CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[craigybagel]

At the moment nobody who's in a position to comment publicly here knows what the timetable plans for the Cambrian are, and how the ERTMS fitted 197s will be deployed. All we can do is speculate.

Speaking of which, as I've mentioned previously I've been led to believe the ERTMS fitted 197s will work differently on non -ERTMS fitted lines then how the 158s currently work in Level 0. No regular drivers have been trained yet on the differences with the ERTMS fitted sets - the level of training required and the depots that get trained will be a good indicator of whether or not those units can be used away from Cambrian - Birmingham services.

 

[Krokodil]

At the moment nobody who's in a position to comment publicly here knows what the timetable plans for the Cambrian are, and how the ERTMS fitted 197s will be deployed. All we can do is speculate.

Somehow I doubt that even those involved in long-term planning (as in years ahead, not just LTP timetables) actually know for sure what the future will hold.

 

[Caaardiff]

There's only 20 diagrams out of the 24 158's in the fleet allowing for 4 to be stopped, which to be fair is a regular occurance. There is only one stopped on B exam at a time which is a 2 day exam. A exams are done overnight in between service.
Previously any 158 shortages on their booked routes were usually covered by other 15x fleet, but a stop has been put to that now.

With the 197 ERTM's fleet, as they are still effectively the same units, then ERTM's 197s could well often be seen covering on non-ERTM's routes. But the long term fleet numbers will be very different once all the 197's are in service and working on the routes they were planned for, so the need to substitute on other routes would be minimal, but not out of the question. Shortage of non-ERTM's 197s will probably just lead to short forms.

 

[Lurcheroo]

There is another bridge to cross before we even begin to see drivers getting trained on the 197’s on the Cambrian.
Currently, instructors have a laptop which they can plug in on the non-driving side to replicate the DMI and see what the trainee see’s, which is pretty vital given that all the signal information is given via the DMI.

The 197’s apparently don’t have anywhere to plug in a laptop to do this and TFW have opted against footing a 2nd DMI on the non driving side as CAF are charging too much.

 

[Dai Corner]

There is another bridge to cross before we even begin to see drivers getting trained on the 197’s on the Cambrian.
Currently, instructors have a laptop which they can plug in on the non-driving side to replicate the DMI and see what the trainee see’s, which is pretty vital given that all the signal information is given via the DMI.

The 197’s apparently don’t have anywhere to plug in a laptop to do this and TFW have opted against footing a 2nd DMI on the non driving side as CAF are charging too much.

Wonder who failed to specify that?

Manufacturers make much of their profits from variations and add-ons like this so I hope TfW will come up with something cheap, like a couple of mirrors?

 

[Krokodil]

The 197’s apparently don’t have anywhere to plug in a laptop to do this

I'm sure that there's some kind of port on the secondman's side of the existing 197s. I'll have a look next time I'm on a 197.

 

[berneyarms]

It still has to be available for service though. If it's in bits, it is not spare. It depends on the priorities of the management of the day. Someone might decide that an hourly service to Aberystwyth is more useful than a hot spare. One more thought; if 24 158s are not enough to run an hourly service, bearing in mind there is only one diagram off the Cambrian now, then it's hard to see how 21 197s will cope.

There's only 20 diagrams out of the 24 158's in the fleet allowing for 4 to be stopped, which to be fair is a regular occurance. There is only one stopped on B exam at a time which is a 2 day exam. A exams are done overnight in between service.
Previously any 158 shortages on their booked routes were usually covered by other 15x fleet, but a stop has been put to that now.

With the 197 ERTM's fleet, as they are still effectively the same units, then ERTM's 197s could well often be seen covering on non-ERTM's routes. But the long term fleet numbers will be very different once all the 197's are in service and working on the routes they were planned for, so the need to substitute on other routes would be minimal, but not out of the question. Shortage of non-ERTM's 197s will probably just lead to short forms.

You always need some redundancy in any fleet to cover exams and failures.

20/24 rostered for daily use is a reasonable percentage. Going beyond that risks increased numbers of cancelled services.

 

[craigybagel]

You always need some redundancy in any fleet to cover exams and failures.

20/24 rostered for daily use is a reasonable percentage. Going beyond that risks increased numbers of cancelled services.

Especially with the 158s. They aren't getting any younger......

 

[Lurcheroo]

I'm sure that there's some kind of port on the secondman's side of the existing 197s. I'll have a look next time I'm on a 197.

Hmm! Please do, I would be interested to know what you find.

 

[Rhydgaled]

1420 arrival at Shrewsbury can do 1430 to Aberystwyth instead of attaching to Birmingham and back.

Wouldn't that result in shortforming the train to Birmingham? If so, that wouldn't be very clever in my opinion - deliberately planning for a service to be going in/out of a big city like Birmingham during the day with just 2 coaches is asking for overcrowding.

 

[nwales58]

Somehow I doubt that even those involved in long-term planning (as in years ahead, not just LTP timetables) actually know for sure what the future will hold.

However one of the community councils, can't remember whether it was Pwllheli or Porthmadog, got the impression earlier this year that 197s would start on the Cambrian Coast December 2024. A few local people keep repeating it. How on earth did that happen? over-optimisitic TfW PR or misunderstanding? There will be blame-dumping when it doesn't happen.

 

[Lurcheroo]

However one of the community councils, can't remember whether it was Pwllheli or Porthmadog, got the impression earlier this year that 197s would start on the Cambrian Coast December 2024. A few local people keep repeating it. How on earth did that happen? over-optimisitic TfW PR or misunderstanding? There will be blame-dumping when it doesn't happen.

I think it was Barmouth wasn’t it ?

I think there was some genuine thought it would happen. But it absolutely won’t. It seems that current predictions are just forecasts and that September 2025 is the best guess as it stands.

 

[Krokodil]

However one of the community councils, can't remember whether it was Pwllheli or Porthmadog, got the impression earlier this year that 197s would start on the Cambrian Coast December 2024. A few local people keep repeating it. How on earth did that happen? over-optimisitic TfW PR or misunderstanding? There will be blame-dumping when it doesn't happen.

They probably saw some of the original plans which we're now far behind. This illustrates my point about how you can't predict the future because the original plan won't survive contact with reality

 

[Caaardiff]

Wouldn't that result in shortforming the train to Birmingham? If so, that wouldn't be very clever in my opinion - deliberately planning for a service to be going in/out of a big city like Birmingham during the day with just 2 coaches is asking for overcrowding.

That is a 6 car so would be short formed to 4 car which is sufficient.

 

[Lurcheroo]

That is a 6 car so would be short formed to 4 car which is sufficient.

No it’s not.
The 14:32 is booked a 4 car. The 15:31 is booked a 6 car as it forms the 17:08 from Birmingham international / 17:21 from New street and can be incredibly busy.

To be honest, I see that a lot of days the 07:30 from Shrewsbury to Birmingham in the morning is reported full and standing at some point during its journey even as a 4 car.
I believe the plan was that it will become a 6 car when it switches over to 197’s.
Currently the 1 unit comes from Aberystwyth and 1 unit from Crewe. The return then usually has all 4 coaches go to Holyhead.
I could see this becoming booked as 1 (ERTMS)unit from Aberystwyth and 2 (regular) units from Crewe. Then on the return, splitting at Shrewsbury with front 4 (Non-ERTMS) continuing to Holyhead whilst the rear most unit can Form the 10:30 to Aberystwyth.

 

[Caaardiff]

No it’s not.
The 14:32 is booked a 4 car. The 15:31 is booked a 6 car as it forms the 17:08 from Birmingham international / 17:21 from New street and can be incredibly busy.

To be honest, I see that a lot of days the 07:30 from Shrewsbury to Birmingham in the morning is reported full and standing at some point during its journey even as a 4 car.
I believe the plan was that it will become a 6 car when it switches over to 197’s.
Currently the 1 unit comes from Aberystwyth and 1 unit from Crewe. The return then usually has all 4 coaches go to Holyhead.
I could see this becoming booked as 1 (ERTMS)unit from Aberystwyth and 2 (regular) units from Crewe. Then on the return, splitting at Shrewsbury with front 4 (Non-ERTMS) continuing to Holyhead whilst the rear most unit can Form the 10:30 to Aberystwyth.

The 1410 arrival from Aberystwyth attaches to the 1530 to Birmingham to make it 6 car.

 

[Krokodil]

Hmm! Please do, I would be interested to know what you find.

There is indeed a label "Instructors-side ERTMS socket" on the cabinet under the Secondman's desk and an Ethernet port inside. This is on a conventional unit, mind.

 

[Cambrian359]

There is indeed a label "Instructors-side ERTMS socket" on the cabinet under the Secondman's desk and an Ethernet port inside. This is on a conventional unit, mind.

50 year old London tube stock looks in better condition than that
(Zooming in on that sealant work)

 

[Lurcheroo]

The 1410 arrival from Aberystwyth attaches to the 1530 to Birmingham to make it 6 car.

Facepalm moment. It does indeed, my apologies. I was up with the baby so clearly my brain wasnt working properly at that time.

There is indeed a label "Instructors-side ERTMS socket" on the cabinet under the Secondman's desk and an Ethernet port inside. This is on a conventional unit, mind.

interesting, is that down near the floor ?

 

[Krokodil]

interesting, is that down near the floor ?

The ethernet port was roughly at knee height, I think.

 

[Peter Sarf]

No it’s not.
The 14:32 is booked a 4 car. The 15:31 is booked a 6 car as it forms the 17:08 from Birmingham international / 17:21 from New street and can be incredibly busy.

To be honest, I see that a lot of days the 07:30 from Shrewsbury to Birmingham in the morning is reported full and standing at some point during its journey even as a 4 car.
I believe the plan was that it will become a 6 car when it switches over to 197’s.
Currently the 1 unit comes from Aberystwyth and 1 unit from Crewe. The return then usually has all 4 coaches go to Holyhead.
I could see this becoming booked as 1 (ERTMS)unit from Aberystwyth and 2 (regular) units from Crewe. Then on the return, splitting at Shrewsbury with front 4 (Non-ERTMS) continuing to Holyhead whilst the rear most unit can Form the 10:30 to Aberystwyth.

This makes me wonder. Can a non-ERTMS fitted 197 work with a 197 that has ERTMS fitted (but "switched off") ?.
I am having a class 777 odd and even numbered moment here !.

 

[Bikeman78]

Somehow I doubt that even those involved in long-term planning (as in years ahead, not just LTP timetables) actually know for sure what the future will hold.

It seems likely that 197s will start running on the Cambrian next year so someone must have some idea of the plan. Indeed, there must be an outline plan in order to decide how many units needed ERTMS. Separating Birmingham to Aberystwyth and Birmingham to Holyhead would require a complete rewrite of the timetable, unless they are proposing 80 minute turnarounds at Birmingham International.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The ethernet port was roughly at knee height, I think.

Righto, cheers.

This makes me wonder. Can a non-ERTMS fitted 197 work with a 197 that has ERTMS fitted (but "switched off") ?.
I am having a class 777 odd and even numbered moment here !.

Yes both types can work together. 003 and 103 have run as a 5 car on a test run for definite. Just as a TFW 158 can work together with any other sprinter currently. The ERTMS system will even limit speed to 75mph if you tell if that you have a 150 or 153 attached, and I think it will do that even when running on conventional signals.

 

[Bikeman78]

You always need some redundancy in any fleet to cover exams and failures.

20/24 rostered for daily use is a reasonable percentage. Going beyond that risks increased numbers of cancelled services.

I'm not proposing an increase in diagrams. The one that sits at Machynlleth during the day is one of the 20 diagrams. I made a mistake in my earlier post. There are only 18 units that go on the Cambrian. The one that attaches to the back of 1I04 at Shrewsbury doesn't go on the Cambrian.

 

[185143]

It seems likely that 197s will start running on the Cambrian next year so someone must have some idea of the plan. Indeed, there must be an outline plan in order to decide how many units needed ERTMS. Separating Birmingham to Aberystwyth and Birmingham to Holyhead would require a complete rewrite of the timetable, unless they are proposing 80 minute turnarounds at Birmingham International.

Wasn't there rumour of the TfW service extending to Coventry at once point (I'd guess about 5-7 years ago), or am I completely imagining that?

 

[craigybagel]

Righto, cheers.


Yes both types can work together. 003 and 103 have run as a 5 car on a test run for definite. Just as a TFW 158 can work together with any other sprinter currently. The ERTMS system will even limit speed to 75mph if you tell if that you have a 150 or 153 attached, and I think it will do that even when running on conventional signals.

It does indeed work in Level 0. Speedo turns yellow and an alarm sounds if you try going too far past 75

Wasn't there rumour of the TfW service extending to Coventry at once point (I'd guess about 5-7 years ago), or am I completely imagining that?

They applied for access rights, along with an increased level of service via Stafford. Nothing came of it sadly.

 

[Krokodil]

It seems likely that 197s will start running on the Cambrian next year so someone must have some idea of the plan

They'll have an idea of a plan. Which will be different from last week's plan, and different again from whatever actually ends up happening.

 

[Bikeman78]

They'll have an idea of a plan. Which will be different from last week's plan, and different again from whatever actually ends up happening.

I suspect that the service will be very similar to now and that 18 of the 21 units will be diagrammed. With some non ERTMS units providing extra capacity to Birmingham and along the coast as required.

 

[Krokodil]

Only if CAF sort out the availability issues.

 

[Jez]

Looks like there was a pair of 153s on a West Wales to Manchester but swapped at Cardiff Central for 197s and then the pair of 153s were sent on the 1747 service to Milford Haven. A lot of effort seems to be made to ensure any substitutions for 197s do not end up going on the Cardiff-Manchester route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2024 ==

I suspect that the service will be very similar to now and that 18 of the 21 units will be diagrammed. With some non ERTMS units providing extra capacity to Birmingham and along the coast as required.

I think of the 20 158's booked for service 3 of them are booked for other routes away the Cambrian/Birmingham's, or at least thats what used to happen. I think one still does Cardiff-Holyhead and the other 2 are just used as spares and often turn up on services around South Wales to Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Manchester and Chester etc (all 3 used to have booked workings in South Wales across a 3 day cycle before returning North). So i imagine 21 197s for the Cambrian will be fine to include some for maintenance.