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The interesting thing about the Borders line is that everyone thought that local journeys nearer to Edinburgh would be the more lucrative. Yet as it turned out, the more distant, rural settlements on the line saw much higher than expected growth.
I guess a point there is that the towns and suburbs closer into Edinburgh have more frequent buses to the city centre, and the stations are not always all that conveniently located, meaning that a more frequent bus from the end of your street is more attractive to a lot of people than a train that might be quicker from station to station but doesn't run as often and is a mile walk away. Once you get up to Galashiels and Tweedbank, the bus is no more frequent than the train (and is now less frequent because so many people switched) and the convenience of having it stop closer to home is more than offset by the much quicker door-to-door journey by train.
Kendal and Windermere, plus the nearby destinations of Ambleside and Grasmere, are a much bigger draw than Keswick out on its own – and if you're looking to attract people for a car-free visit, the southern Lakes is better connected by bus than the northern Lakes. And for most people it's closer. The majority of visitors, especially those coming by train, will be coming from the urban north-west, maybe Yorkshire, and further south. Windermere will be about half an hour quicker to get to than Keswick – and does have some through trains to Manchester (even if most are shuttles) which will help to attract passengers, whereas all journeys to Keswick would require a change.
At the moment the bus service in rail journey planners is every half hour, and a bus takes 40-50 people, or approximately 1/2-2/3rds of a single rail carriage.
I guess a point there is that the towns and suburbs closer into Edinburgh have more frequent buses to the city centre, and the stations are not always all that conveniently located, meaning that a more frequent bus from the end of your street is more attractive to a lot of people than a train that might be quicker from station to station but doesn't run as often and is a mile walk away. Once you get up to Galashiels and Tweedbank, the bus is no more frequent than the train (and is now less frequent because so many people switched) and the convenience of having it stop closer to home is more than offset by the much quicker door-to-door journey by train.
Kendal and Windermere, plus the nearby destinations of Ambleside and Grasmere, are a much bigger draw than Keswick out on its own – and if you're looking to attract people for a car-free visit, the southern Lakes is better connected by bus than the northern Lakes. And for most people it's closer. The majority of visitors, especially those coming by train, will be coming from the urban north-west, maybe Yorkshire, and further south. Windermere will be about half an hour quicker to get to than Keswick – and does have some through trains to Manchester (even if most are shuttles) which will help to attract passengers, whereas all journeys to Keswick would require a change.
It's often said that urban transport is something that the railway should concentrate on - to the detriment of regional services, however this overlooks the fact that urban areas often have lots of transport alternatives, whereas regional rail links perform a very specific role to their communities.
When I travel on this bus link, I will make a judgement on whether I think its too long for a bus journey.
Just had a look on trainline and the destination isn't there yet. Checked this forums booking system and the destination is there now (KWK) but itineraries aren't available yet so tickets not yet available to book. I wonder when that will change?
That's good then. Hopefully it will help to bring more tourists there via Penrith (and even better if they spend a bit of money in Penrith town centre, as I've a vested interest in that).
It really isn’t!
even in half season it empties out massively during the week.
And the more out of season you get the more the people there want their car - because they aren’t just going to the main tourist spots, and because using public transport in the rain doesn’t make a great holiday.
If you built a railway it’s unlikely to be high capacity so it would be empty most of the time and overcrowded when it matters - which would put people off.
And it would probably kill the local bus service to the detriment of the locals.
Also, plug construction costs of £30m per km for the railway, and operating costs of £20 per train mile (very rough, low end train operating costs for a branch line) into the 20 year old business case and see what it does
On a hypothetical basis, if you have a town of about 5,000 people is there a distance away from an extent existing rail line, where it might be acceptable to build a new line.
10km away would cost £300 million, 20 km would cost £600 million to build etc.
It really isn’t!
even in half season it empties out massively during the week.
And the more out of season you get the more the people there want their car - because they aren’t just going to the main tourist spots, and because using public transport in the rain doesn’t make a great holiday.
If you built a railway it’s unlikely to be high capacity so it would be empty most of the time and overcrowded when it matters - which would put people off.
And it would probably kill the local bus service to the detriment of the locals.
I visit the Lakes regularly for hiking weekends all year round and it is pretty empty from October to March. The only non-hiking tourists you see are in clumps around the main tourist places which aren’t, never have been and never will be rail connected. This is where normal tourists want to be (Bowness, Grasmere, Coniston etc…).
They go in their cars because they can quickly and easily get to where they want to be. I certainly couldn’t do a hiking holiday on public transport.
If you are keeping costs as low as absolutely possible, the Shuttle would connect into the down slow just before it crosses the M6 and there would be an extra signal or 2 added to permit departures towards Keswick. Freight would have to be held further back or sent onwards to Carlisle if the shuttle was turning up when it was due to be there.
However if you provide a new bridge over the M6, you could shift the turnout further north, but still south of platform 3. You'd need to rejig signal positions but you'd be able to preserve 800m+ of standage on the Down Slow without blocking a branch shuttle coming in and out of the existing platform. A single track bridge over the motorway would be a bit of a hit in the budget though.
It isn’t full of walkers, but it’s still pretty busy, especially the tourist towns like Keswick. I have family who live in the North Lakes near Keswick.
The railway line shouldn’t have shut, it was yet another 1970s BR cutback which was almost immediately regretted. But it also shouldn’t reopen now either, mostly because of that big A66-shaped obstruction.
I believe if the junction is located on it's former position (immediately south of the M6) the remaining length of the down slow would not be sufficient for a 775m intermodal to stand behind a compliantly-placed signal.
As I understood it the Keswick branch and its connections were rationalised out of existence as part of the re signalling of the WCML in advance of electrification. This was also able to take advantage of the generous Surplus Track Capacity [rapid elimination] Grants under the Wilson government’s 1968 Transport Act.
I visit the Lakes regularly for hiking weekends all year round and it is pretty empty from October to March. The only non-hiking tourists you see are in clumps around the main tourist places which aren’t, never have been and never will be rail connected. This is where normal tourists want to be (Bowness, Grasmere, Coniston etc…).
They go in their cars because they can quickly and easily get to where they want to be. I certainly couldn’t do a hiking holiday on public transport.
Keswick Scruffs Fun Dog Show is to celebrate that Keswick has won the Kennel Club's most dog friendly town in the UK for the past 2 years. The show is part of the Keswick Festival in June.
When I was last in the Lakes, in September 2021, I purchased a separate bus ticket and it certainly wasn't £2. The government bus subsidy has seen to this price reduction, which is good.
I didn't go back to Penrith afterwards though as I was travelling back down south with a friend. So I didn't have to consider any connection issues.
However, that woulsnt have arrisen nevauae i would have wqntrs to apend time in Penrith before catching my train.
ilike a bookshop in Penrith, Becside Books and also a very old delicatessen, James & John Graham, going since the late 1700s. Both worth visiting. Also some very old pubs there.
I was there on the day the General Election was called, 22 May but it was pouring rain. To be expected as it's in the vicinity of the Lake District.
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I visit the Lakes regularly for hiking weekends all year round and it is pretty empty from October to March. The only non-hiking tourists you see are in clumps around the main tourist places which aren’t, never have been and never will be rail connected. This is where normal tourists want to be (Bowness, Grasmere, Coniston etc…).
They go in their cars because they can quickly and easily get to where they want to be. I certainly couldn’t do a hiking holiday on public transport.
The coastal route, at least between Whitehaven, Workington and Carlisle, was far more frequent than the eight or nine regular weekday trains via Keswick (excluding Saturday/Seasonal workings).
I believe if the junction is located on it's former position (immediately south of the M6) the remaining length of the down slow would not be sufficient for a 775m intermodal to stand behind a compliantly-placed signal.
I would say not. There are more trains now than then.
There were flows to the bed factory in Aspatria from Workington and Maryport in the south and Wigton and Carlisle in the north.
I have even been steam-hauled between Workington and Carlisle in the early 60s when an original Derby lightweight DMU was unavailable on a Carlisle train originating at Workington about 10;30 in front of a following Whitehaven-Carlisle train about half an hour later. To guarantee seeing the non-stop Royal Scot pass through Carlisle it was necessary to catch the 10:30 otherwise we caught the 11:00ish to make our connection into the following Glasgow-Birmingham.
When Cummersdale station was open, there was quite a flow of workers to the laundry nearby.
Up until the early 60s, there was a through train from Workington to Birmingham NS leaving at 0630 stopping at all stations to Lancaster and a through train overnight to Euston leaving Workington about 19:00, picking up sleeping cars at Barrow, arriving Euston about 04:30. The last time I saw this train depart it was hauled by Britannia 70018 newly transferred from Cardiff Canton.
This train was also the first electric hauled train into Euston on November 12th 1965.
No Sunday service anywhere along the Coast between Carlisle and Barrow.
Even after the opening of the Wigton bypass, the A596 from Workington to Carlisle is a poor road to travel daily and that encourages commuters to use train to/from Carlisle.
I would say not. There are more trains now than then.
There were flows to the bed factory in Aspatria from Workington and Maryport in the south and Wigton and Carlisle in the north.
I have even been steam-hauled between Workington and Carlisle in the early 60s when an original Derby lightweight DMU was unavailable on a Carlisle train originating at Workington about 10;30 in front of a following Whitehaven-Carlisle train about half an hour later. To guarantee seeing the non-stop Royal Scot pass through Carlisle it was necessary to catch the 10:30 otherwise we caught the 11:00ish to make our connection into the following Glasgow-Birmingham.
When Cummersdale station was open, there was quite a flow of workers to the laundry nearby.
Up until the early 60s, there was a through train from Workington to Birmingham NS leaving at 0630 stopping at all stations to Lancaster and a through train overnight to Euston leaving Workington about 19:00, picking up sleeping cars at Barrow, arriving Euston about 04:30. The last time I saw this train depart it was hauled by Britannia 70018 newly transferred from Cardiff Canton.
This train was also the first electric hauled train into Euston on November 12th 1965.
No Sunday service anywhere along the Coast between Carlisle and Barrow.
Even after the opening of the Wigton bypass, the A596 from Workington to Carlisle is a poor road to travel daily and that encourages commuters to use train to/from Carlisle.
Certainly nuclear traffic will have been a fairly significant part - you can't be transporting that by road down relatively dangerous single carriageway roads through villages.
Certainly nuclear traffic will have been a fairly significant part - you can't be transporting that by road down relatively dangerous single carriageway roads through villages.
Penrith already has good public transport links to the lakes by existing relatively frequent regular bus services to Derwentwater and Ullswater. This is publicised by the station name of Penrith North Lakes, formerly Penrith for Ullswater.
Might be slightly off topic, but having used the express bus from Keswick to Penrith I don't understand why this kind of fast, dedicated bus link has never been considered a core part of the rail network for places like this? I appreciate that bus and rail privatisation ruled out the possibility for this in the 80s, but it doesn't seem that BR were particularly bothered about it before then either. Just because a place can't justify a rail reopening, should not mean that its only link should be a slow stopping service to the nearest town that might itself have a poor rail service. I know there are individual buses in some regions that fulfil this role, but they seem like something that should be managed in co-ordination with and integrated to the railway network to provide a whole network service between major railheads and their rail free hinterlands.
Might be slightly off topic, but having used the express bus from Keswick to Penrith I don't understand why this kind of fast, dedicated bus link has never been considered a core part of the rail network for places like this? I appreciate that bus and rail privatisation ruled out the possibility for this in the 80s, but it doesn't seem that BR were particularly bothered about it before then either. Just because a place can't justify a rail reopening, should not mean that its only link should be a slow stopping service to the nearest town that might itself have a poor rail service. I know there are individual buses in some regions that fulfil this role, but they seem like something that should be managed in co-ordination with and integrated to the railway network to provide a whole network service between major railheads and their rail free hinterlands.
"RailLinks" services were tried in the 1990s and were (in some places) exactly that, e.g. the MK1 Milton Keynes-Luton Airport which was "born" as a dedicated service - the driver even issued tickets from a SPORTIS machine initially!
They didn't really take off back then (though some proved themselves, e.g. the Midland Mainline Corby shuttle proved itself and contributed to the rail reopening) but I think they would more these days with journey planners being popular.
I think Wales is one to watch here - they do seem to be shuffling Trawscymru slowly in that sort of direction.
Might be slightly off topic, but having used the express bus from Keswick to Penrith I don't understand why this kind of fast, dedicated bus link has never been considered a core part of the rail network for places like this? I appreciate that bus and rail privatisation ruled out the possibility for this in the 80s, but it doesn't seem that BR were particularly bothered about it before then either. Just because a place can't justify a rail reopening, should not mean that its only link should be a slow stopping service to the nearest town that might itself have a poor rail service. I know there are individual buses in some regions that fulfil this role, but they seem like something that should be managed in co-ordination with and integrated to the railway network to provide a whole network service between major railheads and their rail free hinterlands.
There are plenty of countries where such bus links are very much integrated into the railway network. It just requires the political will to make it happen but that also needs people to make it an issue with their (prospective) elected representatives.
Whitehaven to Barrow has the particular advantage that the Furness Railway built a (relatively) direct line where the roads were and are circuitous, primarily for freight I suspect.
The Keswick route would also (I assume) have had some through coast-to-coast freight until the Stainmore route closed around 1962.
Whitehaven to Barrow has the particular advantage that the Furness Railway built a (relatively) direct line where the roads were and are circuitous, primarily for freight I suspect.
The Keswick route would also (I assume) have had some through coast-to-coast freight until the Stainmore route closed around 1962.
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