Royal Mail to cease using trains

[furnessvale]

Switzerland.

Swiss Post and the railways − an inseparable duo

Some years since I visited Switzerland, but do they still have a mail sorting van on smaller domestic trains? I remember scenes of the local posties meeting the train at local stations to exchange letters/parcels with the man on the train.

Infinitely preferable to the plethora of vans running up and down the A6 near me when there is a parallel train every hour.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It puzzles me that Royal Mail only opened DIRFT (Daventry International Rail Freight Terminal) not even a year ago with a dedicated rail connection and now they're going to cease using trains just over a year after the terminal opened. This decision must've been a long time coming, so DIRFT seems to become redundant almost immediately.

Isn't the rail terminal merely an adjunct to a new 'sorting office' that will continue in use and was set up to also receive and despatch large numbers of road vehicles anyway?

The rail terminal for Royal Mail was, in itself, essentially only a spur off a much larger classic intermodal container/swap-body terminal for other customers and operators.

So the proportion of the set-up that has become redundant (hopefully just for the time being) is actually quite modest.

 

[RT4038]

On the other hand, in Japan the launch of a service to carry parcels and freight on Shinkansen trains was so successful there is now talk of running freight-only trains.

Switzerland.

Swiss Post and the railways − an inseparable duo

So not many, whereas 80 years ago they all did (either by passenger train and/or dedicated mail trains). Now very, very few do- probably starting with the transfer of mail in the USA from rail to road/air in the early to mid-fifties.

Some years since I visited Switzerland, but do they still have a mail sorting van on smaller domestic trains? I remember scenes of the local posties meeting the train at local stations to exchange letters/parcels with the man on the train.

Infinitely preferable to the plethora of vans running up and down the A6 near me when there is a parallel train every hour.

Until you realise how much the price of stamps will go up to pay for it, and the delays to both rail and mail to accommodate. This movement away from rail across virtually the whole world has been to improve efficiency and cost effectiveness as the mail marketplace and competition has evolved over the intervening years.

 

[RT4038]

Paid for by the haulage firm, right? Well, one can dream.

The haulier's insurance company presumably, assuming it is known which haulier spilt it?

 

[furnessvale]

So not many, whereas 80 years ago they all did (either by passenger train and/or dedicated mail trains). Now very, very few do- probably starting with the transfer of mail in the USA from rail to road/air in the early to mid-fifties.


Until you realise how much the price of stamps will go up to pay for it, and the delays to both rail and mail to accommodate. This movement away from rail across virtually the whole world has been to improve efficiency and cost effectiveness as the mail marketplace and competition has evolved over the intervening years.

50% of all Swiss letters and parcels travel for at least part of their journey by rail.

Not sure if the second part of your comment answers my question about the use of small sorting vans, or a compartment on smaller trains, which was common on my last visit to CH.

 

[matacaster]

Isn't the rail terminal merely an adjunct to a new 'sorting office' that will continue in use and was set up to also receive and despatch large numbers of road vehicles anyway?

The rail terminal for Royal Mail was, in itself, essentially only a spur off a much larger classic intermodal container/swap-body terminal for other customers and operators.

So the proportion of the set-up that has become redundant (hopefully just for the time being) is actually quite modest.

Suggesting a rail connection often helps get a planning application approved. No guarantees the rail connection will ever get used though.

 

[swt_passenger]

It puzzles me that Royal Mail only opened DIRFT (Daventry International Rail Freight Terminal) not even a year ago with a dedicated rail connection and now they're going to cease using trains just over a year after the terminal opened. This decision must've been a long time coming, so DIRFT seems to become redundant almost immediately.

“DIRFT” is the name of the whole vast site. DIRFT opened progressively in a number of phases since about 30 years ago. The Royal Mail facility is a bit of a sideshow in the overall scheme, and will no doubt remain open anyway. Funnily enough over the years despite the ‘R for Rail’ in the shortened name, there have been a number of extensions to DIRFT that are not directly rail connected at all.

 

[Egg Centric]

It puzzles me that Royal Mail only opened DIRFT (Daventry International Rail Freight Terminal) not even a year ago with a dedicated rail connection and now they're going to cease using trains just over a year after the terminal opened. This decision must've been a long time coming, so DIRFT seems to become redundant almost immediately.

I might be misremembering but I think it was pointed out at the time that there would be practical difficulties in actually using it and so the running assumption was it was a "tick box" thing to get it through planning permission.

 

[Dr Hoo]

“DIRFT” is the name of the whole vast site. DIRFT opened progressively in a number of phases since about 30 years ago. The Royal Mail facility is a bit of a sideshow in the overall scheme, and will no doubt remain open anyway. Funnily enough over the years despite the ‘R for Rail’ in the shortened name, there have been a number of extensions to DIRFT that are not directly rail connected at all.

It was never the intention or expectation that every ‘shed’ would have its own rail siding.
The complex is set up as ‘private property’ so that internal movement ‘tugs’ can move containers between the rail terminals and tenants. This is quite a different operating model to having HGVs transferring boxes to and from facilities elsewhere in the Golden Triangle, which have rather higher costs.
There is nothing to stop Royal Mail ‘shunting’ boxes to/from other rail terminals at DIRFT, including the one literally ‘next door’ if that becomes more cost effective.
The business of hauling the Class 325s with a main line locomotive for the ‘last/first mile’ never struck me as being very efficient.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

So not many, whereas 80 years ago they all did (either by passenger train and/or dedicated mail trains). Now very, very few do- probably starting with the transfer of mail in the USA from rail to road/air in the early to mid-fifties.

Movement of mail by rail in the US using Railway Post Offices (RPO) for the most part ended in 1967 due to the Postal Service movement towards centralized mechanized sorting centers, many of them built in locations only accessible by road. The New York and Washington RPO did last until 1977, running over the Northeast Corridor.

The loss of mail contracts was the final nail in the coffin for many passenger trains in the US which at the time were still run by the private railroad companies and was one of the events that started the move towards a national rail passenger system.

 

[ac6000cw]

Movement of mail by rail in the US using Railway Post Offices (RPO) for the most part ended in 1967 due to the Postal Service movement towards centralized mechanized sorting centers, many of them built in locations only accessible by road. The New York and Washington RPO did last until 1977, running over the Northeast Corridor.

The loss of mail contracts was the final nail in the coffin for many passenger trains in the US which at the time were still run by the private railroad companies and was one of the events that started the move towards a national rail passenger system.

AFAIK, the US Postal Service does still move some of it's traffic by rail, in domestic containers and piggyback trailers on intermodal freight trains. UPS, DHL and FedEx do the same where it makes sense - which is basically the long distance, not so time-sensitive traffic where rail haulage is much cheaper than air freight and can be cheaper/faster than trucking it.

Over a long distance, a 70 mph top speed high-priority intermodal train with plenty of power up front can manage quite a high average speed if it's kept rolling.

 

[Masbroughlad]

In the days before internal markets and privatisation......

When mail trains ran on British Rail, did anybody pay? Or were they just part of nationally provided services? (Similarly did state owned coal and steel trains actually pay BR?).

Interested more than anything and think it's relevant? With situations where markets have evolved, will private companies interfacing with each other, ever choose rail over road? (with the current set up). I know full load trains with massive loads work - Tesco etc.

I know we lost Speedlink and Ed Burkhardt promised wagon load trains again. Will those days ever return?

Apologies if too much off topic and needs moving?

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Royal Mail did pay BR. Just looking at the 1961 Annual Report (so immediately pre-Beeching) combined Mail and Postal Parcels were around 4% of total receipts.

Most mail was carried in the brake vans of passenger trains that were running ‘anyway’. The Travelling Post Offices were high profile but actually quite a modest element of the total task.

 

[Adrian Barr]

Can anyone confirm how much use DIRFT Royal Mail has seen since it opened?

When it first opened, it started with a daily return service from Shieldmuir to Daventry (1M36 / 1S05)

Recently a second daily return service from Shieldmuir to Daventry started (1M55 / 1S55), at the same time as the east coast services to Low Fell ceased.

The timings and headcodes of the remaining mail services changed quite a bit, and it's noticeable how much earlier in the day most of the services are running compared to the historical use of mail trains. Apart from 1S55 20:44 Daventry - Shieldmuir, arriving around 2am, the other class 1 mail services are all scheduled to complete their journeys by around 21:00.

This possibly reflects the switch of emphasis from letters to parcels traffic and using the trains mainly as a bulk carrier, rather than the traditional late-night network of tight connections for 1st class post... and a far cry from the days of the Travelling Post Office trains.

The business of hauling the Class 325s with a main line locomotive for the ‘last/first mile’ never struck me as being very efficient.

The shunt move between the reception sidings and the mail terminal at DIRFT is now hauled by a class 08. I think it was always the original intention to use the local Daventry pilot loco, but some issue or other when the services started caused the movement to switch to using a class 66 for quite a while.

The bottom part of this post (discussing changes to Royal Mail services) has links to some good pictures on the DIRFT branch: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ecml-mail-trains.269420/post-6831561

I suspect the Daventry trains have a good chance of switching to other operators (maybe Varamis) and hopefully the Willesden PRDC traffic too, if the price is right.

The use of containers is a possibility, but at the Scottish end it would probably mean road-hauling them from somewhere like Mossend to their Scottish Distribution Centre, rather than the convenience of offloading a train from the platform adjacent to it at Shieldmuir.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In the days before internal markets and privatisation......

When mail trains ran on British Rail, did anybody pay? Or were they just part of nationally provided services? (Similarly did state owned coal and steel trains actually pay BR?).

Interested more than anything and think it's relevant? With situations where markets have evolved, will private companies interfacing with each other, ever choose rail over road? (with the current set up). I know full load trains with massive loads work - Tesco etc.

I know we lost Speedlink and Ed Burkhardt promised wagon load trains again. Will those days ever return?

Apologies if too much off topic and needs moving?

The BR and later RES services were highly commercial and warranted a lot of senior and other management attention , and I believe the Post Office had the right to access any passenger train for mails , hence the every day sight of post staff in attendance nationwide to load and unload mail bags , neccesitating considerable augmentation especially in the peak carrying periods around Christmas , with extra workings , often using for example 4EPB sets with seat bases reversed in an attempt to keep the upholstery decent. (ditto 501 sets on my later much loved DC to and from Watford - and even 313's later and Southern 455's out of Waterloo) Even the Heart of Wales line did it's bit - with Cross Country sets towing some parcel vehicles as tail traffic. Often the interiors were invaded by mail bags , as I recall on Winters morning boarding at Ammanford in the dark to find only one car in passenger service as the rest of the 2 car was filled to the roof with mail bags. Some years later I got a Xmas mail job and delighted to be allocated to Swansea High St to assist the seasonal rush. Although there were "premium parcels" extras to London formed of 37 + 3 vans , the inward HST workings had the guards compartment leading on arrival packed with mail bags to the roof , and with a bit late running , we were entreated to get everything unloaded in the available turn round and as much as we could despatched away. Could be quite a scramble at times but we always managed it and got some priority bags away ......(quite a dirty job too !) .......

There were special mail workings in the season from Watford Junction to Euston via the DC - specially for Harrow and Wealdstone - at the latter - shunted via the 2 then extant turn backs (under mechanical ex LNW mini-semaphores) - and then departing under hand signals from the Leading Railman out of the turnback to the down DC platform where a veritable army of GPO staff attacked it with Harrows postal forwrardings (think Kodak which was local and a big customer) - then under signals back to the turn backs , change ends and forward to Euston. All done with little delay to the normal electric service.

 

[AndrewE]

There were special mail workings in the season from Watford Junction to Euston via the DC - specially for Harrow and Wealdstone - at the latter - shunted via the 2 then extant turn backs (under mechanical ex LNW mini-semaphores) - and then departing under hand signals from the Leading Railman out of the turnback to the down DC platform where a veritable army of GPO staff attacked it with Harrows postal forwrardings (think Kodak which was local and a big customer) - then under signals back to the turn backs , change ends and forward to Euston. All done with little delay to the normal electric service.

that was the "can do" railway...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

that was the "can do" railway...

Very much so , and in the case of this Harrow working , the staff enjoyed a little variation to the daily grind. In my experience "the mails" were often given priority - even with late running now and then and the departure "tick" sheets often quoted "xx mins delay to XXX due to loading mails" ........justifiable delay.

 

[Tester]

Very much so , and in the case of this Harrow working , the staff enjoyed a little variation to the daily grind. In my experience "the mails" were often given priority - even with late running now and then and the departure "tick" sheets often quoted "xx mins delay to XXX due to loading mails" ........justifiable delay.

The last down DC was booked 7 minutes at Harrow (0024-0031) for mail - I often used to catch it.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The last down DC was booked 7 minutes at Harrow (0024-0031) for mail - I often used to catch it.

Handily timed to get late postings into a selection of northbound services at Watford Junction......!

 

[Irascible]

Should be interesting to see exactly what they end up doing - the air side has already been pared down to the bare minimum ( will also be interesting to see if anyone takes on the unused ground facilities ) and now it looks like the rail infrastructure is going too. I won't repeat what my contact from the air op had to say about the reasonings behind this but I don't think the delivery side of things is where they *really* wanted to make cuts...

 

[En]

Should be interesting to see exactly what they end up doing - the air side has already been pared down to the bare minimum ( will also be interesting to see if anyone takes on the unused ground facilities ) and now it looks like the rail infrastructure is going too. I won't repeat what my contact from the air op had to say about the reasonings behind this but I don't think the delivery side of things is where they *really* wanted to make cuts...

a cynic would suggest putting as much of the work onto the road or into ordinary ISO boxes is preparing for a 'partnership' with a 'logistics expert' ...

 

[43066]

A great pity - and of course worrying for DB employees for whom there has been a fair bit of bad news over the last few years.

 

[Stampy]

a cynic would suggest putting as much of the work onto the road or into ordinary ISO boxes is preparing for a 'partnership' with a 'logistics expert' ...

I wouldn't put it past them, according to a friend who works for RM.

They're finding ways of getting rid of staff who are on a Permanent Contract and getting Agency in instead on a ZERO-HOUR contract.... (a-la P&O from a few years back)

 

[En]

View attachment 161767

I wouldn't put it past them, according to a friend who works for RM.

They're finding ways of getting rid of staff who are on a Permanent Contract and getting Agency in instead on a ZERO-HOUR contract.... (a-la P&O from a few years back)

RM /PFW have long standing form on that ( over a decade)

 

[Skimpot flyer]

RM had a preference exercise 18 months ago, asking staff if they would like to take voluntary redundancy, now capped at a maximum of 9 months salary regardless of length of service.
Some did take the opportunity to leave. Now there are indeed agency staff and new recruits doing the same work as those that left. The new directly-employed staff are on inferior terms and conditions, something the bitter pay dispute was REALLY about (not pay alone)…

 

[mpthomson]

a cynic would suggest putting as much of the work onto the road or into ordinary ISO boxes is preparing for a 'partnership' with a 'logistics expert' ...

Also worth noting in this context that RM are also significantly reducing the amount of mail/parcels moved by air.

 

[Trackman]

Do the 325's still have DC shoes? I'm guessing not - if so, is it a case of just replacing them?

 

[Invincible]

MPs want to talk to RM management

MPs hit back as Royal Mail axes all postal trains

The move sparked fierce opposition from unions, politicians and freight industry leaders over concerns about jobs.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

Conservative MP for Daventry Stuart Andrew said it was a 'very worrying development'.

Royal Mail's Midlands 'super hub' at Daventry International Rail Freight Terminal opened in his constituency last year.

Sadly don't think it will change Royal mail's plans?

 

[HSTEd]

MPs want to talk to RM management

MPs hit back as Royal Mail axes all postal trains

The move sparked fierce opposition from unions, politicians and freight industry leaders over concerns about jobs.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

Well if Parliament wanted Royal Mail to continue using rail services, maybe they shouldn't have sold it off....... (and yes I know most politicians from that era are gone now, but at the same time both major parties repeatedly attempted to sell it through the 1990s and 2000s).

But if 15 4-car units can be replaced with only the creation of "30 full-time driving jobs"..... I do question how intensively the fleet is actually operating.

 

[12LDA28C]

Do the 325's still have DC shoes? I'm guessing not - if so, is it a case of just replacing them?

Pretty sure they were removed years ago.