The 2024 US presidential election.

[Bantamzen]

Worse, it's a joke that is likely to spread misinformation. Making jokes as a politician is fine - but the idea is the joke would normally be (a) funny, and (b) so obviously a joke that no-one listening to it is likely to take it seriously. The problem here is that some US Trump-supporters are actually inclined to seriously believe that the UK is an Islamist country. Trump has after all quite seriously made roughly that claim, at least about London. So for Vance to make that claim in a context that's only borderline funny (doesn't have any self-deprecation or any pun or play on words or any of the other qualities that would normally make a joke funny) starts to look like misinformation as much as a joke.

It's already spreading misinformation, there are Americans already shouting that the UK should be "invaded". I would hope that the PM have something to say about it, even if it was to state that Vance is talking out of Trump's behind.

 

[edwin_m]

Bit West Ham (One stop short of Barking)

More like Dagenham Heathway.

 

[brad465]

Not really the sort of tone a potential Vice-President should be using with the US's so-called allies, of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2024 ==



Had to look up that. I presume you mean this individual?

Marjorie Taylor Greene - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Good grief. Never mind far-right: in my opinion this person belongs firmly in the ultra-right category. Remind me to never, ever visit Georgia's 14th district.

If Trump and MTG had a child together, they'd make Putin look like Gandhi.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I see that Biden has confessed it was not a good idea/poor wording for his “put Trump in the bullseye” remark. Let’s hope it is a start on toning down the rhetoric.

Biden admits Trump 'bullseye' comments a mistake

The remarks came in an interview in which the president defended his rhetoric against his election rival.

www.bbc.co.uk

US President Joe Biden has said it was a mistake for him to say "time to put Trump in a bullseye", days before Saturday's assassination attempt on his election rival.

Mr Biden's remarks came in his first interview since the incident, in which he defended his rhetoric against Donald Trump and cited why it was important.

The president told NBC's Lester Holt his campaign had a duty to clearly communicate the threat of a second Trump term, adding that his words were not the ones that needed to be tempered.

After a brief pause following Saturday’s attack, presidential campaign events now appear to be back under way.

 

[Busaholic]

I see that Biden has confessed it was not a good idea/poor wording for his “put a target on Trump’s back” remark. Let’s hope it is a start on toning down the rhetoric.

He actually said '' it's time to put Trump in a bullseye'' in a private telephone call to a potential donor to Democrat funds, so any statement made by Trump loyalists that it could have incited anyone to kill is pathetic in the extreme. In any case, his use of the word 'bullseye' is indicative of his loss of brain power. Note no use of the words 'target' or 'back'. Didn't the Orange one himself incite his mob of followers to attack the Capitol in January 2020, with consequences that could have been far worse than they were, although they were bad enough?

Anyway, it's unfortunately far too late for anyone other than Trump to win in November save for something remarkable, even a divine intervention if you believe in these things. The Democrats lost their chance to choose a new candidate, which would have been their only hope. Will Biden manage to stagger and stumble on to January? The elimination of democracy and freedom, for all of us in the Western world, will be the inexorable result, and Russia and China will continue in their long-formulated plans, already fairly advanced, to dominate the whole world, perhaps with bit parts for North Korea and Iran.

 

[birchesgreen]

Don't write off Joe Biden yet.

 

[Howardh]

It's already spreading misinformation, there are Americans already shouting that the UK should be "invaded". I would hope that the PM have something to say about it, even if it was to state that Vance is talking out of Trump's behind.

With their knowledge of geography, I think we're pretty safe!

 

[brad465]

Janan Ganesh of the FT has done a cracking (IMO) piece about the doom loop of modern politics, that goes someway to explaining why two very old men are the best the US has to offer. In short, hatred towards politicians puts good candidates off, leaving incompetents more prominent, which creates further hatred/distrust.

The doom loop of modern politics

Hatred of politicians deters good people from the job, which makes government worse, which makes voters hate politicians still more

on.ft.com

This is the doom loop of modern politics: it is an ever more unpleasant line of work, which means fewer good people choose it, which depletes the quality of public life — that is, governance itself and the comportment of those responsible for it — which in turn makes voters more hostile to politicians. And back around again.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Not helped by the media which likes to stir the pot and made themselves part of the problem and not part of the solution.

 

[EZJ]

Not helped by the media which likes to stir the pot and made themselves part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Sadly virtually the entire media is bought and paid for by certain groups who have vested interests in getting their agenda across. The ordinary citizen of any country is way down the list of priorities these days.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Sadly virtually the entire media is bought and paid for by certain groups who have vested interests in getting their agenda across. The ordinary citizen of any country is way down the list of priorities these days.

Sadly very true imho

 

[brad465]

Looks like it's not just lone deluded folk who's been after Trump, an Iran state plot to assassinate him was recently foiled too and security increased as a result (clearly not enough to stop the latest attempt though):

Trump security boosted weeks ago over Iran plot to kill him

There is no link between the plot and Saturday's attack, but disclosure raises questions over how a gunman got so close.

www.bbc.co.uk

Protection for Donald Trump was boosted several weeks ago after US authorities learned of an Iranian plot to kill him, according to national security officials.

Officials say there is no known connection between the Iranian plot and the assassination attempt on the former president on Saturday in Pennsylvania.

However, the disclosure that security had been tightened raises further questions over how Thomas Matthew Crooks, 20, was able to climb a building and get close enough to fire at Trump.

The US Secret Service and the Trump campaign were notified of the Iranian threat, and security was increased as a result, according to a US national security official.

Trump and officials including his former secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, have faced threats from Tehran since ordering the drone strike assassination of Qassim Soleimani, the leader of Iran's Quds force, in Iraq in 2020.

Anthony Guglielmi, a spokesman for the US Secret Service, said it and other agencies were "constantly receiving new potential threat information and taking action to adjust resources, as needed".

"We cannot comment on any specific threat stream, other than to say that the Secret Service takes threats seriously and responds accordingly.”

The Trump campaign said it did not comment on security matters and referred BBC questions to the Secret Service.

Adrienne Watson, a spokeswoman for the White House National Security Council, said that US security officials had been "tracking Iranian threats against former Trump administration officials for years".

"These threats arise from Iran's desire to seek revenge for the killing of Soleimani," she said. "We consider this a national and homeland security matter of the highest priority."

She however reiterated that the investigation "has not identified ties" between Crooks and "any accomplice or co-conspirator, foreign or domestic."

The Iranian mission at the United Nations called the report "unsubstantiated and malicious", adding that Trump "is a criminal who must be prosecuted and punished in a court of law".

In 2022, the Department of Justice announced criminal charges against a member of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, alleging that he was orchestrating a plot to kill Mr Bolton.

Prosecutors said the plot was “likely in retaliation” for the killing of Soleimani.

Questions have swirled about how police officers and agents responsible for the rally at Butler County fairgrounds, Pennsylvania, allowed Crooks to get so close.

The director of the Secret Service admitted that local police were inside the building while Crooks was on its roof aiming at Trump 130m (430ft) away.

CBS News, the BBC's US partner, reported three local police snipers were inside the building and had seen Crooks getting on the roof.

The local sheriff's department referred BBC questions to the state police, which said it was not responsible for the area containing the building.

A state police spokesman told the BBC that it provided "all resources" requested by the Secret Service, including between 30 to 40 troopers inside the perimeter.

President Joe Biden has ordered an independent review of how the gunman could have come so close to killing Trump, and the Secret Service also faces probes from Congress.

 

[edwin_m]

Apparent failings in protecting Trump are just going to feed into the conspiracy theories amongst his supporters. And there are people who will think if the Iranians are out to get him, he must be doing something right.

This gets worse and worse. Even if that bullet had been a couple of inches further over, we'd have ended up with one of his sons picking up the mantle, with the right to serve two terms and many more decades ahead of him.

 

[brad465]

Apparent failings in protecting Trump are just going to feed into the conspiracy theories amongst his supporters. And there are people who will think if the Iranians are out to get him, he must be doing something right.

This gets worse and worse. Even if that bullet had been a couple of inches further over, we'd have ended up with one of his sons picking up the mantle, with the right to serve two terms and many more decades ahead of him.

This Iran business should also serve to debunk any notion (it won't of course) that Trump won't get involved in/start foreign wars: in his first term he was minutes away from calling an air strike on Iran at one point, then of course in 2020 actually oversaw a drone strike killing that top Iranian general that will have been the motive for the Iran assassination plot. He also oversaw the ISIS leader's killing (whether justified or not, it's still foreign military intervention), recognised Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and moved the US embassy there, and ordered strikes against Syrian government forces on two occasions.

 

[Bayum]

May as well close this thread. No way Trump is losing after everything that’s happened

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Killing Trump would be viewed as an act of war. It may not be full scale but the writing would be on the wall for the Ayatollah and other senior clerics. I can not believe Iran would be that stupid unless it is emboldened by China and Russia support.

 

[brad465]

Killing Trump would be viewed as an act of war. It may not be full scale but the writing would be on the wall for the Ayatollah and other senior clerics. I can not believe Iran would be that stupid unless it is emboldened by China and Russia support.

They might get Chinese support but Russia is too bogged down in Ukraine to provide Iran anything. Remember that Russia is using kit from Iran and North Korea to support its war in Ukraine, while still making snail-pace progress. I wonder if Iran wanted the plot to be discovered so it would never have to be executed (pardon the pun), they can show their capability without having to face the consequences that come with a successful attempt.

 

[Busaholic]

This gets worse and worse. Even if that bullet had been a couple of inches further over, we'd have ended up with one of his sons picking up the mantle, with the right to serve two terms and many more decades ahead of him.

Could now be even worse if J.D.Vance got to the top position. His Wikipedia entry got amended sometime yesterday to delete all reference to the Dark Enlightenment, of which he is suspected to be a member, as it was founded by some of the acknowledged influencers in his political 'development'. If they only believe half of the rubbish they spout, then the rest of us better be very worried indeed. He was born in the appropriate year of 1984, incidentally!

 

[birchesgreen]

If they do even a fraction of the Project 2025 blueprint then the US will become a very dark place, then the fear is they'll come for the UK next... though as the Heritage goons seem to think Liz Truss is worth funding you might wonder just how well they understand UK politics.

 

[Bantamzen]

Apparent failings in protecting Trump are just going to feed into the conspiracy theories amongst his supporters. And there are people who will think if the Iranians are out to get him, he must be doing something right.

This gets worse and worse. Even if that bullet had been a couple of inches further over, we'd have ended up with one of his sons picking up the mantle, with the right to serve two terms and many more decades ahead of him.

Ah yes, some random US citizen takes shots at the former President, immediately there needs to be a wider conspiracy to blame, who could be behind it...??

How about Russia..?? Nope, Trump wants to cuddle up to Putin and needs an excuse to bail out of helping Ukraine.
How about China..?? Nope, Trump kinda likes Xi Jinping so he's not going to want to upset him, same goes for Kim Jong Un.

Oooh, ooh Iran!!! Yeah now there's a country they can blame, full of Islamists all ready to take over the universe and threaten the American Dream. We have a winner, plus everyone knows that countries like the UK and France are on the verge of falling to Islamic Extremists, especially in the UK because Labour innit, so we can start to blame them for anything and everything....

Being serious though this is exactly what is playing out on social media across the Republican spectrum, and will be a least one focus of the Trump campaign team in the months to come I'm sure. For the first time I'm seriously worried not only that Trump may well get this, but what a Trump led US will look and act like from 2025. Oh wait, they already told us with Project 2025, the US will become a radicalised far right conservative Christian nation, fearful & hatful of the rest of the world & with the arsenal to do something about it. Worrying times.

 

[nw1]

May as well close this thread. No way Trump is losing after everything that’s happened

I would beg to differ.

You don't vote someone in just because they were the victim of an attempted assassination. That is completely and utterly irrational.

You vote someone in by assessing their policies and character.

I suspect at least half of Americans would continue to question Trump's policies and character.

Many will not forget the events of January 2021. Many will not forget he is a convicted felon.

Many will not forget that he has an appalling record on civil rights and dubious record on climate change, at a time when half the Northern Hemisphere (not the UK, admittedly) is suffering yet another extreme hot summer.

Many will not forget the conspiracy theories currently being made by some Republicans that this was all at the behest of the Democrats.

Many will be impressed at the Democrats' mature response to the attempted assassination, and the fact that they have suspended electioneering and called for the toning down of inflammatory rhetoric on both sides.

Put it this way, to me, as a non-American, the Democrats seem to be the adults in the building right now.

 

[birchesgreen]

Many have written off Joe Biden before and they have discovered the bitterness of defeat afterwards, so let's stay hoping eh?

 

[nw1]

Killing Trump would be viewed as an act of war. It may not be full scale but the writing would be on the wall for the Ayatollah and other senior clerics. I can not believe Iran would be that stupid unless it is emboldened by China and Russia support.

And that is a big problem. Any theoretical assassination of this kind would not be an act of war, it would be state-sponsored murder.

I would like to hope that the lessons of WWI have been learnt, when Austro-Hungary's appalling response to the assassination of Franz Ferdinand dragged Europe into war, and vast numbers died in the trenches as a result.

 

[edwin_m]

You don't vote someone in just because they were the victim of an attempted assassination. That is completely and utterly irrational.

You vote someone in by assessing their policies and character.

Unfortunately many Trump supporters don't behave rationally, and currently polls suggest more voters support Trump than Biden regardless of policies or character.

 

[nw1]

Unfortunately many Trump supporters don't behave rationally, and currently polls suggest more voters support Trump than Biden regardless of policies or character.

Which reflects very badly on the USA as a country.

I guess we have to get used to the idea that the US, despite speaking English and being the product of colonisation from the UK amongst other countries, is just not very like us. But unfortunately it wields a lot of power globally and the only other equally powerful countries have even more hostile leaders.

I do wonder whether non-US Western countries, including the UK, EU, Canada and Australia, for example, need to get closer to each other and help each other because increasingly I don't think we can rely on the US to do much for us.

 

[edwin_m]

Which reflects very badly on the USA as a country.

I guess we have to get used to the idea that the US, despite speaking English and being the product of colonisation from the UK amongst other countries, is just not very like us. But unfortunately it wields a lot of power globally and the only other equally powerful countries have even more hostile leaders.

I do wonder whether non-US Western countries, including the UK, EU, Canada and Australia, for example, need to get closer to each other and help each other because increasingly I don't think we can rely on the US to do much for us.

Indeed. One inheritance from Britain was FPTP voting system, which has been reformed even less there than here and could have been devised specifically to encourage polarisation.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And that is a big problem. Any theoretical assassination of this kind would not be an act of war, it would be state-sponsored murder.

I would like to hope that the lessons of WWI have been learnt, when Austro-Hungary's appalling response to the assassination of Franz Ferdinand dragged Europe into war, and vast numbers died in the trenches as a result.

Correct. You know your history well. Kudos

 

[DoubleLemon]

Associate justices of SCOTUS the late greats Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg being the gold standard in that regard. Diametrically opposed but really great friends.

The world dosn't work that way anymore. It seems to be "If you agree with me on issue x, you must agree with me on every other single issue. Otherwise we are enemies."

 

[AlterEgo]

I would beg to differ.

You don't vote someone in just because they were the victim of an attempted assassination. That is completely and utterly irrational.

You're missing the fact that many non-voters or occasional voters will be galvanised by Trump's show of strength and will perceive him differently now he has been the subject of an attempted murder.

Trump may also strike a slightly less combative tone now which may increase his appeal among softer, undecided voters.

It's not just "MAGA v sensibles". This is an immature way of looking at US politics; there are many undecided voters in the swing states and the assassination attempt shows Trump as courageous and strong, which is in stark contrast to Biden's complete ineptitude and failing health and mental capacity.

Trump was already running a cleaner, more polished, and more mature campaign than 2016 and 2020, which did not even try to focus on his apparent strength or virility; they've been letting Biden simply embarrass himself.

This is very bad news for the Dems, as now Trump has received one of the strongest unsolicited boosts to a campaign you can have.

You vote someone in by assessing their policies and character.

I suspect at least half of Americans would continue to question Trump's policies and character.

Many will not forget the events of January 2021. Many will not forget he is a convicted felon.

Many will not forget that he has an appalling record on civil rights and dubious record on climate change, at a time when half the Northern Hemisphere (not the UK, admittedly) is suffering yet another extreme hot summer.

Many will not forget the conspiracy theories currently being made by some Republicans that this was all at the behest of the Democrats.

Many will be impressed at the Democrats' mature response to the attempted assassination, and the fact that they have suspended electioneering and called for the toning down of inflammatory rhetoric on both sides.

Put it this way, to me, as a non-American, the Democrats seem to be the adults in the building right now.

Sorry but this will age like a pint of milk and I will revisit it in November when it'll be blue cheese!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

He actually said '' it's time to put Trump in a bullseye'' in a private telephone call to a potential donor to Democrat funds, so any statement made by Trump loyalists that it could have incited anyone to kill is pathetic in the extreme. In any case, his use of the word 'bullseye' is indicative of his loss of brain power. Note no use of the words 'target' or 'back'.

Yes you are correct. I have now edited my post and also added a link and quotation from a reputable source.