Reopen Penrith to Workington via Keswick

[TheBeard]

Windermere only caters for a small amount of the footfall which is mostly in heave 4x4s

 

[yoyothehobo]

I always think of Garforth when looking at these new proposals. Garforth is well served by northern between 2 major cities (York and Leeds) and can act as a park and ride. It has a population of about 15,000 and gets 440k per year.

The journey is sub 15 mins to Leeds and sub 25 to York and is quicker than driving to either.

I dont see how Ripon can claim to get 50% passengers than that when it is worse on every metric. (Journey time, frequency, distance to places people want to go, population of places people want to go).

The same applies for Keswick. It would be in the middle of the route between 2 places that already have a rail service, but are hardly big population centres.

Anyway, my mind is coloured by the fact there is a lot of money wasted on extremely poor value for money rail schemes that would be 100% new build, regardless of whatever existed in the distant past and actually spend the money on fixing/upgrading/renewing the infrastructure that is in use.

 

[Neptune]

Anyway, my mind is coloured by the fact there is a lot of money wasted on extremely poor value for money rail schemes that would be 100% new build, regardless of whatever existed in the distant past and actually spend the money on fixing/upgrading/renewing the infrastructure that is in use.

The problem is that some people want the railways back to how they were 60 years ago, haemorrhaging even more money than back then due to the shift in how people travel (home working losing by far the largest proportion of the railway’s income), private car ownership (let’s face the reality, people will not give their cars up to visit remote national parks for a train that would take them to only a handful of locations) and seasonal demand (I drive to the Lakes regularly and even the main tourist towns are pretty empty between October and March).

Some argue points better than others, some even come up with figures (although these always seem to be on the very low side, I suspect taken from figures from 20+ years ago they refuse to let go of and when told by the experts on here what the actual costs would be just stick their fingers in their ears) but what none of them can tell us is how this is all going to be paid for, how long they will take to return the costs and most importantly of all, who is going to pay for it. It’s the old Magic Money Tree which as the rest of us all know doesn’t really exist (they’ll always make some veiled attempt to cover it all up by comparing it to roads as they have an anti-personal transport agenda) and never see simply achievable and affordable things like solid bus connections to the trains keep the public transport links in place as an answer (snobbery against buses and their users most likely?)

 

[InkyScrolls]

Northern have said that they would introduce a Leeds to Middlesbrough train via Harrogate to connect both spheres of their operation which currently are separate and LNER will extend their Kings Cross-Harrogate services to Newcastle.

Do you have a source for that? Also they aren't separate - Carlisle links them.

Have you used the Penrith-Workington bus? I have... [It] was not busy and most had alighted at the villages on the way so was almost empty by the time we reached Keswick.

Remind me how this proves a business case for a for more expensive mode of transport, both to build and operate?

 

[wilbers]

The key post in this thread for future changes is #116 - integrated train/bus to Keswick tickets, with right to catch train after booked train if bus is delayed. That would improve things for passengers and wouldn't cost much.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you know for a fact that Keswick-Penrith has a poor business case?

I do. It’s appalling when real world numbers are used.

You cannot take the Ripon-Harrogate and Ripon-Northallerton as separate entities, they are linked.

Of course you can. You may not want to, and it is possible that taking them together produces a better case than the sum of the two parts. But you can take them seperately.

Also, plug construction costs of £30m per km for the railway, and operating costs of £20 per train mile (very rough, low end train operating costs for a branch line) into the 20 year old business case and see what it does.

Have you used the Penrith-Workington bus? I have as soon as the line closed.

I have, recently. Fairly well used. Good journey time. Picked me up in the middle of Keswick (which the train can’t) and dropped me about 10 metres away from my train to London.

Have you used it in the last few years?

 

[waverley47]

Do you know for a fact that Keswick-Penrith has a poor business case? Has one been done?

For the sake of argument, what do you think the BCR will look like, how much do you think it will cost and how much revenue or other miscellaneous benefit do you think it would garner.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Don't defend Beeching. He was ignorant of many things to do with Ripon revenue. As well as not counting the army traffic which is still as great to-day but all goes by road including coach after coach of troop movements, many Ripon daily rail commuters worked for BR in York using official passes which again were not bought in Ripon but were issued in York.

The Army site in Ripon is Claro Barracks. It is due to close in 2026.

 

[Killingworth]

The Army site in Ripon is Claro Barracks. It is due to close in 2026.

Reopening the branch to Catterick Camp (now Catterick Garrison) never seems to get mentioned Probably because its very growth and attendant road infrastruture blocks most of the former track bed.

 

[JKF]

Making a case for a route based on possible use for diversions is analogous to buying another car in case your main car breaks down or is in for a service. Nobody is going to throw ten grand of their own on a second car just for this, they’ll take a bus for the day or just not bother travelling.

Anyhow, someone should start a topic on Ripon-Harrogate as we’ve not had that one for a while. Might be pertinent as there’s a good chance they will not have an anti-rail MP in a few weeks time!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Making a case for a route based on possible use for diversions is analogous to buying another car in case your main car breaks down or is in for a service. Nobody is going to throw ten grand of their own on a second car just for this, they’ll take a bus for the day or just not bother travelling.

Anyhow, someone should start a topic on Ripon-Harrogate as we’ve not had that one for a while. Might be pertinent as there’s a good chance they will not have an anti-rail MP in a few weeks time!

I suspect having a supportive LA is more useful over the longer term. But the area in question now has a unitary authority with "control" continuing to be in Northallerton. If anything finding the financial support for Harrogate-Ripon may now be slightly more difficult than before.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Back in the 50s and 60s Keswick and Ullswater were favoured from Newcastle, Windermere far more so from Lancashire.

yes, a through Newcastle train over Stainmore to Keswick with restaurant car on summer Sundays. More recently were coach services; and Scots frequently visit the northern Lakes area. I also read of a through service Leeds to Keswick via the Ingleton line ... surprising more use wasn't made of the Apppleby connection.

 

[Killingworth]

yes, a through Newcastle train over Stainmore to Keswick with restaurant car on summer Sundays. More recently were coach services; and Scots frequently visit the northern Lakes area. I also read of a through service Leeds to Keswick via the Ingleton line ... surprising more use wasn't made of the Apppleby connection.

I'd be interested to hear any details of a service from Newcastle to Keswick via Stainmore.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Sorry if this has already been asked but what's the case for this project? Is there just a local case or is there a wider regional case? For example, would there just be local services or would they run through from elsewhere? Obviously if you're coming from the WCML then capacity is an issue there. Would there be any freight trains? What sort of specifications would you be looking at? There's no point reopening just using the old alignment at 60mph as that wouldn't be faster than road.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2024 ==

So I'm sure this is not the first time this has been covered in this forum so I added a little extra for new discussion!

Reopening the Penrith to Keswick line but then continuing it on through Cockermouth and to Workington.

Here is the general outlook for both sections. (Red is the alternative "new" route around Bassenthwaite lake that does not follow the old alignment - the thicker yellow section is a tunnel proposal as the old alignment now forms the A66 and is a vital road link to the area)

The entire route would be built using only ERTMS signalling, not colour light, this is the save on infrastructure and improve line speed. View attachment 158421

The route from Penrith to Keswick is the "easiest" section of the line to build. Much of the old bed has been protected and therefore there would be very little clearance before work could begin. However, the first section:

View attachment 158422

This is slightly different from the original, which can still be seen looping around Newbiggin to the North, becoming coming back down between Newbiggin and Greystoke Gill. It's a rather superfluous section so this proposal calls to create a straight section of track, next to the A66 instead, ideally shortening journey times. Again following much of the old alignment, it would require 2 small bridges that go over B-roads that connect to the A66, along with the junction being built to the West Coast Mainline, most of which the old areas are still intact.

This next section would require a larger bridge over the A66 itself, again using the old embankments which are still, for the most part, intact.

View attachment 158423

The next stage would be following the route into Keswick. Using the old alignment that has been saved for this very reason. A new station could be built or even half of the old one could be bought back and used. The leisure centre at the end of the old line has now gone out of business, therefore, as part of this, it is one of the few large buildings that would need to be demolished for the line to continue onto Cockermouth and Workington.

View attachment 158424
View attachment 158425

From here, its the same as the old route until the A66 Roundabout on the outskirts of Keswick. However it would require some minimal land buyback as a section is now a single house's back garden.

View attachment 158426

This is where the proposal diverges. For now we will follow the original route, or the yellow route. Which tracks west of Bassenthwaite Lake, following more or less the original alignment. However with some bridges needed to cross the A66 in several places.

What really holds up this particular proposal is that there is no room around the lake to build the line without some form of tunnelling, which would considerably increase the cost of the line. It is therefore not the preferred option. But I left it in if someone wanted to make a case for it.

View attachment 158427

View attachment 158428

This would then join back to the area in which the A66 diverges from the old alignment towards Cockermouth.
View attachment 158430

Much of the old track bed has been built over in Cockermouth however there is just enough space to create a line through the town, leaving a station is an easily accessible area without having to demolish much at all. In fact the station could be located reasonably close to where the original was.

The line then cuts across the A66 roundabout until it picks up the original alignment all the way to Workington.

An estimated cost for this would be somewhere in the region of £500m-£780m, with the lower amount hoping to save on infrastructure that is needed with colour light signals. Instead relying on in-cab signalling with ETCS.

The red line is a relatively simple one and I can't include photos as I can only include 9, but it follows the route of the recent Water Works that has scarred the landscape in that area, showing that a straight route could be plotted in that area. It may also be the better route, as it would be cheaper than tunnelling through one of the fells.

The business case is clear, tourism is a major part of the lake district and link West Cumbria to the Lakes is important for the regions economic growth and would allow for a much easier spread of jobs west than is currently possible.

EDIT: I'd even suggest, although I think this to be unlikely, reopening of the Eamont Junction (South facing at Penrith), you could run trains from Manchester and London to Workington and through Keswick, express, a little like the Windermere branch now. Going even further the opening of a spur to Appleby (much of the track bed remains intact), it could even be a diversionary route for trains on the WCML, making the destination of Keswick more appealing.

Stations along the line would be:

Penrith - Stainton - Threlkeld - Keswick - Cockermouth - Brigham - Workington

Let me know what you all think!

Interestingly Gareth Dennis proposed a new Penrith-Darlington line which would roughly parallel the A66. Maybe it could be tied in with that to provide another transpennine route? Also, maybe you could have a spur from Cockermouth that turns north west and connects on to the Cumbrian Coast line to allow trains to Carlisle

 

[waverley47]

Why

Sorry if this has already been asked but what's the case for this project? Is there just a local case or is there a wider regional case? For example, would there just be local services or would they run through from elsewhere? Obviously if you're coming from the WCML then capacity is an issue there. Would there be any freight trains? What sort of specifications would you be looking at? There's no point reopening just using the old alignment at 60mph as that wouldn't be faster than road.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2024 ==


Interestingly Gareth Dennis proposed a new Penrith-Darlington line which would roughly parallel the A66. Maybe it could be tied in with that to provide another transpennine route? Also, maybe you could have a spur from Cockermouth that turns north west and connects on to the Cumbrian Coast line to allow trains to Carlisle

Why?

The Settle and Tyne Valley lines are criminally underutilised. Where does the demand come from on a line from Darlington to Penrith. That's utter insanity.

 

[Falcon1200]

For example, would there just be local services or would they run through from elsewhere?

Should the line ever be rebuilt, just to Keswick even, the service would be a shuttle from Penrith, with the odd train running from or to Carlisle; This would certainly apply for the first and last trains as Carlisle would be the operational base. However, it is very unlikely ever to happen.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry if this has already been asked but what's the case for this project?

There isn’t one.

Interestingly Gareth Dennis proposed a new Penrith-Darlington line which would roughly parallel the A66.

As I said upthread, there’s a reason the Stainmore line (which follows much of that route) opened, and then closed. The history of that line is explained superbly in a recent book on the subject. It’s not going to be built.

 

[The Prisoner]

Had noticed Keswick buses had appeared in departure boards from Penrith, and now we have through ticketing

Lake District town added as a virtual railway station to journey planners (links to railadvent)

Lake District town added as a virtual railway station to journey planners

Avanti West Coast and Stagecoach have launched an integrated rail and bus ticket that allows visitors to travel by rail and bus in Cumbria and the Lake District using just a single ticket.
With the new initiative, Avanti West Coast has added Keswick as a destination to railway journey planners and comes as Stagecoach has doubled the frequency of services between Penrith and Keswick to every 30 minutes.

Tourist board, Cumbria Tourism, has worked with Avanti West Coast and Stagecoach on a “Go Car Free” campaign to make it easy for visitors to enjoy a more sustainable holiday in the heart of the Lakes without a car.

The initiative also supports Cumbria Tourism's Go Car Free campaign for greener journeys.

By creating Keswick as a virtual railway station, travellers can view the timings of train and bus departures and book a single fully integrated ticket for their entire journey.
The tickets are available for travel on Avanti West Coast services to Penrith (gateway to the North Lakes) and Stagecoach X4 and X5 bus services to Keswick.

Stagecoach X4 and X5 bus services to Keswick depart from outside Penrith railway station, and travellers with an integrated ticket need pay only an additional £2 on top of the cost of their train fare.
The introduction of the new integrated tickets follows the provision of an electric bike (e-bike) hire service with free delivery and collection at Penrith.

Integrated train and bus tickets can be booked up to 12 weeks before travelling on weekdays, and up to eight weeks for weekends at www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk.

Transport for the North is currently looking at a project to reconnect Penrith with Keswick.

We're proud to serve the gateway to the Lakes and play our part in enabling visitors to reach this beautiful part of the world more easily.
By bringing together rail and bus travel, entire journeys can now be completed with just one ticket – supporting Cumbria Tourism's car free campaign. Whether you're visiting the Lakes for the day or a weekend away, the integrated ticket means you have everything you need for your journey before you board, so it's even easier to make greener travel choices.
We hope it will inspire more people to ditch the car and take the train and bus before exploring the region's beautiful scenery on foot or public transport.
Sarah Copley, Executive Director of Commercial at Avanti West Coast

We are delighted that Avanti West Coast along with Stagecoach have created this integrated ticket. Keswick is such a great and popular town to visit, so for visitors to be able to seamlessly book tickets that transfer them from their point of origin right into the heart of the town sits perfectly alongside our Destination Management Plan Vision for Cumbria to become Britain's most sustainable rural destination.
Providing easy car-free connections not only supports this vision but also facilitates even more relaxing, enjoyable, inclusive and welcoming ways to visit and enjoy great Cumbrian experiences and hospitality.
Gill Haigh, Managing Director at Cumbria Tourism

We are delighted to be working in partnership on this joint ticketing initiative. It is a real step change in helping people to visit this beautiful part of the world in a sustainable way and makes travelling by bus and train easier than it has been before.
Tom Waterhouse, Managing Director for Stagecoach Cumbria & North Lancashire,

 

[wilbers]

Just had a look on trainline and the destination isn't there yet. Checked this forums booking system and the destination is there now (KWK) but itineraries aren't available yet so tickets not yet available to book. I wonder when that will change?

 

[Bletchleyite]

View attachment 160487

Just had a look on trainline and the destination isn't there yet. Checked this forums booking system and the destination is there now (KWK) but itineraries aren't available yet so tickets not yet available to book. I wonder when that will change?

It appears to be Keswick Bus Station that you need (KWK). It isn't there on Trainline. That other one is from the previous RailLinks incarnation of this.

It does produce fares (at £2 + Penrith fare) on Avanti's website.

The fares are in brfares.com so I'm not sure why the Forum site doesn't pick it up. Is it perhaps using a different timetable feed?

Interestingly it's done as through fares rather than an add-on, so a full set aren't available (Northern for instance haven't done any for theirs). You need to pick a destination where Avanti set the fare.

 

[Killingworth]

Having completed a recent trip Manchester-Penrith-Keswick-Windermere-Oxenholme-Manchester this new ticketing initiative is excellent news. It's a fairly easy journey to make with many potential stop off points through the Lakes.

The frequent buses are good and should be tried by any who think restoring the old railway could be remotely viable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Very pleased that this has happened. I am sure that it is in no way because I suggested it on these very pages many years ago.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It’s an ideal case for a proper ‘rail-bus’ link.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s an ideal case for a proper ‘rail-bus’ link.

I'm not sure there's any need to duplicate the perfectly good bus that's already there - just include it in railway ticketing and timetabling.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure there's any need to duplicate the perfectly good bus that's already there - just include it in railway ticketing and timetabling.

I‘d argue that it would be better if the link was non stop from Penrith to Keswick, which would leave the local intermediate stops short, but there‘s an easy way round that.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

I‘d argue that it would be better if the link was non stop from Penrith to Keswick, which would leave the local intermediate stops short, but there‘s an easy way round that.

Express bus Penrith-Keswick-Cockermouth-Workingon/Whitehaven might wash its face.

There is a good market from the coast to Cockermouth and vice-versa although I’m not sure about the Keswick-Cockermouth leg.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Express bus Penrith-Keswick-Cockermouth-Workingon/Whitehaven might wash its face.

You mean like the existing X4/5? I suppose you could run one hourly that didn't go through the villages, but they don't add much time on and tourists etc do want to go to them (e.g. Threlkeld for Blencathra).

I do miss the old coach vehicles, a city bus with posh seats doesn't offer the quality and luggage/cycle capacity of a coach, though admittedly the improved accessibility might outweigh that.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm not sure there's any need to duplicate the perfectly good bus that's already there - just include it in railway ticketing and timetabling.

I wasn’t suggesting anything extra or duplicative. I was seeking to give a thumbs up to the through ticketing for existing services discussed in previous posts.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

You mean like the existing X4/5?

Just had a look at the timetable for that.

Might take advantage of the £2 fares and do the full route.

 

[zwk500]

A bit disappointed to see it marketed as a 'virtual train station' as it still hints to a fear of being honest about integrated transport including buses. However extremely good to see it being done, now to get more fares added in (ideally just have it as an extra add on so anywhere with a fare to Penrith also has a fare to Keswick), and advertise it strongly. Hopefully it's a roaring success (you'd think there's plenty of trade for it over the summer) and then it will foster more rail-bus links elsewhere around the country.