Guard has drawn all over my ticket

[jacksonbang]

I travelled on the return portion of a Esher to Rye ticket this morning. I got checked on the Clapham Junction to Hastings leg - on the second check the guard took my ticket and punched it with a train-shaped hole, additionally crossed out the return date expiry of August 16th and then filled the ticket with an large criss-cross. When I got to Hastings I decided to get the bus due to the timings. It occured to me that, although I have a Hastings-Rye part of my ticket still unused, my ticket has basically been defaced beyond use. Techincally can I still use this ticket later in the month?

 

[JonathanH]

The ridiculous thing about crossing out the date and not writing anything about when it was checked is that it doesn't give any information to the next inspector about when and where it was checked.

Neatly writing the date and location of the ticket check is a much more effective mark to prevent invalid further use (and allow valid further use).

 

[jacksonbang]

Never seen it before - I've been hole-punched, date written - but not a massive cross and obscuring of the expiration date (it was green marker so you can still just see the date)

 

[gray1404]

I travelled on the return portion of a Esher to Rye ticket this morning. I got checked on the Clapham Junction to Hastings leg - on the second check the guard took my ticket and punched it with a train-shaped hole, additionally crossed out the return date expiry of August 16th and then filled the ticket with an large criss-cross. When I got to Hastings I decided to get the bus due to the timings. It occured to me that, although I have a Hastings-Rye part of my ticket still unused, my ticket has basically been defaced beyond use. Techincally can I still use this ticket later in the month?

It doesn't after the validity remaining however I totally understand that you may fear it will lead to questioning. It does seem a bit over the job. Out of interest would you be able to post a copy of the ticket?

 

[TheTallOne]

Assuming break of journey was allowed on that particular return ticket (guess fairly likely), then I’d suggest contacting customer services.

Tell them what has been done and that you are concerned about being able to continue your journey hassle free.

If you did get stopped you could possibly refer to that discussion with customer services, plus perhaps if it isn’t the right way to mark the ticket they can learn from the error/complaint!

 

[transportphoto]

If you did get stopped you could possibly refer to that discussion with customer services, plus perhaps if it isn’t the right way to mark the ticket they can learn from the error/complaint!

There isn’t a right or wrong way to mark a ticket. That being said, I can see why the OP is concerned.

 

[jacksonbang]

It just got me thinking - it's all very well saying to the guard that I'm only going as far as "X" today but I didn't know that at the time - and, in any event even if he did mark it, I would not think twice about breaking my journey and continuing another day with said mark (because they don't ever seem to mean anything) but it was as if the ticket had been fully cancelled.

 

[TheTallOne]

There isn’t a right or wrong way to mark a ticket. That being said, I can see why the OP is concerned.

Some might argue that if there was a right way to mark the ticket it would make people less anxious.

Some autistic people can be quite worried about things like this for example.

 

[redreni]

It just got me thinking - it's all very well saying to the guard that I'm only going as far as "X" today but I didn't know that at the time - and, in any event even if he did mark it, I would not think twice about breaking my journey and continuing another day with said mark (because they don't ever seem to mean anything) but it was as if the ticket had been fully cancelled.

It's normally been my experience that if I'm on a train that doesn't serve the destination station on the ticket (meaning the guard knows I'll have to change), they confirm with me which station I'm going to on this particular train and then mark the ticket accordingly.

The behaviour you've described seems very odd, as you were always going to have to change in order to get to Rye. It doesn't matter if you were going to continue your journey straight away or in a fortnight's time - your ticket might have been checked by somebody else at Hastings or Rye or at some point between the two, and they would obviously want to see the expiry date. And if there were any holes or marks on the ticket, then presumably they'd ideally want to satisfy themselves that those were made at an earlier point on your route and so do not indicate that you're trying to re-use the ticket. So it would have helped if the markings were legible and didn't obscure anything printed on the ticket.

I'm still not looking forward to being compelled to use e-tickets or bogroll tickets for this sort of journey, particularly if I wish to break my journey at a station that doesn't have ticket barriers.

I fear the act of the guard scanning the ticket before the break of journey will be interpreted by the machines (and even some of the people) that scan the ticket subsequently, when I come to use the remaining validity (particularly if it's on a different day), as tantamount to the guard having drawn all over it and deleted the expiry date as you've described. At best.

At worst I worry it could be treated as tantamount to the guard having ripped the ticket in half.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I find it helps some to understand that it's not really YOUR ticket, and what a ticket actually is - first they belong to the railway at all times and ultimately they can do what they want to them (nothing for you to worry about).

Second, it's ultimately just evidence that you've entered into a contract , normally on payment of a particular fare - anything written on it doesn't change that situation.

The worst case in these sorts of scenarios would be that you end up with a complaint to a TOC requesting reimbursement of an additional fare, if one has been charged incorrectly - it's really not something people need to fret about, as often a simple explanation (if indeed, one is even necessary) resolves the matter instantly.

Your experience in these sorts of instances can generally be affected by your attitude - most rail staff can spot the repeat abusers of open tickets a mile off, compared to the occasional honest customer who simply explains they broke their journey and who doesn't have any issues at all.

Paper tickets with barcodes (bog roll style) are absolutely ideal if you worry about this sort of thing - if you make a point of scanning in and out at your various points along the journey, staff can see where you have (or haven't!) been.

 

[AlterEgo]

I find it helps some to understand that it's not really YOUR ticket, and what a ticket actually is - first they belong to the railway at all times

That's no longer the case, since the National Rail Conditions of Carriage became the National Rail Conditions of Travel. This clause was removed.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

That's no longer the case, since the National Rail Conditions of Carriage became the National Rail Conditions of Travel. This clause was removed.

The clause was removed because it wasn't necessary to explicitly define that- it doesn't change the underlying position.

 

[AlterEgo]

The clause was removed because it wasn't necessary to explicitly define that- it doesn't change the underlying position.

Why was it in there in the first place, then? Why is anything in there?

 

[redreni]

Paper tickets with barcodes (bog roll style) are absolutely ideal if you worry about this sort of thing - if you make a point of scanning in and out at your various points along the journey, staff can see where you have (or haven't!) been.

Sound advice, though only helpful if the intermediate station has barcode scanners. I use e-tickets sometimes on the Southeastern network, where barcode scanners seem to exist only at gated stations, not at ungated stations.

In fairness, I'm sure this fact would be taken into account if a passenger said they'd broken their journey at such a station. Hopefully not by somebody who has already prejudged the situation because they believe they can spot things a mile off.

 

[zero]

I had a GWR guard almost deface a rover on the last afternoon of travel. You could still see that it was a rover though and it wasn't checked the rest of that evening anyway

 

[jacksonbang]

Your experience in these sorts of instances can generally be affected by your attitude - most rail staff can spot the repeat abusers of open tickets a mile off, compared to the occasional honest customer who simply explains they broke their journey and who doesn't have any issues at all.

It's this attitude that there is only the "occasional honest customer" and we can be somehow prejudged by Southeastern.How is this repeat abuse spotted ?

 

[pelli]

Esteemed forum member AdamWW has previously reported similar experiences in October 2022, March 2023 and (tangentially related) June 2023:

Why did the guard cross out the "until" date on my off-peak return and put in today's date?

I've just had the return half of a (super) off-peak return checked and the guard used a biro to cross out the "until" date and write in today's date. Anyone know why they would do that? The restriction code is YV which doesn't seem to have any break of journey restrictions so surely I can get...

www.railforums.co.uk

Am I going mad? (What does crossing out the "until" date on a ticket mean?)

I posted some time ago about having a GWR guard cross out the "until" date on a ticket and write that day's date next to it. This looks to me like an (invalid) attempt to change the validity. It was the return part of an off-peak return with no break of journey restriction so should have...

www.railforums.co.uk

Staff failing to understand break of journey rules (again)

Today while using the return part of an off peak return i had to go through barriers to briefly leave a station between trains. Not surprisingly the ticket didn't work the barriers but the member of staff who let me through first wanted to make sure I understood that I had to complete my journey...

www.railforums.co.uk

I also found related discussions from 2012, 2015 and 2018:

FTPE 'dating' tickets

I have encountered an issue using FTPE for break of journey and am wondering if anyone else can advise or has encountered similar problems? I regularly travel Durham to Manchester. On 17/10/12 I purchased a Return Manchester - Durham. I travelled from Durham to York on the return portion...

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The phantom ticket scribbler returns

This is my ticket that was checked between Liverpool and Wigan yesterday. The guard has circled the "Start date" and then has deliberately scribbled out the "Valid until" date so that it can hardly be read. The passenger sat opposite me, travelling on a day ticket, just got a circle around the...

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Circling of date on ticket?

Why do guards circle the date on a ticket? Is it used to signify that the ticket was used on that date? I used an anytime return on Monday (5/2), which was valid from last Friday (2/2), but my plans changed so I delayed my trip. I used the outbound and return parts of the ticket on the same...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[blueberry11]

Maybe the ticket shouldn't have be written/scanned at all. Remember that it may be the passenger or someone else that wrote on the ticket, not the guard. This is so that passengers can enjoy a break of journey so they may wish. Any markings on the ticket shouldn't preclude a BOJ/change of validity. I'm fine with doing it on advance tickets because you have to use the specific train, and the same start and destination stations and a BOJ is not permitted.

 

[The exile]

Why was it in there in the first place, then? Why is anything in there?

Historically (very historically...) collected ticket stubs were essential for the proper apportioning of revenue between different companies (they were dutifully returned to the Railway Clearing House). The idea of surrendering your used ticket is fairly normal to us - but wasn't to early travellers. It also permitted officials of the railway to confiscate your ticket if misused (or indeed if a passenger needed to be removed from a train for "creating a nuisance". An analogy would be "your" passport. You pay however much it is for one, but strictly speaking it remains the property of HM Government.