Does a Good Attitude Result in a Good Outcome?

[Bertie the bus]

Clearly, if you are caught without a ticket and are aggressive or abusive you are not going to endear yourself to the person dealing with you but is the opposite true?

I encountered an unexpected (by me) situation last week. There was a ticket check and a woman asked to buy a ticket. The response was ‘Sorry we are revenue protection, not the guard, so we can’t sell you a ticket’. They asked for name, address, DoB and whether she had come to their attention before. The lady was apologetic, polite and compliant throughout.

Surprisingly, after getting her details he then sold her a ticket and printed something off which he advised her to read and take note of.

So the question is, could they have dealt with her leniently because she was fully compliant and honest, or might they have taken pity on her because she said she was in temporary accommodation – the address she gave was a budget hotel – or is it common to not issue PFs for other reasons? The TOC was Northern and the station she boarded at does have ticket issuing facilities.

 

[ikcdab]

Isn't this true in every walk of life? Right from the very worst crimes.... If you plead guilty and you are compliant you can get a lighter sentence than if you plead not guilty and you argue.
In my experience, if you want something from anyone, a respectful, friendly, understanding approach usually has a much better outcome. I'm not saying you should be a flippy-floppy thing: you need to stand up from yourself, but you can do this in such a way that improves your chances of a better outcome.
The lady you saw had clearly learnt that lesson.

 

[Jim]

The attitude test, like it or loathe it, is a thing I find in some revenue grades in some companies.

If someone paid when challenged and was aggressive, I think personally it is fair to deal with them differently to a more honest, kind tickeltess traveller (if there is such a thing!).

Sometimes education is better than punishment!

 

[MrJeeves]

In my experience, the attitude test extends beyond simply whether someone is polite or not. Someone can be polite and kind while also pretending to not really know what they're up to!

I've seen very polite people get the rulebook thrown at them, while someone more "inquisitive" asking questions about their tickets or what they can do next time get treated more leniently.

 

[tskir]

Quite. My wife and I were travelling from an airport once and we forgot to buy the full tickets. Basically, we nearly always travel from our station A directly to the airport; but this time we were staying with friends the night before departure, who live on station B between us and the airport. So we had an open return ticket from B to the airport, and on return completely forgot about this and were approached on the B → A leg for which we didn't have a ticket. Furthermore both A and B are ungated stations, so I appreciate from the RPI point of view this looks a lot like short ticketing.

Both my wife and I were upfront and apologetic about this from the start, I offered to pay a Penalty Fare before it was even suggested, and I think the RPI saw we were both clearly upset about this turn of events. So at his discretion he took only one Penalty Fare from us on the spot instead of two, and didn't take our details. So positive discretion definitely does happen.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

I’d suggest being pleasant will help if there’s the benefit of the doubt to be had:

I recently travelled from Harrogate to Leeds on a Friday. I’d booked my ticket online shortly before travelling using our company travel provider, but had inadvertently booked it for the following day…

I arrived at Harrogate and parked, only to see a train which I wasn’t expecting for 15 minutes arrive - turned out it was the previous train which had been delayed. My ticket didn’t work at the barrier, but as the train was there, the staff let me in without any questions.

The guard on the train scanned it, but said nothing, and when I arrived at the barriers at Leeds, it again didn’t work. I asked staff there, again showing them the ticket, and they let me through.

On the way back to Harrogate, it failed to work at Leeds, staff checked the ticket and allowed me in, again the guard scanned it and said nothing, but back at Harrogate when I tried to scan out and they examined the ticket, they spotted the reason it hadn’t worked being that it was for the next day… cue much red-faced embarrassment on my part. The staff at Harrogate said they wouldn’t let me out as I didn’t have a valid ticket, and I’d have to buy a new one. I could have picked a fight about the fact that everyone else had allowed me to travel, effectively giving permission to travel, or I could have pointed out that my train was so delayed that if I bought a ticket, I’d be getting most of it back in delay repay, but I instead commended them for spotting something nobody else had, apologised for my mistake and set off ordering a new ticket. One of the staff was watching over my shoulder and before I completed the order said “Don’t worry, mistakes happen, but learn your lesson and check the date in future”, then let me go.

I suspect had I been more pushy, the result may have been different…

PS I’m fairly used to tickets not being accepted at barriers to the point where I now go to the ones nearest staff to begin with - lots of my journeys will take me across London with CCST, and I think I’ve only had one ticket open the barriers in the last 12 months, so I’ve been conditioned into showing the ticket and being allowed through!

 

[electrostar357]

I had an incident once when my wife was learning to drive a few years back. I took her to a very quiet road to do some reversing and turning practice during a period of gale force winds. We had magnetic L-plates on and during the drive home (she was driving) a traffic police vehicle passed us and I noticed they turned around, followed us and then flashed us (no blues) so we pulled over. I got out and spoke with the officers who very politely pointed out that the rear L-plate was missing, it had blown off at some point. With the only spare L having been used already, there ended her drive home. A quick look at my licence, a joke about the situation and all was well provided I drove the rest of the way home and that was the end of the matter. On the flip side we both could have ended up with points on our licences.

 

[John R]

On one occasion I screwed up in buying an advance ticket for a journey beyond the validity of my season ticket. (I was 30 mins out.) I had to catch that train as the rest of my family was on it.

So before we got to my season ticket end point I sought out the TM, explained the situation and asked directly to buy a new ticket. He immediately told me to take my seat and not to worry. He’d accept the ticket when passing through.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I find it interesting that 90% of people coming on here for advice after being stopped by a guard/RPO etc, always say how aggressive/rude the guard/RPO was. From experience I've never seen that. Most guards/RPO officers I've seen have been polite, perhaps firm but never aggressive or rude. So it does make me wonder if some people's attitude does result in a report?

 

[MrJeeves]

On one occasion I screwed up in buying an advance ticket for a journey beyond the validity of my season ticket. (I was 30 mins out.) I had to catch that train as the rest of my family was on it.

So before we got to my season ticket end point I sought out the TM, explained the situation and asked directly to buy a new ticket. He immediately told me to take my seat and not to worry. He’d accept the ticket when passing through.

When you seek out the staff at the instance you realise you've made an error, it is definitely a better indicator of lack of intent compared to just sitting around and waiting.

 

[SteveHFC]

When you seek out the staff at the instance you realise you've made an error, it is definitely a better indicator of lack of intent compared to just sitting around and waiting.

Agree on this. A number of years ago I was travelling from Stevenage to York on a company bought ticket. Ticket didn't work at the barriers at Stevenage, but the attendant let me though. It was only when I got on the train and discovered someone sitting in what I thought was my seat that I spotted the date of the ticket was the next day and I'd made an error when ordering the ticket.

I immediately went to look for the train manager and explained what had happened, and he allowed me to travel without any issue. He even told me the best carriage on the train to find unreserved seats. I did buy a new ticket for the journey back later that day.

I suspect had I tried to get away with it, and it was spotted when he did the ticket checks - the outcome would have been different.

 

[SWT_USER]

Depending on the circumstances, being nice = an easy penalty fare/ (unlawful) prosecution/ out of court settlement for the TOC, particularly at gatelines. It's low hanging fruit. The aggressive types who barge through barriers or just walk away will get away with it.

It's different actually on the train where there police could potentially be called if a passenger becomes violent, but from reading posts from guards on here they aren't going to delay a train for ticketing matters so anyone arguing or uncooperative enough will get away with it.

 

[johnny_t]

This is only anecdotal, but I'm sure that I've seen more guards on trains go for the easy targets of the lone girl or gentle old couple, whilst ignoring the group of antisocial teenagers, so picking on the easy targets. A bit like the police sending you a ticket for doing 34 in a 30 from their camera van, but leaving the country roads to be overrun by weaving bikers doing 100+ all weekend.

A good attitude can help, but so can not being easy pickings. Giving fines does help pay the wages, at the end of the day...

 

[PHWO]

Definitely agree with the point of seeking out staff as soon as you're able to. Was once on the way home to Derby from Birmingham New Street (back in Central Trains days) got on a 158 convinced it was for Nottingham (get off at Derby). Nerves were frayed when we took the Whitacre Junction line at Water Orton and absolutely shredded when we took the Nuneaton line at Whitacre Junction - yep you guessed it, we were on a Leicester train.... The guard turned up who was clearly in a good mood announcing "good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, the ticket man is here" and upon explaining what we'd done, told us to and I quote, "change at Leicester and have a siesta". We then spoke to the Midland Mainline folks at Leicester who were equally as amiable and we caught the next train back up to Derby, the only cost being time.

 

[AlterEgo]

Having people skills and being able to deal with conflict as a passenger will help you get the best outcome. Of course, this one end of the horseshoe. The other end covers obstroperous, obnoxious people who do not comply, and usually (but not always) escape consequence.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not ticketing per se - but as a manager who were encouraged to take say 40 letter complaints home , read them and recommended some action for detailed follow up by the relevant clerical officers. (this was in the mid 1990s)

Some of the letters were very rude, insulting etc - so they got a very brief reply - more measured ones got a much better reply , often going into detailed responses - and a much more sympathetic reply. So yes - ......

A good experience to get a view from the customer.

 

[AM9]

I got let off doing 45 in a 30 because i was super nice to the Policeman who stopped me. That was a right result! We had a good chat (not about speeding) and he just gave me a producer.

That policeman clearly was not doing his job. Maybe drivers caught doing 30-40mph (possibly showing up to 46 on a speedometer) could be excused as that might be due to lack of attention. Actually clocked at 45mph and probably displaying a speed of 45 to over 51 is not an unintended act.

 

[Ducatist4]

I never suggested it was unintended - there is no excuse for speeding. But it was a wake up call and i never did it again so he actually did his job very well. He wasn't there to collect revenue.

 

[Gloster]

A lot of people who complain about staff (RPIs, barrier staff, etc) are trying to lessen and justify their attempt to defraud the railway or their slipshod carelessness. Or they may really regard the staff as being rude because they won’t shut up and go away, but continue to insist on seeing their tickets and won’t accept the feeble excuses that the traveller comes up with. Of course, some staff are belligerent and pick on the easy targets, but that doesn’t justify the passengers‘ attitude.

A good attitude if you are stopped seems (to me) to be normal politeness: the staff have a job to do and it is in your interest that they do their best to keep fraudulent travel down. Unfortunately, it seems that many who travel fraudulently don’t do politeness. It is also common sense: if you make a minor error you are more likely to be let off if you get some goodwill from the staff by being polite and cooperative with them than if you are abusive and unhelpful; but many of those don’t do common sense either.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Definitely agree with the point of seeking out staff as soon as you're able to. Was once on the way home to Derby from Birmingham New Street (back in Central Trains days) got on a 158 convinced it was for Nottingham (get off at Derby). Nerves were frayed when we took the Whitacre Junction line at Water Orton and absolutely shredded when we took the Nuneaton line at Whitacre Junction - yep you guessed it, we were on a Leicester train.... The guard turned up who was clearly in a good mood announcing "good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, the ticket man is here" and upon explaining what we'd done, told us to and I quote, "change at Leicester and have a siesta". We then spoke to the Midland Mainline folks at Leicester who were equally as amiable and we caught the next train back up to Derby, the only cost being time.

In the days of Virgin West Coast, a friend of mine who is an incredibly talented musician, but takes very little notice of the world beyond his trombone, was helping his friend into a train. It promptly set off with him trapped in it, so he went and explained his predicament to the guard.

Jammy bugger ended up with a round trip to Lancaster, returning in first class with copious coffee and sandwiches, having paid not a penny!

 

[AM9]

I never suggested it was unintended - there is no excuse for speeding. But it was a wake up call and i never did it again so he actually did his job very well. He wasn't there to collect revenue.

So had you been prosecuted for such a blatant excess, would you have carried on driving in the same way afterwards?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Surprisingly, after getting her details he then sold her a ticket and printed something off which he advised her to read and take note of.

I wonder what he sold her? That sounds very much like a Penalty Fare was indeed issued.

I'm sure that I've seen more guards on trains go for the easy targets of the lone girl or gentle old couple, whilst ignoring the group of antisocial teenagers, so picking on the easy targets.

That is sadly very much my experience, and it's not a recent thing. It used to be something I saw a little too often when I used to commute on London Midland: one example that sticks in my mind is the RPIs being all over the polite people travelling on an off-peak ticket in the evening peak like a rash, but one bloke simply stood there and completely blanked the RPI for the five minutes or so until the train arrived at Watford. He wasn't aggressive or violent, he simply pretended they weren't there. They were basically powerless to get him to engage and once the doors opened off he went, completely consequence-free. I genuinely do understand why this is the case but, unless the police are there on a revenue block, the lesson is that it pays to not engage.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder what he sold her? That sounds very much like a Penalty Fare was indeed issued.

Some RPIs can sell a ticket and print off a specific Penalty Fare Warning, which is just that - a ticket with a written warning about how they would normally PF you so watch out. I've actually had one of these in the old SWT days.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Some RPIs can sell a ticket and print off a specific Penalty Fare Warning, which is just that - a ticket with a written warning about how they would normally PF you so watch out.

I thought they'd gone the way of the dodo, but hopefully this is a case where it happened.

 

[Ducatist4]

So had you been prosecuted for such a blatant excess, would you have carried on driving in the same way afterwards?

No, so it had exactly the same end result as not prosecuting me. But the point of this thread was the attitude test - If i'd gone back at him all guns blazing then I'd have three points and a fine and I'd have slowed down, as it turned out I didn't get points and a fine and i still slowed down - which is the Polices task, not to issues points or fines but to get people to slow down by whatever means So he did his job 100%.

 

[greyman42]

I encountered an unexpected (by me) situation last week. There was a ticket check and a woman asked to buy a ticket. The response was ‘Sorry we are revenue protection, not the guard, so we can’t sell you a ticket’. They asked for name, address, DoB and whether she had come to their attention before. The lady was apologetic, polite and compliant throughout.

Surprisingly, after getting her details he then sold her a ticket and printed something off which he advised her to read and take note of.

Why say that they can't sell you a ticket and then sell you one?
I was sold a ticket by a RPI only two weeks ago.

 

[jumble]

Why say that they can't sell you a ticket and then sell you one?
I was sold a ticket by a RPI only two weeks ago.

Maybe it actually means I won't offer to sell you a ticket until I have checked you out to see if you are known to us.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In answer to the original question I'd probably say that a bad attitude will almost certainly result in a bad outcome (the classic "failure of the attitude test", whereas a good attitude may or may not result in a good outcome depending on other factors.

 

[Segedunum]

I've experienced it from both sides of the coin. I almost ended up in a heated argument with a TfW RPI a few weeks ago when he entered a (not yet enforced) Standard Plus section, told everyone they were on the wrong tickets and were avoiding the First Class fare. He did the same to me, I politely said this wasn't right and that Standard Plus isn't First Class (nor was the guard selling upgrades). I straight away had the RPI badge shoved in my face, was told he was just doing his job and was going to get a manager to 'sort it' (he did not, nor did he ever admit to being wrong). An unnecessary escalation.

The guard was less than impressed when I told her she had an RPI running riot accusing people of misdeeds on her train

For me, as a former RPI, as @Bletchleyite says, passing the attitude test wasn't necessarily a guarantee of getting the benefit of the doubt, but it was a good way of ensuring that you're on your way as quickly as possible (no matter the outcome) and that it doesn't escalate into something it doesn't need to.

That said - I would rather educate (and encourage someone to use the network) than pick them up on something minor and put them off ever bothering again.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Believe it or not, I've actually got praise for Northern...

My wife and I recently traveled from Darlington to Shildon (and back) which I had pre-booked/paid including connecting travel with Avanti. I had printed off all the tickets for our journey and the guard on the return Northern leg of our journey told us that the Shildon-Darlington tickets had the wrong date; i.e. the date of purchase, rather than the date of travel. The outward portion had the correct date along with the Avanti tickets; all of which we showed to the guard. He clearly had the kindness and goodwill to understand that we weren't purposely evading our fare and he passed a pleasant comment and moved on down the train.