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CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

Diedinium

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Only if CAF sort out the availability issues.
On this note I'd like to add a bit of a rumour I've heard internally; part of the reason the Cambrian 197 rollout will be delayed is because of lot of the ERTMS fitted 197s have been cannibalised for spare parts as CAF are having a lot more parts break than they expected, and delays in ordering new ones. So of course all the 197s they have sat around in sidings at Donnington etc were an obvious place to source these from in the interim.

So until all these parts are replaced with newly ordered stuff that's another thing blocking most of the ERTMS fitted 197 fleet from going into service.
 
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Krokodil

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Wouldn't surprise me. There are lots of 3 car units running around with only two working engines, because bits of the drivetrain of the centre car have been robbed to keep as many units in service as possible.
 

Driver TLST

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It’s probably not the right thread but there are 197’s fitted with it so we will stretch it haha.

The Method of work that we use, and this is on a single line where the system has replaced token signalling, is that at designated stations which are passing points / the old token exchange points or terminus stations such as Welshpool, Newtown, Aberystwyth where the guard would traditionally have to check a signal for a proceed aspect, then once the driver has a Movement Authority (MA) displayed on the in-cab display then they give ‘2’ on the buzzer and the guard can only dispatch once they have received this.

Having worked both sides, I can’t see any advantage for the guard. You have to be listening out for the buzzer which when busy or you have to do something else can be Easily missed. We are taught that if you’re unsure to check with the driver and no driver I know would take issue it. But the problem comes when you don’t realise you’ve not had 2 or that you think you’ve had it but perhaps that was the last stop. So if you do start to Make a mistake there is no glaring red signal that might just cause you Stop what you’re doing. Or even as part of the dispatch procedure under conventional signalling I was taught that once you’ve closed the doors always double check the starting signal just before you get back on the train (and has saved me once) which you also can’t do under ERTMS.

Among train crew it is generally regarded as not ideal but not really much other choice.

And I don’t believe there is any planned change for this MOW when the 197’s come into use.
Thanks so much for this detailed reply. Its a very interesting answer and intriguing to understand the impacts of ETCS L2 on other operational crew, other than the drivers. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
 

Lurcheroo

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It does indeed work in Level 0. Speedo turns yellow and an alarm sounds if you try going too far past 75
Oh ok cool! On Level 2 we get yellow when we approach a speed reduction or end of authority showing us the ‘curve’ that we just reduce speed in line with. 3K over and we get orange and then I think it’s 4 or 5K we get red with an ‘overspeed’ message and then it applies step 3 brake to bring us down under the permitted speed.

Only if CAF sort out the availability issues.
I suppose the good thing is that it had been prove the 2 can run together so it will be possible the phase the 197’s in instead of having to do a full overnight swap.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think of the 20 158's booked for service 3 of them are booked for other routes away the Cambrian/Birmingham's, or at least thats what used to happen. I think one still does Cardiff-Holyhead and the other 2 are just used as spares and often turn up on services around South Wales to Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Manchester and Chester etc (all 3 used to have booked workings in South Wales across a 3 day cycle before returning North). So i imagine 21 197s for the Cambrian will be fine to include some for maintenance.
As someone said above too, the unit that starts at Crewe and then attaches to 1I04 to Birmingham doesn’t make it on the Cambrian at all finishing at Holyhead that night.

So, during the summer when they plan to run the hourly service on the mainline and 2 4 car services on the coast I think the highest number of units required (at a specific point in time) would be 14 between all of the Cambrian and Birmingham (assuming that no ERTMS units are going between Birmingham and Holyhead). So there does seem some scope for ERTMS units to be on diagrams that do venture away from the Cambrian a little.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thanks so much for this detailed reply. Its a very interesting answer and intriguing to understand the impacts of ETCS L2 on other operational crew, other than the drivers. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
You’re most welcome. Glad I could be of help.
 
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sd0733

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Not a great night for 197s, The Marches has been blocked at Pontrilas for over 90 minutes and counting by the failure of a pair of 197s on the 16:36 Holyhead to Cardiff.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Not a great night for 197s, The Marches has been blocked at Pontrilas for over 90 minutes and counting by the failure of a pair of 197s on the 16:36 Holyhead to Cardiff.
Do we know if one failed or both simultaneously? Law of averages suggests the former, likely the leading one. Stock fails all the time, I personally wouldn't call the leading one failing a bad day considering how often stock fails. I'm saying this as someone with serious reservations about the TfW stock plan
 

sd0733

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Do we know if one failed or both simultaneously? Law of averages suggests the former, likely the leading one. Stock fails all the time, I personally wouldn't call the leading one failing a bad day considering how often stock fails. I'm saying this as someone with serious reservations about the TfW stock plan
Failure was downplaying it somewhat! Smoke was reported from 197116 and fire brigade attendance was required hence the block of the line in both directions.

Was finally able to limp on to Cardiff arriving almost 4 hours late.
 
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Russel

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Failure was downplaying it somewhat! Smoke was reported from 197116 and fire brigade attendance was required hence the block of the line in both directions.

Was finally able to limp on to Cardiff arriving almost 4 hours late.

The 197's really are the natural successor to the 175's then...
 

Anonymous10

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Failure was downplaying it somewhat! Smoke was reported from 197116 and fire brigade attendance was required hence the block of the line in both directions.

Was finally able to limp on to Cardiff arriving almost 4 hours late.
Let's hope it's a one off and not a regular occurrence.
 

BillStampy

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Failure was downplaying it somewhat! Smoke was reported from 197116 and fire brigade attendance was required hence the block of the line in both directions.

Was finally able to limp on to Cardiff arriving almost 4 hours late.
116 struggling to get North, failed at Cwmbran yesterday and is currently turned around at Newport headed towards Canton again after attempting to run empty to Chester
 

sd0733

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116 struggling to get North, failed at Cwmbran yesterday and is currently turned around at Newport headed towards Canton again after attempting to run empty to Chester
Seems that both it, and 197002 which it's now with are both rather poorly. Unable to get anywhere near line speed and multiple faults! Hopefully a way is found of getting them back to Chester.
 

Anonymous10

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Seems that both it, and 197002 which it's now with are both rather poorly. Unable to get anywhere near line speed and multiple faults! Hopefully a way is found of getting them back to Chester.
Maybe it'd be better to use a 37 they're using to move the 175s and tow them north :lol: .
 

simonmpoulton

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Travelled on a pair of these from Crewe to Chester yesterday for the first time - was I on a faulty unit or do they really ride so poorly over the track between Crewe and Chester? It was bouncing around shaking from side to side and the engine vibration and noise when the unit was stationary was horrendous. I can't say i've noticed this when travelling between Chester and Manchester on them previously. To me seemed no better than when i've been on a 150 between Crewe and Chester and worse than a 158/175.
 

Lurcheroo

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Travelled on a pair of these from Crewe to Chester yesterday for the first time - was I on a faulty unit or do they really ride so poorly over the track between Crewe and Chester? It was bouncing around shaking from side to side and the engine vibration and noise when the unit was stationary was horrendous. I can't say i've noticed this when travelling between Chester and Manchester on them previously. To me seemed no better than when i've been on a 150 between Crewe and Chester and worse than a 158/175.
Yeah they’re pretty bumpy, over that section from the few trips I recall.
The engine vibration shouldn’t be that bad when idling though.
 

craigybagel

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Travelled on a pair of these from Crewe to Chester yesterday for the first time - was I on a faulty unit or do they really ride so poorly over the track between Crewe and Chester? It was bouncing around shaking from side to side and the engine vibration and noise when the unit was stationary was horrendous. I can't say i've noticed this when travelling between Chester and Manchester on them previously. To me seemed no better than when i've been on a 150 between Crewe and Chester and worse than a 158/175.
A lot of units ride poorly over that particularly route - it's pretty rough for a 90mph line - but 197s are particularly unforgiving of poor track in general unfortunately.

If it's any comfort it's even worse in the cab of a 67.....
 

Jez

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I cant say I noticed the ride quality being particularly bad between Chester and Crewe but ive only been on that line once on a 197.

The place where ive found the ride quality to be bad is between Llanelli and Carmarthen on a 197 particularly the bit around Pembrey. Has anyone else found that? Also the Conwy Valley but only been once on a 197 and as far as Betws Y Coed only.
 

Western 52

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I cant say I noticed the ride quality being particularly bad between Chester and Crewe but ive only been on that line once on a 197.

The place where ive found the ride quality to be bad is between Llanelli and Carmarthen on a 197 particularly the bit around Pembrey. Has anyone else found that? Also the Conwy Valley but only been once on a 197 and as far as Betws Y Coed only.
Yes very bad round the Llanelli and Burry Port areas, but can be quite rough through Llandeilo Jn!
 

Richard Scott

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A lot of units ride poorly over that particularly route - it's pretty rough for a 90mph line - but 197s are particularly unforgiving of poor track in general unfortunately.

If it's any comfort it's even worse in the cab of a 67.....
At least you're likely to be being paid to be in a 67 whereas we're paying for privilege of being in a 197!!!!
 

Lurcheroo

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At least you're likely to be being paid to be in a 67 whereas we're paying for privilege of being in a 197!!!!
He does get paid, but in Snickers and coffee ;) those of us who don’t sign 67’s only get paid in euro shopper chocolate bars and energy drinks (wouldn’t even give me the white chocolate bars:'().
 

craigybagel

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He does get paid, but in Snickers and coffee ;) those of us who don’t sign 67’s only get paid in euro shopper chocolate bars and energy drinks (wouldn’t even give me the white chocolate bars:'().
It's a brave driver who combines coffee and 67s :lol:

But yeah, I think it's fair given how many people have commented on it to say the 197s are rather sensitive to rough track - and despite being exclusively CWR, the Crewe - Chester line is pretty rough.
 

Lurcheroo

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It's a brave driver who combines coffee and 67s :lol:

But yeah, I think it's fair given how many people have commented on it to say the 197s are rather sensitive to rough track - and despite being exclusively CWR, the Crewe - Chester line is pretty rough.
I have heard to be fair haha!

Oh yes definitely! I can’t remember if I have said this on here or not but we have a few bits of insanely rough track on the Cambrian, it’s violent at 60mph even on a 158. one the DI’s that was involved with testing the 197’s on the Cambrian said that when testing them, the CAF engineers wanted him to stop the train at one point because they thought the train had de-railed! And they shook all sorts loose, including a headlight.

Lots of the sections have been re-laid with CWR, especially some of the faster sections, with more planned in a block early next year I believe and I’m fully convinced it’s because of 197’s.
 

craigybagel

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I have heard to be fair haha!

Oh yes definitely! I can’t remember if I have said this on here or not but we have a few bits of insanely rough track on the Cambrian, it’s violent at 60mph even on a 158. one the DI’s that was involved with testing the 197’s on the Cambrian said that when testing them, the CAF engineers wanted him to stop the train at one point because they thought the train had de-railed! And they shook all sorts loose, including a headlight.

Lots of the sections have been re-laid with CWR, especially some of the faster sections, with more planned in a block early next year I believe and I’m fully convinced it’s because of 197’s.
Is there any jointed track left on the mainline or is it all up the coast? Not had an excuse for a jolly down the Cambrian for a couple of years.
 

Bikeman78

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It's a brave driver who combines coffee and 67s :lol:

But yeah, I think it's fair given how many people have commented on it to say the 197s are rather sensitive to rough track - and despite being exclusively CWR, the Crewe - Chester line is pretty rough.
You have reminded me of the Dutch 1100s. They were shocking. Last one I had was from Venlo to Den Haag in the late 90s. At Eindhoven, the relief driver walked past, coffee in hand. Dad and I looked at each other and burst out laughing.

Regarding 197s, there is a rough patch between Caldicot and Chepstow. The whole coach shudders and rattles. Never noticed that on a 150, 158, 170 or HST.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Regarding 197s, there is a rough patch between Caldicot and Chepstow. The whole coach shudders and rattles. Never noticed that on a 150, 158, 170 or HST.
Yeah its around Mathern and it feels worse heading east bound. I did notice it on a 175 but it was the yaw on them
 

Lurcheroo

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Is there any jointed track left on the mainline or is it all up the coast? Not had an excuse for a jolly down the Cambrian for a couple of years.
There are only a few sections left up to Mach, then to Aber there is still lots, the entirety of ‘Borth bog’ between Dovey junction and north is jointed until Ynslas AHBC.
The coast is mostly jointed with CWR in a few places, mostly where the sea has washed the line away and been rebuilt like LlanAber and Afon wen
 

Topological

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Anyone know what went wrong with 115 just now, had to change off it to get a 2-car to continue the 18:30 ex-Manchester diagram. Fine except the train was already quite full when we pulled in. That and control had told the guard the continuation would be on 12, it was only because RTT said 8 that I was able to get the right one while there were still seats.

Recalling this is long term a Mk4 journey...
 

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