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Why didn't the 1967 Bournemouth electrification extend to Poole?

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alf

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The 1980s extension to Weymouth was similarly done on a budget. My understanding is that Dorchester - Moreton was singled in 1985 largely because there wasn't enough money to pay for the whole track to be electrified, so that section was singled to help keep it in budget.

Not only did this singling save on the budget, it also increased the revenue available. The Government gave substantial extra grants to BR for singling “surplus” double track over a period of at least five years.
Waterloo/ Bournemouth/ Weymouth services are still reaping the “rewards” of this short sighted economy with delays on down trains imported into up trains due to the long 5 mile single track section east of Dorchester.
 
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Taunton

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Not only did this singling save on the budget, it also increased the revenue available. The Government gave substantial extra grants to BR for singling “surplus” double track over a period of at least five years.
Waterloo/ Bournemouth/ Weymouth services are still reaping the “rewards” of this short sighted economy with delays on down trains imported into up trains due to the long 5 mile single track section east of Dorchester.
I believe that Dorchester to Moreton is not a tracks issue so much as substations, that there is only capacity for one train at a time on Dorchester to Moreton, so this is a way of ensuring it.

One negative cost aspect is we are still stuck with mechanical signalboxes controlling the section. I understand it has a scheduling aspect that governs even Waterloo timetabling.
 

Man of Kent

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Appreciate this is an aside, but I concur with your comparison. Have just checked a few facts on that: a 310 had 38 more seats than a VEP overall and weighed about 10T more. I can't remember if they ever ran in 12 car format on the southern WCML - can't remember seeing any such formations, but may be wrong?
A 310 only had three bays of first class accommodation, against 8 on a VEP. Also the brake van was smaller on a 310, enabling seven seating bays against the six of a VEP (and 4 extra seats because there was no corridor between coaches 2 and 3 in a 310 - but I seem to recall this was installed at refurbishment in the mid 80s). Given the large proportion of first in REPs and TCs, I doubt that reducing the first class would have been an option for a Bournemouth Mk 2 VEP.

Very much inclined to agree that the curvature at Poole would not have been conducive to coupling and uncoupling.
 

The exile

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I believe that Dorchester to Moreton is not a tracks issue so much as substations, that there is only capacity for one train at a time on Dorchester to Moreton, so this is a way of ensuring it.
Or at least a “logical consequence” of it. If you can only have one train in the area, there’s no need to have double track. (Not saying I necessarily agree)
 

Helvellyn

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I do wonder if there was an accounting trick that rebuilding the TCs from existing Mark 1s appeared substantially cheaper than either new build Mark 1 style units or Mark 2 style units.

Cost of a 4-TC versus 4 Mark 2s (Two TSOs, FK and BSO) would be interesting for example.

The whole scheme was well designed given the constraints at the time and I am sure there are lots of decisions lost to time that could be grouped under, "so that's why they did that".

Just a shame that transfer of the West of England route to the WR didn't allow the concept to be extended there (e.g. third rail to Salisbury; TCs beyond).
 

Snow1964

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Just a shame that transfer of the West of England route to the WR didn't allow the concept to be extended there (e.g. third rail to Salisbury; TCs beyond).
Don't forget during 1960s Andover was being expanded as a new town, I understand some of the estates were actually built by London Councils who moved people out from the slums and bomb damaged areas.

Andover might have made a better terminus for the electric local trains than Basingstoke. Not a lot of population until get to relatively small Salisbury (which lot of trains now terminate at, but more driven by operating requirements as that was where steam shed was, and nowadays a DMU depot on old GWR station site.
 

Gloster

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Do remember that when BR got this done it was probably going through its darkest hour, what with Beeching having only just happened. It had to be done as cheaply as possible or it just wouldn’t have got done.
 

Magdalia

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Don't forget during 1960s Andover was being expanded as a new town, I understand some of the estates were actually built by London Councils who moved people out from the slums and bomb damaged areas.

Andover might have made a better terminus for the electric local trains than Basingstoke. Not a lot of population until get to relatively small Salisbury (which lot of trains now terminate at, but more driven by operating requirements as that was where steam shed was, and nowadays a DMU depot on old GWR station site.
Andover was not a New Town it was London overspill. Farnborough and Basingstoke were also London overspill.

There was no effective co-ordination between London overspill and rail provision. The most extreme example is Haverhill which lost its rail service completely. Sandy, St Neots and Huntingdon were all London overspill but had a dire train service until electrification 20 years later.
 

RT4038

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Andover was not a New Town it was London overspill. Farnborough and Basingstoke were also London overspill.

There was no effective co-ordination between London overspill and rail provision. The most extreme example is Haverhill which lost its rail service completely. Sandy, St Neots and Huntingdon were all London overspill but had a dire train service until electrification 20 years later.
Thetford was also London overspill, and lost its direct London trains (apart from Sundays, at least initially). But Thetford and Haverhill etc are far from Bournemouth, the subject of this thread.

Poole did not have terminating steam trains (in any number), so extending the third rail there would not have had serious consideration in those cash strapped times.
 

Magdalia

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Thetford was also London overspill, and lost its direct London trains (apart from Sundays, at least initially). But Thetford and Haverhill etc are far from Bournemouth, the subject of this thread.
My point was to demonstrate that London overspill would not have been a factor in deciding how the Bournemouth electrification was done.
 

edwin_m

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A 310 only had three bays of first class accommodation, against 8 on a VEP. Also the brake van was smaller on a 310, enabling seven seating bays against the six of a VEP (and 4 extra seats because there was no corridor between coaches 2 and 3 in a 310 - but I seem to recall this was installed at refurbishment in the mid 80s). Given the large proportion of first in REPs and TCs, I doubt that reducing the first class would have been an option for a Bournemouth Mk 2 VEP.

Very much inclined to agree that the curvature at Poole would not have been conducive to coupling and uncoupling.
I don't think anyone is suggesting the 310 layout would be replicated exactly on a hypothetical DC version. But the 310 does include things like an area with doors to each bay, thus demonstrating that these were possible within the overall Mk2 bodyshell.
 

ac6000cw

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Do remember that when BR got this done it was probably going through its darkest hour, what with Beeching having only just happened. It had to be done as cheaply as possible or it just wouldn’t have got done.
Exactly! You could say the same about some later schemes like Cambridge - Kings Lynn (which, like the Weymouth extension, also involved singling some of the Ely - Kings Lynn line).

The Bournemouth scheme was replacing steam with electric - the reductions in operating costs with elimination of the servicing costs of steam power (and only needing a driver in the cab) doubtless helped to justify it.

Rebuilding older loco-hauled stock into electric trains had been common 'Southern' practice for decades - it generally seemed to be a fairly frugal railway, the 'old rails' signal posts were another example. For the Bournemouth scheme they also rebuilt 10 class 71 electric locos into class 74 electro-diesels (which weren't very reliable on diesel and only lasted about 10 years).
 

Big Jumby 74

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Reference my earlier post #44 and the layout at Bournemouth depot, had the Gas Works Jn to Bournemouth West Jn curve still been in situ, stabling sidings 11-17 would have been rendered as dead end sidings (stops at the West end), which would have seriously compromised day to day depot operation/through put of trains. The attached image is admittedly very poor, that's down to my own photography, but have added a fine green line (left to right) to indicate the approximate path of the above mentioned curve, had it remained in place, and how it would have cut across the path of the above mentioned sidings (as they now are) and thus hindered the operation of a depot that in my mind, has the best operational throughput design of any on the present day L&SW network. For reference the 2 HAL departmental unit is on 14 road, roads to the left of as viewed are 15, 16 & 17, etc etc.
 

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Undaunted

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Looking at the 1974 timetable for the Bournemouth terminators (where it looks as if the down fast Bournemouth returned as the up slow - and vice versa), any extension of those trains to Poole would have required extra stock (presumably two trains) and therefore permanently higher operating costs.
in 1974, there were two 'Bournemouth terminators', those that had plodded down all stations from Woking, which arrived at xx37 and departed xx12 (formed of VEP or CIG stock). They generally used the bay platform on the up side for their 35 minute layover. The other Bournemouth terminators (to which I think you are referring) were the semi-fasts from Waterloo, arriving at Bournemouth at xx53 and departing xx56. They formed each other, in other words there was a 63 minute layover, the majority of which was spent in one of the Middle Sidings.

The 4-REP which had arrived with the Weymouth service at xx10 shunted to the Middle sidings as soon as the Weymouth portion had left and emerged shortly afterwards to be at the east end of the up through platform in time for the arrival of the Weymouth portion at xx34 and departure for London at xx40. It couldn't be any other way because inter-working of the fasts and semi-fasts would have resulted in the xx40 fast being formed of a single REP and 16-TC, and the xx56 being formed of 4-REP only!

With that said, as @BigJumby has said, attempting to split and join at Poole would have been very difficult, with light loco movement from the up to the down at the west end and two lots of empty stock movements also using the west end, in addition to the passenger train movements. Poole platform would have needed to accommodate a locomotive and 12 coaches and staff would have been needed for splitting and joining and all the empty stock movements. It might even have been necessary to establish a train crew depot or at least a PNB point for all the extra activity that splitting and joining would bring. Extra costs, extra operating complexity - not a very attractive proposition for BR.
 

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If you want to see what a proper electrification scheme looked like, consider the Kent electrification scheme 1958-62.

If Marples/Beeching hadn't happened, this might have been a truer template for what the Southern would have developed.
 

Dr Hoo

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There isn’t really an operational or commercial comparison between the South Eastern and South Western.

The Kent Coast electrification had the benefit of having the biggest traffic generators at the ‘far end’ (Dover and Folkestone as ports with Margate and Ramsgate as, then, vibrant seaside resorts). It also had a ‘circular’ morphology that made depot and power supply unusually easy. Ramsgate Depot, for example could resource effectively all routes to London, topped up with smaller facilities elsewhere. There was a diesel ‘cop out’ with Hastings as it was.

Over on the South Western neither Basingstoke nor Bournemouth was the end of the line but traffic prospects at Salisbury and beyond or at Weymouth were much weaker. So a significant element of either diesel over third rail (Salisbury line) or traction change (Bournemouth) was inevitable.
 

30907

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If you want to see what a proper electrification scheme looked like, consider the Kent electrification scheme 1958-62.

If Marples/Beeching hadn't happened, this might have been a truer template for what the Southern would have developed.
Fortunately Beeching didn't propose to close any of the routes under discussion, so I am not sure what he has to do with anything, nor what the SR would have done differently at Bournemouth :)

The Kent Coast scheme provided overgenerously for the lesser routes, and in 1967 the Sheerness-Faversham-Dover stoppers and Maidstone-Tonbridge fasts disappeared, and economies were made to the "Chatham fasts."
Events, old boy (as I believe Macmillan said) overtook the plan - and the Southern economised and adapted accordingly as one would have expected.
 

yorksrob

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Fortunately Beeching didn't propose to close any of the routes under discussion, so I am not sure what he has to do with anything, nor what the SR would have done differently at Bournemouth :)

The Kent Coast scheme provided overgenerously for the lesser routes, and in 1967 the Sheerness-Faversham-Dover stoppers and Maidstone-Tonbridge fasts disappeared, and economies were made to the "Chatham fasts."
Events, old boy (as I believe Macmillan said) overtook the plan - and the Southern economised and adapted accordingly as one would have expected.

Beeching was the chairman of BR, so he would have had a wider influence than just closures, which would have contributed to the "events". He and Marples arguably set the template for BR over the following decade at least.

The Kent scheme ensured that the secondary routes were electrified, and its notable that they survived.

If a Kent type scheme had been provided for Bournemouth, Alton - Winchester and Wareham - Swanage would probably have been included and probably would have survived to this day.
 

Magdalia

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Beeching was the chairman of BR, so he would have had a wider influence than just closures, which would have contributed to the "events". He and Marples arguably set the template for BR over the following decade at least.
The Beeching era ended with the Transport Act 1968, which recognised for the first time the social contribution of the railway and introduced Public Service Obligation grants.

Alton - Winchester and Wareham - Swanage
These closed because the Public Service Obligation grants were withdrawn.
 

yorksrob

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The Beeching era ended with the Transport Act 1968, which recognised for the first time the social contribution of the railway and introduced Public Service Obligation grants.

Quite. The Bournemouth line scheme was designed and completed in this era.

I'd argue that as the "hardship" criteria was the only one available to halt a closure and the scope of the PSO therefore so limited, that Beeching/Marples overshadowed that era as well.

These closed because the Public Service Obligation grants were withdrawn.

I'd be surprised if BR didn't have some dialogue with the government over which PSO grants were withdrawn.
 
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30907

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The Kent scheme ensured that the secondary routes were electrified,
Apart from Ashford-Hastings which was cut (and New Romney, but that was barely secondary!)
and its notable that they survived.
though probably not on the basis of their local passenger traffic alone (Canterbury W maybe?).
If a Kent type scheme had been provided for Bournemouth, Alton - Winchester
and Wareham - Swanage would probably have been included and probably would have survived to this day.
The first, probably (along with Eastleigh/St Denys-Portcreek Jn?), the second if Weymouth had gone electric.
 

yorksrob

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Apart from Ashford-Hastings which was cut (and New Romney, but that was barely secondary!)

though probably not on the basis of their local passenger traffic alone (Canterbury W maybe?).

The first, probably (along with Eastleigh/St Denys-Portcreek Jn?), the second if Weymouth had gone electric.

Yes, that's a good point - the Marshlink was trimmed. I think the fact that it was originally included says more about the ambition of the Southern Region.

Looking at the electrified lines such as Strood - Paddock Wood, I can't imagine that freight would have been a big factor in its survival.

I agree that the Portsmouth lines probably would have been done at that stage. Weymouth is an interesting one. Would the Southern Region have bothered with a bespoke push-pull solution if it had been allowed to design a gold standard type of scheme ?
 

D6130

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At the time of the electrification of the Branksome-Weymouth and Tonbridge-St Leonards lines in the mid-late 1980s I was a guard at Brighton and I can well remember a notice in the back of the Weekly Operating Notice asking staff to look out for and notify management of any spare lengths of conductor rail lying about anywhere on the Southern Region that could be used in these schemes to save money. IIRC, there was some kind of cash incentive - or perhaps a free holiday? - for the person who identified the greatest length of reusable second-hand conductor rail. I also recall reading about the experimental use of aluminium - instead of steel -conductor rail in order to save both costs and weight....although I have a feeling that that may have been part of the Portsmouth-Eastleigh/St Denys electrification scheme a few years later.
 

Magdalia

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Looking at the electrified lines such as Strood - Paddock Wood, I can't imagine that freight would have been a big factor in its survival.
In the Beeching era Strood-Paddock Wood was important for freight particularly cement works needing to get coal in and cement out.
 

Big Jumby 74

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I also recall reading about the experimental use of aluminium - instead of steel -conductor rail in order to save both costs and weight....although I have a feeling that that may have been part of the Portsmouth-Eastleigh/St Denys electrification scheme a few years later.
From the minutes of a meeting held in late '89, for the South Hants scheme, the said rail is referred to as 'Composite Conductor Rail', and there is brief mention of further staff consultation being needed in relation to the maintenance of same, so obviously not bog standard conductor rail at the time?
 

Snow1964

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If you want to see what a proper electrification scheme looked like, consider the Kent electrification scheme 1958-62.
The was element of expansion then, couple of sections were quadrupled as part of it, to allow faster trains to overtake.

The Bournemouth scheme did opposite, it reduced capacity. The 4 platforms at Micheldever were reduced to 2, the pre war rebuild of Pokesdown with fast tracks survived a few years, think it was rationalised around 1971 when Christchurch - Pokesdown section was resignalled (the pared down electrification had deferred some resignalling).
 

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A number of local bo9ks on railways around Bournemouth say it was partly due to a structural weakness in the older Bourne valley viaduct. The original curved 10 arch brick viaduct was built when the connecting line through Bournemouth Central was opened in 1888 which linked the extension of the Christchurch branch (which ran from near Ringwood via Hurn) from Bournemouth East to Bournemouth West.

Originally the electrification was planned on basis trains would continue to terminate at Bournemouth West. But because of the viaduct weakness the direct line was closed, instead the later 1893 built connecting line to Branksome got electrified instead. For completeness the station at Bournemouth West was also going to become rather underused with closure of Somerset and Dorset line, so Beeching cuts can also be blamed.

I have never found any reference to what the weakness was (the viaduct is still there). Although there are references to few nearby Luftwaffe bombs (probably dropped on aborted missions, or dumped by damaged planes as opportunity targets). Possibly the damaged viaduct was just a myth used as cover story as part of Bournemouth West closure and cutbacks to electrification.
The two viaducts were built at the same time, to the same design, by the same constructor and using similar materials. They did open to traffic in different years though, as the northern leg of the triangle only came fully into use when the line over Holes Bay opened.

As the former local history librarian for Bournemouth, I spoke with many local authors (railway and otherwise). I never heard anything about viaduct weakness at Branksome.

The viaducts may well have been German targets, as were the gasworks at Branksome. We did have some Luftwaffe maps of the area in our collection and various railway features were marked on it. Bournemouth was bombed in the war; many Allied officers were billeted in local hotels, though there is debate on whether the raid on the town was planned, rather than just bombers offloading their surplus before returning over the channel.
 
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