Royal Mail to cease using trains

[DJH1971]

Oof, wonder what'll happen to the stock and paths.

Most probably heading to Simms

 

[MrJeeves]

Gawd only knows how much that would cost with royal mail

Ahem... nothing.

https://www.royalmail.com/collection

 

[D365]

Most probably heading to Simms

There is a discussion in the speculative subforum for what might happen to the Class 325 fleet.

 

[Towers]

Interesting that the DB statement mentions the cost of traction current having been cited as a factor here. Only recently we had Freightliner parking electric locos in favour of using diesel as the fuel was cheaper than paying to draw power from the OHLE, is that still an issue in general? Presumably even if RM had looked at loco haulage the additional costs of hiring the loco would outweigh any savings made per train?

 

[ac6000cw]

IIRC VGA vans have been used for special Christmas mail services in the past, maybe this is the way forward? RM rail depots would seem to be better set up for side-loading wagons as opposed to containers.

If RM used containers/swap bodies they could be transferred to/from road at a suitable rail-connected container terminal and then go to/from any of the RM depots - they don't have to be restricted to the directly rail-served depots. And there's a whole existing network of intermodal trains they could be carried on...

 

[dk1]

It was a huge shock when Railnet was withdrawn from its almost national network over 20 years ago. This however is on a much smaller scale but will be a shame to see the red 325s operating on the WCML.

 

[The Planner]

Interesting that the DB statement mentions the cost of traction current having been cited as a factor here. Only recently we had Freightliner parking electric locos in favour of using diesel as the fuel was cheaper than paying to draw power from the OHLE, is that still an issue in general? Presumably even if RM had looked at loco haulage the additional costs of hiring the loco would outweigh any savings made per train?

They would have to be 90s or 67s, 325 paths are generally pretty much passenger paths.

 

[geordieblue]

If RM used containers/swap bodies they could be transferred to/from road at a suitable rail-connected container terminal and then go to/from any of the RM depots - they don't have to be restricted to the directly rail-served depots. And there's a whole existing network of intermodal trains they could be carried on...

Just seems odd that RM have recently invested in side-loading infrastructure (Daventry) when a stacking pad would have been significantly cheaper - plenty of intermodal going out of Daventry already. Obviously speculation on my part but it does seem a slightly strange decision considering that the condition of the 325s will have been known for some time.

 

[sprinterguy]

I thought Royal Mail scrapped its rail operations in early 2004 (when it was still in the Public sector), before bringing them back later the same year?

Glad someone brought it up, as my first thought was "What, again?".

Though, despite dramatic headlines in the lead up, and an admittedly drastic cut in the number and nature of services, the move away from rail twenty years ago did seem quite transitory. There didn't seem to be much time between the last EWS operated train from Low Fell and the first GBRf operated WCML service.

Watching the regular 5pm-ish northbound mail working through Stafford again the other day, I did idly wonder what Royal Mail's approach would be to replacing the now ageing (though still seemingly new to me) 325s. I guess my suspicions have been confirmed.

 

[DanNCL]

Royal Mail are pulling out of rail to save money. No competitor is going to switch to rail because they want to spend more!

A secondary issue is also if a train is late it delays millions of items of Mail. If a lorry is late it's "only" a few thousand. So it's unlikely anyone else is interested.

Clearly people are willing to switch to rail as otherwise Varamis wouldn’t be doing as well as they are.

 

[HSTEd]

Given the train is derived from a hybrid Class 319 and Networker, it probably doesn't have that much internal volume.

Given the low densities of parcels and other mail I expect it would be replaceable with a smaller number of modern lorries than you might expect.
A 12-car formation is still only ~240m long at the end of the day.

EDIT: 240m long, ~2.8m wide and 3.78m tall. CAll it ~2.5m space between the floor and the roofline if we generously assume the cross section is square.

240 x 2.8 x 2.5 = 1680 cubic metres

A modern trailer might have ~2.5m internal width, 13.6m internal length and ~3.7m internal height (for a 4.8m tall vehicle).
2.5m x 13.6 x 3.7m = 125.8 cubic metres

It's only about 13 lorries, and thats if we ignore all the internal fittings in a Class 325 above the floor deck and assume it has a square cross section.

 

[DanNCL]

Given the low densities of parcels and other mail I expect it would be replaceable with a smaller number of modern lorries than you might expect.
A 12-car formation is still only ~240m long at the end of the day.

Modern artic lorries are usually 16.5m in length. If we assume the lorry is the same width and height as a 325, that would require 15 lorries to move the same amount of mail as a single 12-car consist of 325s.
In reality the lorries are taller so it would more likely be 13 or 14 lorries.

 

[najaB]

It's only about 13 lorries, and thats if we ignore all the internal fittings in a Class 325 above the floor deck and assume it has a square cross section.

True. But at the same time that's 13 drivers rather than one.

 

[Peter0124]

True. But at the same time that's 13 drivers rather than one.

And also a lot more CO2 emissions.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Amazon?

 

[HSTEd]

True. But at the same time that's 13 drivers rather than one.

The drivers are only one small piece of the operation of course.

Those 13 drivers can drive from up to 13 depots to up to up to 13 depots, and potentially avoids doubling handling of the goods in doing so.

 

[najaB]

The drivers are only one small piece of the operation of course.

Those 13 drivers can drive from up to 13 depots to up to 13 depots, and potentially avoids doubling handlings of the goods in doing so.

But for Royal Mail, there are large flows between a small number of depots. Which will mean 13 lorries making exactly the same journey, one behind the other.

Now, maybe they could join the lorries up head to tail, and then they'd only need one driver...

 

[redreni]

Ideological nonsense. It was public sector owned Royal Mail that stopped using rail for a period back in the early 2000s.

And that wasn't in the national interest. If a nationalised industry does something that's not in the national interest, the shareholder can tell it to do the thing that is in the national interest. It might not do so, for all kinds of reasons, but it can. If it doesn't that's partly our fault for not using the democratic system to apply sufficient pressure to the government not to allow a nationalised industry to behave in a way that stops the UK achieving its climate commitments.

I prefer that to a situation where the government is not the shareholder so has no say in the matter.

 

[HSTEd]

But for Royal Mail, there are large flows between a small number of depots. Which will mean 13 lorries making exactly the same journey, one behind the other.

Now, maybe they could join the lorries up head to tail, and then they'd only need one driver...

At least in 2019, Royal Mail had 37 delivery depots.
That is a possible 1332 different combinations of traffic.

It is likely (Although I have no direct evidence of this) that mail was being moved from a depot to the rail-served depot, with the reverse occurring at the other end.

EDIT:
And even if there are 13 lorries making the same journey, one behind the other, the lorries can leave as soon as they are filled, rather than everyone scrambling to load all the mail going to the destination today before any of it can move.
That then causes problems for the sorting and delivery machinery at the other end, and waste precious hours that Royal Mail can't afford if it wants to avoid huge fines for breaching delivery targets.

 

[dk1]

Is this all done and dusted or could it be a ploy for government subsidy by the new owner?

 

[Bill57p9]

Now, maybe they could join the lorries up head to tail, and then they'd only need one driver...

And then optimise the operation by having a single tractor unit towing multiple trailers, and then reducing friction by replacing the tyres/tarmac interface with metal wheels on metal.
Then it could be electrified using overhead wires to help RM towards their net zero ambition.

Hang on a minute...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

In any event, you could strip the 325s back so much that they essentially just become very simple coaching stock and stick a loco on the front - not that difficult.

The 325s were designed to be loco hauled away from overhead electrified lines, hence the buggers and drophead couplers.

 

[D7666]

hence the buggers and drophead couplers.

REALLY ?

 

[MarkyT]

In contrast to the DB statement, that from RM explained the intent to continue with a mix of road, air & rail. They confirm they don't want to continue using their own cl.325 units anymore however. There could be opportunities for more rail use even than now with new operators if contracts were attractive. In addition to the rolling stock issue, I suspect the falling out could be over the terms of the DB contract in how they pass on fluctuations in energy prices. The prospective new RM owner knows a thing about the energy sector as his company owns 49% of the Slovakian national pipeline operator that is the predominant importer of Russian gas to Eastern Europe, and has profited massively from recent price rises. He also owns some UK electricity generation capacity (gas & biomass). He made his initial fortune buying up post-communist state assets, not in their original privatisation rounds, but amassing controlling stakes cheaply from (possibly) naive investors later. Fossil fuel assets are heavily represented in his portfolio and he has recently been acquiring media and sports interests (Le Monde and West Ham for example).

 

[YorkRailFan]

Amazon?

If prices to operate these trains are too expensive for Royal Mail, they'll certainly be too much for Amazon who prefer the cheapest option possible.

 

[Chester1]

I am guessing Royal Mail has a nostalgia appeal for people of a certain age. Its 2024 not 1994. Royal Mail is a private sector parcel operator with a universal letter business on the side. The universal letter service is continuing to shrink as more bills move online. Its propped up by junk mail. The bar coded stamps are another step towards the letter service being something in between a traditional stamp and a courier service. Sounds like the WCML will get some much needed breathing space in its timetable.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I am guessing Royal Mail has a nostalgia appeal for people of a certain age. Its 2024 not 1994. Royal Mail is a private sector parcel operator with a universal letter business on the side. The universal letter service is continuing to shrink as more bills move online. Its propped up by junk mail. The bar coded stamps are another step towards the letter service being something in between a traditional stamp and a courier service. Sounds like the WCML will get some much needed breathing space in its timetable.

Makes virtually no difference to WCML, tiny number of trains.

These trains aren't moving letters, they're predominantly moving parcels, which are increasing in volume and profitability for Royal Mail.

 

[En]

IIRC VGA vans have been used for special Christmas mail services in the past, maybe this is the way forward? RM rail depots would seem to be better set up for side-loading wagons as opposed to containers.

within the ISO container format there is considerable freedom as long as the self supporting structure, dimensions of the 'box' and locations of the locking cubes on the corners are adhered to. side doors / rollers perfectly possible as long as they stay within the envelope

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

At least in 2019, Royal Mail had 37 delivery depots.
That is a possible 1332 different combinations of traffic.

It is likely (Although I have no direct evidence of this) that mail was being moved from a depot to the rail-served depot, with the reverse occurring at the other end.

EDIT:
And even if there are 13 lorries making the same journey, one behind the other, the lorries can leave as soon as they are filled, rather than everyone scrambling to load all the mail going to the destination today before any of it can move.
That then causes problems for the sorting and delivery machinery at the other end, and waste precious hours that Royal Mail can't afford if it wants to avoid huge fines for breaching delivery targets.

this is a big factor
quite a few years ago now i worked in the PFW hub at Coventry for a few months , there were various of the larger PFW local depots that had 3 or 4 trailers a night , and they would go at perhaps 2200, 0000, 0130 and end of play( approx 0300 +/- 40 minutes depending on volumes) there were also tricks with the later dispatches for Scotland and the West Country going in several 3.5 tonne vans as theywere not tied to driving hours in the way ( i.e. 4.5 hours driving means you MUST take a full 45 minute break that a 7.5t / 17t or artic were.


I 've also worked for large retailer and when there wasa significant product launch ( e.g. Nintendo Switch, major game titles , new Iphone or new S series Samsung phone ) there would be additional earlier in the day trailers from the courier used to get the parcels into their system and sorted rather than just loading scanned ( and for games etc there would be additional RM trailer as well as the low cost shipping for some items was via RM parcels )

 

[alf]

I believe I read on the forum years ago that the freehold of the RM distribution site at Wembley belongs to Network Rail & is leased to RM subject to it “using rail to move traffic from the site”.
Apparently that is all the contract says.
It does not specify the number & length of the trains, whether they run daily & how far they go.
Does anyone know anything about this?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes. I wonder what the new Labour Government might do about this.

Well DB are saying its the EC4T charges that are hurting them and can't understand why NR hasn't just been told to give them the same deal as all the TOCs are under rather than being left exposed to the variable cost.

 

[DarloRich]

very sad news - seems a short sighted decision.