CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Dai Corner]

Do we know when the Cambrian is likely to go 197?

I know a couple of units have been to Pwllheli but how far along are the plans for it to go over to CAF operation!

As a TfW employee said yesterday

Last thing I heard was 2026. At the earliest.

 

[Caleb2010]

Thank you for that! Appreciate it!

 

[Lurcheroo]

As far as I know, the issue 031 had was a fail to transition to ERTMS, which is hardly a rare scenario on the 158 fleet as well.

Yeah bang on. Sounds like the driver had predicted the issue when he found out he was taking 031 on Tuesday. It was certainly almost a daily occurrence at one time but it’s been significantly improved, my instructor was saying they’re getting trainees now that pass out without ever getting a fail to transition and they can’t even seem to conjure up the failure by not using the ERPIS when setting up at Shrewsbury either.

I wonder if they'll have to modify the buzzer on the 197s. At the moment they only sound at a panel the guard is keyed into - they don't even sound in the back cab unless the guard has their key in one of the panels there. Plus it's a much less distinguishable beep compared to the rough buzz you get on 158s. I think it's going to make the Cambrian method of working a lot more challenging.

Yes, I have wondered about it also for the request stop working on the Cambrian coast too. I do find the 158 buzzer very satisfying compared to the bell on the 197’s haha. I guess we will see what they decide.

I’ve also decided I’m going to really miss the openable drivers window like on the 158’s. I love Trundling along the coast at 50 or 60 K with the window cracked and a sea breeze blowing through.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

As far as I know, the issue 031 had was a fail to transition to ERTMS, which is hardly a rare scenario on the 158 fleet as well.

Oh dear, same issue again today.

 

[southernyoshi]

Forgive my ignorance as someone whose only experience is as a passenger on the Cambrian, but would it have been easier/cheaper to restore the conventional signalling system so they could run any train down here with no problems? Just with all the delays there's been & continue to be (2026 now?!) it feels like replacing the signalling would've been a quicker way to the end goal of a constant hourly service...

 

[anamyd]

Forgive my ignorance as someone whose only experience is as a passenger on the Cambrian, but would it have been easier/cheaper to restore the conventional signalling system so they could run any train down here with no problems? Just with all the delays there's been & continue to be (2026 now?!) it feels like replacing the signalling would've been a quicker way to the end goal of a constant hourly service...

I don't think the Cambrian has had conventional signalling since late 1988.

From late 1988 to 2010/2011 time when the ERTMS/ETCS took over, the Cambrian had RETB (Radio Electronic Token Block) signalling, which apparently is still used on three lines in Scotland (West Highland, Kyle and Far North).

 

[Lurcheroo]

Forgive my ignorance as someone whose only experience is as a passenger on the Cambrian, but would it have been easier/cheaper to restore the conventional signalling system so they could run any train down here with no problems? Just with all the delays there's been & continue to be (2026 now?!) it feels like replacing the signalling would've been a quicker way to the end goal of a constant hourly service...

What would removing ERTMS and putting conventional signalling back in achieve though ? Even when it was RETB only 158’s worked the line for many years.

 

[Doveymain158]

What would removing ERTMS and putting conventional signalling back in achieve though ? Even when it was RETB only 158’s worked the line for many years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

Nothing. The cost would be a lot you would have to design the system, install fixed signals, re-installing AWS & TPWS, speed limit boards and other things. It means going backwards, ERTMS is the way forward.

 

[Lurcheroo]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

Nothing. The cost would be a lot you would have to design the system, install fixed signals, re-installing AWS & TPWS, speed limit boards and other things. It means going backwards, ERTMS is the way forward.

Yes exactly. It is the way forward and more and more places will get it as systems become life expired.

ERTMS is more expensive to install and then cheaper to run. We already have it so the cost of ripping it out would be mad.

The Cambrian was a test bed for it, we’ve got all sorts of random bits of what it can do in different places as it was to show these things working in reality. We have all sorts of people come from across the country who will be getting ERTMS to see how it works, to get to drive on it and experience it in advance.

That’s worth a lot to the bigger network in itself.

It’s also a ‘safer’ system compared to AWS/TPWS.

Not that it will ever matter for the Cambrian but it’s also needed for any running above 125mph.

 

[craigybagel]

Yes, I have wondered about it also for the request stop working on the Cambrian coast too. I do find the 158 buzzer very satisfying compared to the bell on the 197’s haha. I guess we will see what they decide.

I’ve also decided I’m going to really miss the openable drivers window like on the 158’s. I love Trundling along the coast at 50 or 60 K with the window cracked and a sea breeze blowing through.

You can drive with the window open, just as long as you remember to put it up again before you need to open the door. Quite nice in summer, as good as the cab air con is. Like you I much prefer driving with fresh air

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==


Oh dear, same issue again today.

Looks like it doesn't like 031....

 

[southernyoshi]

Fair enough, like I said I'm only an ignorant passenger The thing that's concerning is if the full hourly service is dependent on the 197s, if they're delayed again it'll mean the service is delayed yet again

 

[Lurcheroo]

You can drive with the window open, just as long as you remember to put it up again before you need to open the door. Quite nice in summer, as good as the cab air con is. Like you I much prefer driving with fresh air

Oh that’s not so bad then!

Looks like it doesn't like 031....

Hmm, seems so I suppose this is the purpose of testing though.

Fair enough, like I said I'm only an ignorant passenger The thing that's concerning is if the full hourly service is dependent on the 197s, if they're delayed again it'll mean the service is delayed yet again

Sorry, didn’t mean to come across a bit ‘narky’ if it came across that way.

Not sure if you know but TFW announced earlier this year that the hourly service wouldn’t come in until May2026 and it will only run through the summer months ?

 

[Jez]

I had a journey to Tenby yesterday for the first time on a 197. I found the ride quality slightly rough and noisy on the Pembroke Branch especially noticed it between Kilgetty and Whitland and then around the Kidwelly/Pembrey area which ive noticed before on trips to Carmarthen. However the aircon was absolutely fine on all 3 197s I went on yesterday (197107 Neath to Carmarthen, 197009 Carmarthen to Tenby and 197109 Tenby to Swansea).

Apart from the ride quality at certain times (especially sat over the bogies on the return but needed to grab a table of 4 for my family to sit together so just went for the first one i could get to) I have no complaints about the 197s at all, I have to say they are a very worthy successor to the 175s overall. And certainly the best journey ive had on the Pembroke Line which in the past has been Sprinters and Pacers when ive used it! The worst ride quality ive had on the Pembroke Branch was on a Pacer.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I had a journey to Tenby yesterday for the first time on a 197. I found the ride quality slightly rough and noisy on the Pembroke Branch especially noticed it between Kilgetty and Whitland and then around the Kidwelly/Pembrey area which ive noticed before on trips to Carmarthen. However the aircon was absolutely fine on all 3 197s I went on yesterday (197107 Neath to Carmarthen, 197009 Carmarthen to Tenby and 197109 Tenby to Swansea).

Apart from the ride quality at certain times (especially sat over the bogies on the return but needed to grab a table of 4 for my family to sit together so just went for the first one i could get to) I have no complaints about the 197s at all, I have to say they are a very worthy successor to the 175s overall. And certainly the best journey ive had on the Pembroke Line which in the past has been Sprinters and Pacers when ive used it! The worst ride quality ive had on the Pembroke Branch was on a Pacer.

A conductor I work with went down to Tenby recently and he said the ride was rough over the jointed rails. Ride quality is certainly one of the most complained about things. And there are some seriously rough sections on the Cambrian even for 158’s so I do wonder how the 197’s will get on there. But more rail replacement is planned for early next year so the worst may be gone by time they come.
Nice to hear the aircon was working well.

A big step up in quality vs the pacers and 150/153 in my opinion too.

 

[Rhydgaled]

with all the delays there's been & continue to be (2026 now?!) it feels like replacing the signalling would've been a quicker way to the end goal of a constant hourly service...

The goal is no longer "a constant hourly service"; that plan was abandoned following TfW's recent timetable review (they are also now planning some cuts to first and last trains on the Cambrian Coast). TfW's goal now for Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth is an hourly service for the summer months only, with three services each way to disappear in the winter timetable each year. Personally, I think making the hourly service seasonal significantly reduces its value and, as such, would rather they simply dropped those three Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury workings altogether and preserved the current Cambrian timetable in full instead (ie. dropping the planned cuts for the Cambrian Coast).

if the full hourly service is dependent on the 197s, if they're delayed again it'll mean the service is delayed yet again

I'm pretty sure it was never dependent on 197s coming to the Cambrian; at one point hourly services were promised 'by 2011', long before 197s were even on the drawing board. All it needed was something (whether that be 197s or something else) additional away from the Cambrian to release a few extra 158s.

I don't think the Cambrian has had conventional signalling since late 1988.

From late 1988 to 2010/2011 time when the ERTMS/ETCS took over, the Cambrian had RETB (Radio Electronic Token Block) signalling, which apparently is still used on three lines in Scotland (West Highland, Kyle and Far North).

I understood that the radio frequency(ies) used by RETB are no longer available in England and Wales, hence the need to change to ETCS. Not sure how RETB still works in Scotland?

 

[Anonymous10]

A conductor I work with went down to Tenby recently and he said the ride was rough over the jointed rails. Ride quality is certainly one of the most complained about things. And there are some seriously rough sections on the Cambrian even for 158’s so I do wonder how the 197’s will get on there. But more rail replacement is planned for early next year so the worst may be gone by time they come.
Nice to hear the aircon was working well.

A big step up in quality vs the pacers and 150/153 in my opinion too.

I use the branch regularly, it's rough but not the worse I've experienced. Maybe I've adjusted to rough ride quality from the 80x to London and Cornwall which ain't great either.

 

[Envoy]

It’s high time that all jointed rail is removed - along with the rotting wooden sleepers. That would surely allow the 197’s to run faster on such lines.

 

[iceolate]

There was some discussion a few weeks back about the 197 needing a software upgrade to the ASDO to allow 5 coaches to run on the Marches due to issues of the train fouling level crossings. My regular 197 journey just happened to be 4 coaches this week and I observed at Wem travelling in the direction of Cardiff the front coach stopped forward of the platform with an automated announcement to move towards the rear to alight.

If my understanding is correct then the ASDO system already handles the issues as previously described for 4 coach operation, is it simply the case now of a tweak being required specifically for 5 coach operation or is it more complex than that?

 

[Lurcheroo]

It’s high time that all jointed rail is removed - along with the rotting wooden sleepers. That would surely allow the 197’s to run faster on such lines.

That would actually be very nice !

 

[Bikeman78]

Yep, and possibly most importantly, has successfully proven that they can run along side the 158’s which was unknown as to wether or not it would be possible.

Is there any reason why they wouldn't? Almost every other route with ERTMS/ETCS has various different types of train running along it.

 

[Krokodil]

Is there any reason why they wouldn't? Almost every other route with ERTMS/ETCS has various different types of train running along it.

The original Cambrian installation was an experimental one, as is the equipment on the 158s.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Is there any reason why they wouldn't? Almost every other route with ERTMS/ETCS has various different types of train running along it.

As Krokodik says really.

The reason for the uncertainty was that 158’s and 197’s run on different base line softwares (I can’t remember the exact number of each) but it hadn’t been proved if they would be compatible or not.
The ERTMS system on the Cambrian was upgraded to be compatible with the 197’s. But until now the 197’s have always run out of service hours.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm pretty sure it was never dependent on 197s coming to the Cambrian; at one point hourly services were promised 'by 2011', long before 197s were even on the drawing board. All it needed was something (whether that be 197s or something else) additional away from the Cambrian to release a few extra 158s.

It can be done now, without using any extra sets. There is a 158 at Machynlleth from about 0745 to 1745. That can attach to 1I08 which frees up the 0820 arrival at Shrewsbury. That can do 0830/1230/1630 to Aberystwyth. 1420 arrival at Shrewsbury can do 1430 to Aberystwyth instead of attaching to Birmingham and back. Same plan would work with 197s.

 

[berneyarms]

It can be done now, without using any extra sets. There is a 158 at Machynlleth from about 0745 to 1745. That can attach to 1I08 which frees up the 0820 arrival at Shrewsbury. That can do 0830/1230/1630 to Aberystwyth. 1420 arrival at Shrewsbury can do 1430 to Aberystwyth instead of attaching to Birmingham and back. Same plan would work with 197s.

Isn't that a maintenance spare though that does the run out from Machynlleth to Barmouth and back?

I recall when the service was expanded, that that particular service was retained in the timetable by releasing a set from being maintenance spare to do that run.

I suspect that it is being serviced during the day.

 

[Bikeman78]

Isn't that a maintenance spare though that does the run out from Machynlleth to Barmouth and back?

I recall when the service was expanded, that that particular service was retained in the timetable by releasing a set from being maintenance spare to do that run.

I suspect that it is being serviced during the day.

I am sure someone with better local knowledge that me can confirm but I think it just sits in the sidings during the day. In fact, it often gets pinched to work something else, the 1055 to Pwllheli being a favourite.

 

[Krokodil]

I am sure someone with better local knowledge that me can confirm but I think it just sits in the sidings during the day. In fact, it often gets pinched to work something else, the 1055 to Pwllheli being a favourite.

So in other words it can be considered to be a "hot spare", available to keep the service going in case of a failure or disruption? Quite refreshing in these days of sweating the assets.

 

[berneyarms]

So in other words it can be considered to be a "hot spare", available to keep the service going in case of a failure or disruption? Quite refreshing in these days of sweating the assets.

Quite. A "hot spare" is not there to be rostered in service all day, but to act as cover.

I had a fair idea it was part of the maintenance pool of sets, which was my point.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I don’t think it’s even that simple now.
I don’t regularly see a unit on the depot during the day.
Yesterday there were 5 units on the shed before I even began taking the units off from end of service.
1 was waiting WSP parts, 1 being repaired after hitting the tree outside Welshpool last week and 1 on B exam. So that’s 3 units out straight away. The other 2 were made ready to form the first services in the morning.

Someone who understands the unit diagrams a bit more might be able to explain better than I.

 

[Bikeman78]

Quite. A "hot spare" is not there to be rostered in service all day, but to act as cover.

I had a fair idea it was part of the maintenance pool of sets, which was my point.

It still has to be available for service though. If it's in bits, it is not spare. It depends on the priorities of the management of the day. Someone might decide that an hourly service to Aberystwyth is more useful than a hot spare. One more thought; if 24 158s are not enough to run an hourly service, bearing in mind there is only one diagram off the Cambrian now, then it's hard to see how 21 197s will cope.

 

[Cambrian359]

It still has to be available for service though. If it's in bits, it is not spare. It depends on the priorities of the management of the day. Someone might decide that an hourly service to Aberystwyth is more useful than a hot spare. One more thought; if 24 158s are not enough to run an hourly service, bearing in mind there is only one diagram off the Cambrian now, then it's hard to see how 21 197s will cope.

I think it’s been mentioned that the 21 Cambrian fitted 197s will eventually be contained to Cambrian, cambrian to Birmingham services only, no holyheads etc so in theory 21 should be enough even in summer. Of course if there are shortages elsewhere they will almost certainly be borrowed though I’m sure.(which is a point I tried making a few years back that Cambrian 197s can be borrowed to help out elsewhere but there will be nothing available to help on Cambrian should it’s dedicated fleet be in short supply for whatever reason)

 

[Jez]

I think it’s been mentioned that the 21 Cambrian fitted 197s will eventually be contained to Cambrian, cambrian to Birmingham services only, no holyheads etc so in theory 21 should be enough even in summer. Of course if there are shortages elsewhere they will almost certainly be borrowed though I’m sure.(which is a point I tried making a few years back that Cambrian 197s can be borrowed to help out elsewhere but there will be nothing available to help on Cambrian should it’s dedicated fleet be in short supply for whatever reason)

Would they be able to borrow them though and have them turn up far away from.the Cambrian somewhere like Pembroke Dock for example. I was under the impression the 21 units would be exclusive to the Cambrian and Birmingjam routes.

Unlike the 158s which regularly turn up elsewhere. On Friday for example both of the Swansea to Chester services were 158s in lieu of a 197. Both ended up pn the Cambrian the following day after finishing at Chester on Friday. Not sure how many 158s are required for the Cambrian Birmingham and Holyheads but there often seems to be a few spare for various routes in South Wales.