

In that case it might be easier changing at Moorfields for a Wirral line train and using the lift exit at Lime Street. Might be longer but unless merseyrail are having a revenue block an easier journey, especially if you run into a poorly trained RPI.

 

[redreni]

In that case it might be easier changing at Moorfields for a Wirral line train and using the lift exit at Lime Street. Might be longer but unless merseyrail are having a revenue block an easier journey, especially if you run into a poorly trained RPI.

It's a sorry state of affairs when passengers with valid tickets will sometimes prefer to avoid RPIs where possible, even going slightly out of their way to avoid them, but that would appear to be where we are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a sorry state of affairs when passengers with valid tickets will sometimes prefer to avoid RPIs where possible, even going slightly out of their way to avoid them, but that would appear to be where we are.

Certainly I don't recall ever having used the fare-dodger's lift at Lime St to actually fare dodge (given that I don't engage in that practice) but I absolutely have used it to avoid awkward RPIs such as those who may object to the use of a Liverpool Stations ticket to continue on Merseyrail, as is valid to do so provided it isn't TOC routed.

Always surprised me that it hasn't been gated, to be honest. Though my experience of the gross incompetence of at least some Merseyrail RPIs (such as the one who had no idea what a Saveaway was) makes me glad it isn't.

 

[Goldfish62]

The SWR app shows the off peak return to be valid on the OP's train.

So no debate. OP correct. Guard wrong.

 

[Haywain]

The SWR app shows the off peak return to be valid on the OP's train.

So no debate. OP correct. Guard wrong.

The debate has not disputed that a ticket purchased in conjunction with an itinerary is entirely valid. That doesn't alter the fact that the validity is highly debatable for someone travelling other than with an itinerary.

 

[island]

The debate has not disputed that a ticket purchased in conjunction with an itinerary is entirely valid. That doesn't alter the fact that the validity is highly debatable for someone travelling other than with an itinerary.

Agreed. In fact, I would go as far as saying the ticket is clearly not valid for the train used but for the purchase in conjunction with that itinerary.

 

[infobleep]

If the guard had taken details of the ticket and forwarded it onto the revenue team at SWR would they investigate it further as a matter of course and fix the issue whichever way they think it needs to be fixed? If they don't price it, would they get in contact with GWR to look into thr matter?

 

[MrJeeves]

If the guard had taken details of the ticket and forwarded it onto the revenue team at SWR would they investigate it further as a matter of course and fix the issue whichever way they think it needs to be fixed?

Yes, very possible.

If they don't price it, would they get in contact with GWR to look into thr matter?

Yes, also very possible.

 

[Kite159]

If the guard had taken details of the ticket and forwarded it onto the revenue team at SWR would they investigate it further as a matter of course and fix the issue whichever way they think it needs to be fixed? If they don't price it, would they get in contact with GWR to look into thr matter?

So it might be worth keeping an eye on the restriction code in case the wording of it gets changed to be more "simple" for passengers to understand

 

[Haywain]

So it might be worth keeping an eye on the restriction code in case the wording of it gets changed to be more "simple" for passengers to understand

And to be simpler for staff to understand.

 

[Starmill]

The debate has not disputed that a ticket purchased in conjunction with an itinerary is entirely valid. That doesn't alter the fact that the validity is highly debatable for someone travelling other than with an itinerary.

Of course, if you're more interested in the logic and the principle than this case - there's a logical question here with this restriction code.

Let's say that the customer buys the ticket from Romsey to Swindon, using a TVM that doesn't supply any itinerary at all, just the restrictions as copied from NRE.

Is that ticket valid for that service?

Maybe the distinction lies in the use of the word "from the following stations" instead of "the following stations" in the restriction code. But usually I'd say that such a minor thing can't change the meaning, clearly here though maybe it can...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2024 ==

Agreed. In fact, I would go as far as saying the ticket is clearly not valid for the train used but for the purchase in conjunction with that itinerary.

This brings me to another question. If one part of the restrictions says "off peak tickets are valid for connections..." and another says "not valid for trains timed to depart from..." which takes precedence if both apply?

My guess is that the people who wrote this restriction code never even had it enter their heads there could be a situation where both things apply simultaneously.

 

[Haywain]

Is that ticket valid for that service?

Yes. Or, alternatively, no. Or...

 

[island]

This brings me to another question. If one part of the restrictions says "off peak tickets are valid for connections..." and another says "not valid for trains timed to depart from..." which takes precedence if both apply?

My guess is that the people who wrote this restriction code never even had it enter their heads there could be a situation where both things apply simultaneously.

That is a good question, point, and, I wager, guess.

Legal principles that might apply include “the specific overrides the general”, and legislation that might apply includes section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (terms admitting multiple meanings).

Having considered that and the specific wording of restriction Q8, I am not as sure as I previously was that this ticket usage is invalid without an itinerary.

 

[yorkie]

Ticket was Chandlers Ford - Swindon via Melksham, return. I bought via Uber App, putting in 0755 from CFR. £30.50, but I used a Senior Railcard, so £20.15.

The guard on Chandlers Ford-Romsey leg was quite animated when he inspected my ticket, acting like he'd won the lottery. 'This is an Off Peak ticket and it's not valid...' He offered me to buy a full fare ticket to Romsey but I stood my ground, showed him the 'i' bit of the e-ticket which showed that I'd booked choosing the 0755 so it's not my fault that my ticket, clearly labelled 'Off Peak' wasn't valid.

Thankfully, the journey is only 8 mins and we arrived at Romsey before he could extract ££ from me or fine me.

I went to the ticket office at Romsey to ask what I'd done wrong, but after a few minutes I was told 'no idea, it's all so complex these days' and not to worry as my next train 0825 to Westbury was definitely off-peak.

Can anyone enlighten me? National Rail journey planner comes up with the same fare, so I don't get what the issue is. I assume that as I put my Senior Railcard in the booking that it can't be anything to do with that (times allowed?), or is it?

thanks!

My advice would be to obtain an itinerary (if practicable, and you didn't already), which could be shown if anyone inspecting your ticket queries it. Then there is no need to get into any debate about validity; if you are following an itinerary issued in conjunction with your ticket, then your ticket is automatically valid (as per contract and consumer law).

If a rogue ticket inspector did charge you, a good retailer would back you up. I don't know if Uber would do that (has anyone tried it?), but we certainly would if you bought it through our site. I am aware of numerous instances of people being incorrectly charged when following a valid itinerary when booking through us, and a lot of effort goes into making sure that the train company at fault reimburses/compensates the customer. I've been aware of instances where people have been given complimentary travel vouchers in addition to a refund of the fare charged.

If this sort of thing happens to you when following an itinerary purchased on our site, and you have any concerns, feel free to contact me directly.

Edit: although the right to travel in accordance with the itinerary doesn't need to be documented by the rail industry, as this is simply a matter of adhering to contract and consumer laws; the NRE website does state the following:

When you book your journey online, any ticket offered at that time in connection with the journey planner results will be accepted as a permitted route...

(although this is under a heading relating to the route you may take, clearly same principle applies regarding time restrictions)
There are numerous previous threads relating to the matter of accepting tickets via the booked itinerary; the following thread is quite recent and contains some good answers by @Watershed:

Taking a Sold Journey Itinerary 'as Gospel'

Please correct me if I am wrong - I have read many threads which contain the idea that if you book tickets with a retailer and a specific itinerary is provided (this can be any ticket type, not just advance) and you stick strictly to that journey itinerary, then (in theory) your itinerary is...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[martin2345uk]

What exactly is meant by an itinerary? I see the term a lot on here but don’t actually know what it specifically refers to…

 

[signed]

What exactly is meant by an itinerary?

Something that the retailer gives you with your ticket that indicates exactly what you searched (train number, times etc...) and got tickets for

Example in this post from the LNER app : https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...cket-at-liverpool-street.271588/#post-6873332

 

[martin2345uk]

So for example just screenshots from the Trainline app would count as one, if they showed the trains to be taken etc?

 

[signed]

Usually it would also be included in your confirmation email, or even a itinerary ticket from a journey planning TVM.

The main point is that it's anything that shows what the retailer promised you is valid. Even if the ticket is invalid from a NRCoT or Fare rule perspective, as long as you can show that the retailer sold you that ticket, you are free to use that ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==

The full sourced thread about the journey itinerary is here : https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/taking-a-sold-journey-itinerary-as-gospel.262057/

 

[redreni]

Worth clarifying that with flexible tickets (e.g. off-peak single or return tickets), although you're automatically valid if you follow an itinerary that was given to you when you bought the ticket, that doesn't of course mean that you have to follow that itinerary. You can take different trains if you comply with the restrictions that apply to your ticket.

It simply means if you do follow that itinerary then there really ought not to be any argument about validity. You are doing what you said you wanted to do when you bought the ticket and the ticket was sold to you on the basis that you could do that.

 

[Starmill]

So for example just screenshots from the Trainline app would count as one, if they showed the trains to be taken etc?

Yup. It's what you get after you pay, when it shows you specific services in your basket.

I'd say the easiest way to show it is probably in your email inbox but the booking on the app is also totally fine.