CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Lurcheroo]

I believe 197003 and then 197022 - 041 will have ETCS.

From my knowledge, 003, 022-041.
All other 197/0s are working in service.

That’s correct.
Also adding for 50002superb that 003 and 024 have been out doing testing on the Cambrian and tests/training elsewhere.

 

[childwallblues]

That’s correct.
Also adding for 50002superb that 003 and 024 have been out doing testing on the Cambrian and tests/training elsewhere.

024 came through Chester Station from the Crewe direction yesterday afternoon whilst I was there.

 

[50002Superb]

That’s correct.
Also adding for 50002superb that 003 and 024 have been out doing testing on the Cambrian and tests/training elsewhere.

Understood, thanks to both of you

 

[BillStampy]

It isn't just me or is 1W22 ignoring the clearance runs? Unless it's cleared between Shrewsbury and Crewe for 5, it seems to be running as 5 right now according to https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L40542/2024-06-27/detailed

 

[sd0733]

It isn't just me or is 1W22 ignoring the clearance runs? Unless it's cleared between Shrewsbury and Crewe for 5, it seems to be running as 5 right now according to https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L40542/2024-06-27/detailed

It's still showing internally as a 5 too so RTT will pick that up but it is dropping a set in Shrewsbury. Believe the plan is then the second set is running empty to Crewe to pick up its booked Manchester an hour behind.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

It's still showing internally as a 5 too so RTT will pick that up but it is dropping a set in Shrewsbury. Believe the plan is then the second set is running empty to Crewe to pick up its booked Manchester an hour behind.

Only stopped for a minute in Shrewsbury so not sure whether it dropped the set...

 

[sd0733]

Only stopped for a minute in Shrewsbury so not sure whether it dropped the set...

I was looking at the wrong train! 1W64 also running as a 5, that's the plan for that one
Hopefully the first one didn't go through as a 5!

 

[Lurcheroo]

I was looking at the wrong train! 1W64 also running as a 5, that's the plan for that one
Hopefully the first one didn't go through as a 5!

I looked and know the guard, sent them a text and they tell me it was 5 to Crewe and then 3 to Manchester.

Edit: I’m told it’s ok to go as 5 on a fast service but not on one with stops at short platforms.

 

[sd0733]

I looked and know the guard, sent them a text and they tell me it was 5 to Crewe and then 3 to Manchester.

Edit: I’m told it’s ok to go as 5 on a fast service but not on one with stops at short platforms.

That one is a stopper, stops at Wem which is one of the short platforms.
The one behind is a non-stop one and that's splitting.

 

[60159]

I was looking at the wrong train! 1W64 also running as a 5, that's the plan for that one
Hopefully the first one didn't go through as a 5!

I suspect this isn’t news but saw 2x3 cars at Shrewsbury just before 11 this morning. Could have been Holyhead to Cardiff.

 

[Lurcheroo]

That one is a stopper, stops at Wem which is one of the short platforms.
The one behind is a non-stop one and that's splitting.

Well that is certainly interesting. I’ll ask. I wonder if they can just override ASDO at wem ?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I suspect this isn’t news but saw 2x3 cars at Shrewsbury just before 11 this morning. Could have been Holyhead to Cardiff.

Yes 1V94 was a 6 today IIRC.

That one is a stopper, stops at Wem which is one of the short platforms.
The one behind is a non-stop one and that's splitting.

That's worrying
Someone is going to get a large rebuke for this I imagine, unless it did indeed split.

 

[BillStampy]

That's worrying
Someone is going to get a large rebuke for this I imagine, unless it did indeed split.

Don't think a 197 can split so fast at Shrewsbury! (1 minute)

 

[Krokodil]

That's worrying
Someone is going to get a large rebuke for this I imagine, unless it did indeed split.

Not the first time that mistakes have happened. I remember an ECS Mk4 set being sent to Crewe via Nantwich instead of via Chester before gauge clearance had been done. The coaches gained some new go-faster stripes courtesy of one of the stations.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Well it certainly seems it did go as 5 to Crewe and stop at Wem.
The guard I know didn’t work it between Shrewsbury and Crewe but there’s nothing I can see that said it didn’t stop at Wem.
Is it possible there was no driver to take the 2 car ECS afterwards so control said lock the rear 2 out and work it as a 3 car ?

 

[Envoy]

So, are we in a situation where 5 coach 197’s can’t go between Shrewsbury and Crewe because if they stop at Wem, one of the coaches is not platformed? I thought that these 197’s have selective coach door locking? That being the case, can’t they just keep the last coach locked & tell anyone wishing to alight to move forward?

 

[sd0733]

Is it possible there was no driver to take the 2 car ECS afterwards so control said lock the rear 2 out and work it as a 3 car ?

That was a plan for the later one, I was looking at the wrong one as both the "splitting" diagrams ran as 5s last night.

I'm sure it'll all be looked but it's probably best left not in a public place as to why or how it may have ended up running.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2024 ==

So, are we in a situation where 5 coach 197’s can’t go between Shrewsbury and Crewe because if they stop at Wem, one of the coaches is not platformed? I thought that these 197’s have selective coach door locking? That being the case, can’t they just keep the last coach locked & tell anyone wishing to alight to move forward?

No. I was merely pointing out that Wem Is one of the short platforms.
ASDO is used there anyway to lock out doors on a 4 car so that is exactly what happens.

 

[Lurcheroo]

That was a plan for the later one, I was looking at the wrong one as both the "splitting" diagrams ran as 5s last night.

I'm sure it'll all be looked but it's probably best left not in a public place as to why or how it may have ended up running.

Oh right! Who knows then.
Yes you’re probably right there.

 

[Envoy]

So, just what is the problem with running 5 car trains between Shrewsbury & Crewe?

 

[BenBracken]

That’s correct.
Also adding for 50002superb that 003 and 024 have been out doing testing on the Cambrian and tests/training elsewhere.

Has anyone got any pics of them testing on the Cambrian?

 

[Krokodil]

So, are we in a situation where 5 coach 197’s can’t go between Shrewsbury and Crewe because if they stop at Wem, one of the coaches is not platformed? I thought that these 197’s have selective coach door locking? That being the case, can’t they just keep the last coach locked & tell anyone wishing to alight to move forward?

It may be as simple as a test run not having been done with a five car. Or there may be issues to resolve, such as a level crossing being fouled.

 

[Lurcheroo]

It may be as simple as a test run not having been done with a five car. Or there may be issues to resolve, such as a level crossing being fouled.

There was a 5 car proving run done back on the 21st of March.
There is / was some sort of issue with the 5 cars that needed sorting but I’m not sure what exactly.
There are restrictions with the current version of ASDO.
If you have 4,5 or 6 cars it will always lock out the same number of doors at a given station.
An update is planned for the future to allow variable number of doors to be released depending on formation.
I understand that 6 cars won’t be cleared until that update comes so my guess is that if you had the ASDO profile set for 6 cars, when you have 2 coaches it wouldn’t allow you to open any doors.

 

[nwales58]

If you have 4,5 or 6 cars it will always lock out the same number of doors at a given station.
An update is planned for the future to allow variable number of doors to be released depending on formation.

It's hard to believe the specification was that naff, especially for anything critical to operation. Anyone know more?

 

[Northerngirl]

It's hard to believe the specification was that naff, especially for anything critical to operation. Anyone know more?

I never understand how SDO seems to be such a problem for trains, the announcements known where the train is, surely that can also turn off the rear X amount of doors.

 

[Krokodil]

I never understand how SDO seems to be such a problem for trains, the announcements known where the train is, surely that can also turn off the rear X amount of doors.

At some stations with short platforms the stopping points aren't consistent, such as some request stops on the Cambrian where automatic level crossings necessitate longer trains to stop with the front off of the platform rather than the front. This may create issues

 

[nwales58]

I never understand how SDO seems to be such a problem for trains, the announcements known where the train is, surely that can also turn off the rear X amount of doors.

Definitely not nowadays, maybe a decade or more ago.

This is safety-critical so there has to be a reliable way of determining the train is at a specific platform and positioned at the expected stop point for its length (as well as which station). That goes well beyond a GPS position, unless you get into surveying accuracy, which also may not be reliable with overhangs, trees, cuttings and so on.

Train announcements are not safety-critical. I understand some systems work off counting the door releases which would be laughably inadequate for SDO.

Human software is much better at this, but more error-prone so everything gets automated nowadays.

 

[WirralLine]

Definitely not nowadays, maybe a decade or more ago.

This is safety-critical so there has to be a reliable way of determining the train is at a specific platform and positioned at the expected stop point for its length (as well as which station). That goes well beyond a GPS position, unless you get into surveying accuracy, which also may not be reliable with overhangs, trees, cuttings and so on.

Train announcements are not safety-critical. I understand some systems work off counting the door releases which would be laughably inadequate for SDO.

Human software is much better at this, but more error-prone so everything gets automated nowadays.

ASDO on the 197 is GPS based rather than beacon, so it isn't precise. It knows which direction the train is heading (Up or Down), which station is next, which side the platform is on and how many doors said platform fits. It isn't accurate enough to know if the train is fully platformed.

Once the train enters the ASDO GPS "bubble" a few hundred meters before a station, it knows how many doors to allow. It is then down to the guard to ensure the train is stopped in the correct position and that all doors selected by ASDO are platformed. For example if a 4 car 197 stopped short of a platform, and the back is hanging off, if the guard then releases the doors all of the allowed doors will open - not just those which are accommodated.

For stations where there is more than one choice of platform the train could arrive at, the GPS isn't precise enough to determine which platform the train has arrived into. At these stations ASDO isn't available and has to be overridden by the guard. Examples include large stations such as Crewe, Lime St, Chester etc, but also stations which have bi-directional platforms such as Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[BillStampy]

1W64 and 1W87 are both due 5 to Crewe (as of right now), unsure if this is intentional or not anymore.

 

[sd0733]

1W64 and 1W87 are both due 5 to Crewe (as of right now), unsure if this is intentional or not anymore.

1w87 was a 2 car in the end. 1W64 did what was originally planned for yesterday with the rear unit detaching at Shrewsbury and following empty to Crewe.

 

[SuspectUsual]

First go on one of those. Just as rough riding as the Northern ones but on the positive side they’ve shifted the plug sockets so they’re easily visible (back of the seat in front rather than tucked under the front edge)