Most expensive and cheapest heritage railway per mile ?

[railfan99]

No Singles.... Why can't it just operate like a real railway. I wouldn't have given them my money. That's a budget airline ticket to somewhere in Europe.... Imagine a family having to pay that.... Annual or not, it's not good value if you live in Penzance and are on holiday, or even from abroad for that matter.

From overseas, I am in a group least likely to benefit.

Many unsubsidised heritage railways the world over struggle to make a net surplus. Using the 'Companies House' site to look up accounts (dated, as most recent tends to be for the financial year ending in UK on 31 March 2023), there are quite a few that recorded a deficit of as much as GBP500,000.

I'm therefore happy to pay GBP32.50 to travel on West Somerset Railway even though I'm a shareholder. Same applies to GBP49.50 at NYMR even though for one or two return trips the latter is not far off the Pacific Peso's A$100, a significant cost for a day's outing.

If we enjoy heritage railways, paying an adult fare is an excellent way to support marvellous operations with numerous dedicated, selfless volunteers such as @paul1609.

In c.1968 when 'normal' steam train working ceased in England, who'd have thought 56 years later there'd be a huge number of preserved railways in England/Wales/Scotland and (have been there but not familiar with) Northern Ireland?

 

[Flying Phil]

Well said Railfan.

 

[duffield]

I'd always encourage anyone who can afford it to pay the full adult maximum fare regardless of what discounts or shorter fares are available, if you want to see these railways still operating in five or ten years time.

 

[Mike Machin]

As a family visitor, one of the best value locations has to be The Didcot Railway Centre. Children quickly get bored on even a short five-mile conventional heritage railway journeys, whereas at Didcot they can enjoy unlimited short rides up and down one, and sometimes two demonstration lines, explore the locomotives, get into the cabs of some of them, have a picnic, watch a locomotive being turned on the turntable, see engines in steam at very close quarters and watch them in action, enjoy an ice cream, let of steam and run around - the perfect day out!

Two adults and two children - £50.00 and under threes go free, plus discounts for Granny and Gramps.

 

[Vespa]

As a family visitor, one of the best value locations has to be The Didcot Railway Centre. Children quickly get bored on even a short five-mile conventional heritage railway journeys, whereas at Didcot they can enjoy unlimited short rides up and down one, and sometimes two demonstration lines, explore the locomotives, get into the cabs of some of them, have a picnic, watch a locomotive being turned on the turntable, see engines in steam at very close quarters and watch them in action, enjoy an ice cream, let of steam and run around - the perfect day out!

Two adults and two children - £50.00 and under threes go free, plus discounts for Granny and Gramps.

I've not been yet, is the broad gauge loco still running ?

 

[Harpers Tate]

I think heritage railways need to be considered, not alongside regular services that are intended as a transport solution, but alongside attractions - for that is what they are in reality. Admission to a theme park or museum might be better comparisions. Sure - there will be those few who intend to get from A to B but they will be a minority. Most will go to be entertained for the day. And much like an attarction, the admission typically does not vary based on how much of it you intend to use. Alton Towers £37 for example whether you use all the rides or not.

 

[Krokodil]

I've not been yet, is the broad gauge loco still running ?

It's been out of ticket for some years, but I think that they're looking at returning Firefly to steam.

 

[NER1621]

I think heritage railways need to be considered, not alongside regular services that are intended as a transport solution, but alongside attractions - for that is what they are in reality. Admission to a theme park or museum might be better comparisions.

At last, someone gets it.

 

[nanstallon]

Most heritage railways, at least the earliest ones to start up, were on a public transport ethos. The people who worked so hard to reopen closed branch lines saw their aim as restoring the old BR service, only run by amateurs. But this was more nostalgia than realism, because in the 1960s everybody wanted their own car, and didn't want to be tied to timetables and ride on public transport to get around. Very gradually, heritage railways have come to realise that their customers are coming for entertainment, rather than a means of getting from A to B.

I have to admit that I don't like the fairground atmosphere of today's heritage railway scene, and (selfishly) enjoy travelling at a quieter time of the day in a half empty train just like the old pre-BR closure days, but if the unsubsidised railways don't draw in the masses, then they won't last for very long. So, one has to accept that lightly loaded trains are being weeded out, and there is an emphasis on attracting (often noisy) families. Nothing like it used to be in 1962, but at least the old steam engines are kept running, even if they do look too clean!

 

[michaelh]

Went to Severn Valley Railway, walk up ticket is £32 rail rover pass, on 1940s event it's £40.

If you pay in advance you may get it a little bit cheaoer then you get £2 booking fee so you may gain £4 savings on walk up tickets.


I thought it was a touch on the steep side.

£32 ÷16 miles is about £2 per mileat the cheaper walk up price.


Which railway do you consider to be good value per mile ?

Since it is 16 miles each way, your return journey is 32 miles and therefore £1 per mile.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Didcot Railway Centre charges £19+ for unlimited rides on its two lines. These are just 35 and 15 chains in length, so 5/8ths of a mile in total.

Of course, there is a lot more to see.

 

[philthetube]

Isle of Man railways take some beating, £21 for a day ticket or £59 for 7 days includes 15 miles on the steam railway, 13 miles on the electric railway, 5 miles on the snaefell mountain railway plus the Douglas horse trams, the groundle glen railway and the Lacy mine railway.

Also included are all buses on the island.

 

[paul1609]

Isle of Man railways take some beating, £21 for a day ticket or £59 for 7 days includes 15 miles on the steam railway, 13 miles on the electric railway, 5 miles on the snaefell mountain railway plus the Douglas horse trams, the groundle glen railway and the Lacy mine railway.

Also included are all buses on the island.

I think its arguable that the Isle Of Man are heritage railways at all and it should of course be discussed under the International sub forum.

 

[Krokodil]

I think its arguable that the Isle Of Man are heritage railways at all and it should of course be discussed under the International sub forum.

They're just as heritage as many of the other outfits discussed.

 

[Belfastmarty]

They're just as heritage as many of the other outfits discussed.

Certainly, from a pure railway perspective they are as heritage as any other. I suspect @paul1609 is alluding to the government ownership aspect of the IOM lines.

 

[Krokodil]

Certainly, from a pure railway perspective they are as heritage as any other. I suspect @paul1609 is alluding to the government ownership aspect of the IOM lines.

There's certainly more authenticity on the Isle of Man than there is (for example) at Bala Lake.

 

[Ianigsy]

A few weeks ago, some friends and I called in at Crich Tramway Village because we happened to be in the area, only to be put off by the £23 annual admission price. We didn’t have all day to spend there and would happily have paid £10-12 for a ride up and down on a tram, but that wasn’t on offer.

I think a lot of heritage attractions (not just railways) have discovered that if you have a couple of large towns and cities within an hour’s travelling time, you can get people to sign up for an annual family ticket and they’ll come back several times during the course of the year if you can organise, say, an Easter egg hunt, a fairground or a brass band concert in the summer, a Halloween ghost train and a Polar Express, and spend another £10-odd per person on food, drink and souvenirs.

 

[tram21]

If your an enthusiast that visits many heritage railways in a year outside of the galas and special events why not think about becoming a "Friend of the HRA" for £25 https://www.hra.uk.com/membership/friends-of-the-hra. This entitles you to buy a HRA privilege card for 2 people for £180 that gives you free or discounted travel on most of the heritage railways https://www.hra.uk.com/hra-privilege-2024/privilege-participating-railways. £180 sounds a lot of money up front but thats £90 per person and the 2nd person isnt specified In the context of a visit to the NYMR and say one of the Welsh Narrow Gauge railways it probably isnt a bad deal and youll have the added bonus of showing your support for the heritage railway industry so maybe you like the idea of volunteering at a heritage railway but dont have the time because of work or family commitments? Use of the privilege card will align you with the inner core of working enthusiasts.

Disclaimer: Paul1609 is the co-ordinator of HRA Privilige for the Kent & East Sussex Railway. He receives no personal benefits from promoting the scheme. All the HRA member railways receive benefits from the scheme in the terms of reduced membership fees for the Professional Body that represents the industry in association with Government the ORR and World wide heritage railway associations

Even better volunteer at a heritage railway!! We get a card for such an incredibly low price that if you use it well the price per mile would be less than £0.01!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2024 ==

A few weeks ago, some friends and I called in at Crich Tramway Village because we happened to be in the area, only to be put off by the £23 annual admission price. We didn’t have all day to spend there and would happily have paid £10-12 for a ride up and down on a tram, but that wasn’t on offer.

I volunteer at Crich as a conductor, and am disappointed to hear that- the price includes a whole year's return so if you were to visit once again in the year then it'd be £11.50 a visit (I hope this was advertised!). It would be great if there was a price just for a tram ride, but it wouldn't be realistic to enforce unfortunately

 

[Krokodil]

Even better volunteer at a heritage railway!! We get a card for such an incredibly low price that if you use it well the price per mile would be less than £0.01!!

I used to volunteer at the FfWHR but have rather lost my desire to ride with the current way that services operate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2024 ==

I volunteer at Crich as a conductor, and am disappointed to hear that- the price includes a whole year's return so if you were to visit once again in the year then it'd be £11.50 a visit (I hope this was advertised!). It would be great if there was a price just for a tram ride, but it wouldn't be realistic to enforce unfortunately

These annual pass tickets that several railways are doing (I'm assuming that it's to do with gift aid or something) are great if you live down the road, but Crich is four hours from me.

 

[paul1609]

Certainly, from a pure railway perspective they are as heritage as any other. I suspect @paul1609 is alluding to the government ownership aspect of the IOM lines.

Im alluding to the average £5m pa subsidy that the railways receive from the IOM Government: https://www.gov.im/media/1381876/isle-of-man-heritage-railway-review-final-report_compressed.pdf
Obviously this is going to impact the cost per mile (to passengers) and doesnt make it a fair comparison to the UK Heritage Railways.

 

[Krokodil]

Im alluding to the average £5m pa subsidy that the railways receive from the IOM Government: https://www.gov.im/media/1381876/isle-of-man-heritage-railway-review-final-report_compressed.pdf
Obviously this is going to impact the cost per mile (to passengers) and doesnt make it a fair comparison to the UK Heritage Railways.

Most UK heritage railways are staffed by unpaid volunteers and receive capital grant funding from the likes of the HLF. Some run on land owned by the local authority, leased to them for a peppercorn. They're in receipt of subsidies too.

 

[Belperpete]

I think a lot of heritage attractions (not just railways) have discovered that if you have a couple of large towns and cities within an hour’s travelling time, you can get people to sign up for an annual family ticket and they’ll come back several times during the course of the year if you can organise, say, an Easter egg hunt, a fairground or a brass band concert in the summer, a Halloween ghost train and a Polar Express, and spend another £10-odd per person on food, drink and souvenirs.

I think they are banking on most people NOT coming back. Because if they do come back, they will be taking up seats that could have been sold, to people who would probably also have spent money on food, drink and souvenirs, on top of the ticket price.

Likewise the push back against part journey and single fares. Someone making a part journey is taking up a seat that probably could have been sold to someone making a full journey, so really shouldn't expect to pay significantly less.

Making the tickets into annual tickets is a just a way of trying to sweeten the pill, as ticket prices are having to increase to cover the significant increase in costs of coal, electricity, steel, etc. As Railfan pointed out, many heritage railways have been running at a loss the last few years - this situation cannot continue indefinitely, people are going to have to get used to paying realistic fares.

 

[Towers]

Making the tickets into annual tickets is a just a way of trying to sweeten the pill, as ticket prices are having to increase to cover the significant increase in costs of coal, electricity, steel, etc. As Railfan pointed out, many heritage railways have been running at a loss the last few years - this situation cannot continue indefinitely, people are going to have to get used to paying realistic fares.

Exactly this! There appears to be a view that a heritage railway should somehow be a cheap day out, and yet it’s surely obvious to us all that the running costs must be very substantial indeed. Coaling and fueling locomotives and maintaining rolling stock, ensuring upkeep of infrastructure and paying the bills all very much do not come cheap. Yes the staff will be primarily volunteers, but that has little effect on the rest of the expenses. Heritage lines have made a strong and successful leap into the wider tourist market, well beyond existing purely so that a few anoraks can turn up each day and reluctantly pay pittance, and that’s a good thing; it’s a success story for a sector of the tourism market which would otherwise struggle to exist.

It is often talked about in bus preservation circles how some folk are more than happy to do the rounds at running days and rallies, riding about for free on other peoples’ buses (it is virtually impossible for private owners to charge any sort of fare due to the legal complexities involved) but will steadfastly refuse to stump up a fiver or so for the day’s timetable booklet so that they’re contributing something. There does appear to be a degree of entitlement amongst some quarters of the various enthusiast fraternities.

A few weeks ago, some friends and I called in at Crich Tramway Village because we happened to be in the area, only to be put off by the £23 annual admission price. We didn’t have all day to spend there and would happily have paid £10-12 for a ride up and down on a tram, but that wasn’t on offer.

With respect, 20 quid is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. And, of course, in this instance it’s going towards ensuring that something which is not easy to run will continue to be there for everyone’s future enjoyment.

 

[tram21]

I think they are banking on most people NOT coming back

In our staff office at Crich there's the daily visitor numbers posted. It's interesting that around half of entries recorded are 'free' entries (e.g. returns or members) showing many people do use their return visit.
I think we certainly like return visitors as as you said, they spend money in the shop, cafe etc, and perhaps may spend more than they would if they hadn't had a 'free' day out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2024 ==

With respect, 20 quid is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. And, of course, in this instance it’s going towards ensuring that something which is not easy to run will continue to be there for everyone’s future enjoyment.

I do agree, for a full day out there's so much to do at Crich that's worth £23, and I think something which is especially important is having stuff to do that isn't wholly tram related.

Maybe paying £23 just for a tram ride like lanigsy wanted is too much, but comercially the museum doesn't really want visitors like this as they won't buy food etc, so there's no incentive to cater to this minority of guests.

The current model at Crich is working very well, I'm nor sure accounts wise, but visitors wise we'll get 300+ visitors on a weekday, and can reach 1000+ on weekends!

 

[Towers]

…

The current model at Crich is working very well, I'm nor sure accounts wise, but visitors wise we'll get 300+ visitors on a weekday, and can reach 1000+ on weekends!

That’s excellent news, very pleased to hear that

 

[Falcon1200]

some folk are more than happy to do the rounds at running days and rallies, riding about for free on other peoples’ buses (it is virtually impossible for private owners to charge any sort of fare due to the legal complexities involved) but will steadfastly refuse to stump up a fiver or so for the day’s timetable booklet so that they’re contributing something.

This year I have taken advantage of free bus services to heritage railways, but would have been happy to have paid something towards them; In the past I have made voluntary donations but even asking for these seems to have ceased, is this no longer allowed?

Living in Scotland I have never visited Crich, but would like to at some point, and £23 is IMHO a reasonable charge.

 

[Belperpete]

Various heritage railways have converted their full-line return into either a day rover, or a yearly ticket, as a way of making it look better value. Most people will just make the single round trip, so it costs the railway little to add the free upgrade to make it a rover or season.

The day rover option seems to work reasonably well as a marketing tool, but unfortunately the yearly season option does seem to generate a bit of kick-back. Rather than thinking they are getting something extra for free, there are obviously those who think that they are being asked to pay for something they don't want.

The commercial reality is that if the railway were to offer just a standard full line return, it would have to be charged at the price of that annual season.

 

[Iskra]

The annual ticket may prove a bit of a red herring for heritage sites.

I hold one for the NYMR so I will visit 4-5 times by the time it expires. However, by that point I will have thoroughly completed all there is to do there and ridden most of the loco fleet by that point, so I’m not likely to visit again for 3-5 years now. Without the annual ticket, I might have visited more steadily once per annum on a day rover over a few years, so they might actually be losing revenue from me.

The Crich tramway, are also losing revenue from me. I’d probably give it a go at £15, but I’m not interested in trams to the extent of parting with £23, when I can go to one of the nearby railways for £15 which I’m more interested in. I don’t mean to disrespect what’s on offer there, or the volunteers who run it, I’m just not that interested in trams.

These annual tickets will gain some revenue, but also lose some and the attractions need to consider it carefully. I think the NYMR can justify it a bit more being one of the Premier Heritage railways, being in a touristy area and having Whitby services, but it probably wouldn’t be revenue positive on many other railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2024 ==

Just as an aside, there are still some fantastic value railways out there. The Ribble Steam Railway gala (it was either £5 or £10 for a day rover with 4 loco’s in steam from memory) ELR diesel Sunday (£15-18 for 8/9 diesel loco’s), Midland Railway Gala (£15 for four loco’s plus other attractions) and KWVR regular fares have all been great value this year on my visits. These railways are likely to benefit from others having high headline prices.

 

[paul1609]

Most UK heritage railways are staffed by unpaid volunteers and receive capital grant funding from the likes of the HLF. Some run on land owned by the local authority, leased to them for a peppercorn. They're in receipt of subsidies too.

£5 million is twice the total turnover of my railway the Kent & East Sussex we last had major funding from the HLF in 1999 despite trying hard to gain further. We own all the railway and its liabilities we receive no financial support from the local authorities. In our area the premier League Railway the Bluebell has only just recovered to exceed £5 million turnover (the Isle of Man subsidy). Thats why the IOM railways are cheap they are owned and heavily subsidised by the IOM Govt.

 

[Krokodil]

Rather than thinking they are getting something extra for free, there are obviously those who think that they are being asked to pay for something they don't want.

The commercial reality is that if the railway were to offer just a standard full line return, it would have to be charged at the price of that annual season.

There's something in that. If I went to Crich, asked for a Day Rover and the price was £22, I wouldn't have an issue. £23 for an annual pass? Hang on, I don't want an annual pass!

£5 million is twice the total turnover of my railway the Kent & East Sussex we last had major funding from the HLF in 1999 despite trying hard to gain further. We own all the railway and its liabilities we receive no financial support from the local authorities. In our area the premier League Railway the Bluebell has only just recovered to exceed £5 million turnover (the Isle of Man subsidy). Thats why the IOM railways are cheap they are owned and heavily subsidised by the IOM Govt.

The Isle of Man railways have a collective mileage of 38 miles. More than three K&ESRs. It's not such a big figure in that context.