Does anybody not fly?

[takno]

Well I'm doing 12 Flights in just over a month on my current run....

GLA-SOU Twice
GLA-BHX
EDI-LHR
EDI-LHR-BLQ (Bologna)

All Return some on EasyJet , some on BA.

As people have alluded to living in Scotland means it's often cheaper, always quicker and more practical especially going beyond our shores. All my trips are for leisure.

BA can connect you to the World from EDI or GLA via LHR.

Once you hit Silver Status a lot of the downsides of Flying disappear - IE Free Exit Row Seats, Good Free Baggage Allowance, Free fast Track Security and Free Lounge Access all over the world.

As I walk past the crowded food outlets with people taking out a mortgage to buy a breakfast at EDI I thank my lucky stars it's all free and unlimited in the BA Lounge.

Travelling in Economy all you get is a crap miniscule snack and bottle of water, but the more resourceful amongst us, organise a BOB (that's bring on board not buy on board) from the lounge.

I go somewhere in Europe once a month for a few days which normally costs around £300 odd from EDI including a couple of Nights in a decent Hotel from BA Holidays.

If there are any travel disruptions they have a special number to ring and you are quickly put up in a hotel and or moved to another flight quite quickly.

The words I hate most are "Air Traffic Control Restrictions at Heathrow Airport" which are all to frequent unfortunately.

When I'm travelling on EasyJet I look wistfully at the BA Lounges at GLA or EDI knowing what I am missing out on

When work was paying I used to have lounge status on both One World and Star Alliance. Overall I'd have to say I got a lot more value out of the Star Alliance one.

BA make you connect in Heathrow for absolutely everything, typically via the rather miserable terminal 5. Their lounges have an alright range of booze, and a range of food that's slightly less inspiring than bringing a piece from home. If I was willing to spend money on the airport I would probably buy something nice from one of the many restaurants in the main lounge, or if I was feeling flush I'd buy access to the aspire lounge for 25 quid. Spending a fortune on BA flights, just to be shunted via Heathrow and forced to share a plane with a bunch of people who think M&S is posh, doesn't enter into the list of options at all.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I used to fly from London (don't live too far from Gatwick) to Glasgow and Edinburgh but switched to the train a few years ago. But now I'm currently en route from Euston to Edinbrugh on a cheap LNW-Avanti deal and, having endured not one but two hour-long waits at Crewe and Preston due to missed connections, it'll definitely be back to the plane for me next time. The trains have mostly been packed out. Flying wouldn't have been much more expensive than the cheapo train deal and direct Avanti trains robably more exppensive, and that's with a Senior Railcard.

I really wouldn't feel guilty about flying, if train travel can't be made a reliable and pleasant alternative. I flew to the Isle of Man from Gatwick for my last holiday. Sure, I could have done the train and ferry, but it would have cost the same in money terms and, more importantly, would have lost me two days of my holiday.

 

[Starmill]

In 2023, I made use of three flights. All were a necessity in order to cross the Irish Sea, two on Ryanair and one on Easyjet. Without these I wouldn't have been able to make the journey I needed to make at all. My other three cross-Irish Sea journeys I made by Stena Line.

Long term I would like to see a great deal more progress on decarbonisation of the ferry services, and an enhanced service such as an extra pair of sailings at peak times, a Liverpool - Dublin service, and a dedicated bus from Liverpool Lime Street and city centre to the foot passenger terminal in Birkenhead. These should have a public subsidy if necessary. I would also like to see a feasibility study for conversion to electric air services between Liverpool / Manchester / Glasgow Airports and Belfast / Dublin Airports. Again this may be a good use of public money, to at least understand costs and scale a bit better. Sometimes these flows only see the aircraft actually in the air for 45 minutes or so. Aberdeen - Kirkwall and various other short Loganair routes, plus all routes to Isle of Man Airport could also be in scope.

 

[Cloud Strife]

But, especially since Covid, there are hardly any cheap crossings.

Yes, I remember how it was quite routine to pick up a day trip return to Calais from Dover for around a tenner with a car and even with wine thrown in.

I'd like to take a trip to the UK by car, but when a 90-120 minute return sea journey costs the same as driving to Split, it's just a no-brainer to avoid it, especially when it's still perfectly possible to fly to the UK for around 50 pounds return with large cabin luggage.

One interesting question is why Channel crossings have become so expensive despite the return of Duty Free and fairly intense competition.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

I would also like to see a feasibility study for conversion to electric air services between Liverpool / Manchester / Glasgow Airports and Belfast / Dublin Airports. Again this may be a good use of public money, to at least understand costs and scale a bit better. Sometimes these flows only see the aircraft actually in the air for 45 minutes or so. Aberdeen - Kirkwall and various other short Loganair routes, plus all routes to Isle of Man Airport could also be in scope.

Aberdeen-Kirkwall would be difficult as it's mostly over water, but certainly the Orkney inter-island flights could easily be converted, as could Kirkwall-Inverness.

What could make sense is to launch routes like Belfast City-Prestwick with very intense frequencies to compensate for the low amount of passengers. It would need some rethinking of how we look at security, but a system where you have electric planes going every 15-30 minutes on planes with a capacity of 19 passengers with a single pilot could be a gamechanger.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would have said you are doing reasonably well if you manage to pay £2 per Tier Point earned, so you are looking at approximately £1200 in total. But of course, it is possible to earn it having spent less, as there are various offers and tricks of the trade.

The double tier point offer if you book a BA holiday of at least five nights’ duration certainly helps people get up to silver.

Also agree that 40 flights a year absolutely sounds frequent to me

I would agree.

I live on an island and the best way of leaving is on the plane, and even I’ve only done 8 flights this year so far.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

One interesting question is why Channel crossings have become so expensive despite the return of Duty Free and fairly intense competition.

I think the rise of cheap airline tickets has affected pricing. You can still get very good deals as a foot passenger, but the second you add a car the cost ramps right up. I think the ferry companies have twigged that people bringing a car are doing it because they have made a deliberate choice to do so, and therefore the price can reflect that.

We see that here with the Steam Packet, a foot passenger return to Liverpool can be yours for £60-£70, but add a car and the cost goes up to £300.

 

[Butts]

Yes, I remember how it was quite routine to pick up a day trip return to Calais from Dover for around a tenner with a car and even with wine thrown in.

I'd like to take a trip to the UK by car, but when a 90-120 minute return sea journey costs the same as driving to Split, it's just a no-brainer to avoid it, especially when it's still perfectly possible to fly to the UK for around 50 pounds return with large cabin luggage.

One interesting question is why Channel crossings have become so expensive despite the return of Duty Free and fairly intense competition.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==



Aberdeen-Kirkwall would be difficult as it's mostly over water, but certainly the Orkney inter-island flights could easily be converted, as could Kirkwall-Inverness.

What could make sense is to launch routes like Belfast City-Prestwick with very intense frequencies to compensate for the low amount of passengers. It would need some rethinking of how we look at security, but a system where you have electric planes going every 15-30 minutes on planes with a capacity of 19 passengers with a single pilot could be a gamechanger.

When we were in the EU you could bring back as many cigarettes' as you liked purchased in the Country you were visiting with Duty Paid ( A normal shop)

Now in theory you are restricted to the 200 Duty Free.

The Tax paid price in many EU States is cheaper than the Duty Free price at say - Heathrow Airport- see the problem ?

Talking of Dover to Calais it amuses me the opprobrium P&O faced when they sacked all the UK Staff and hired foreigners, this merely put them into line with their main competitor Irish Ferries who did the same long before and seemed to slip under the radar.

 

[Gloster]

Talking of Dover to Calais it amuses me the opprobrium P&O faced when they sacked all the UK Staff and hired foreigners, this merely put them into line with their main competitor Irish Ferries who did the same long before and seemed to slip under the radar.

I don’t think that Irish Ferries are seen as a long-established British ‘name’ company that should care about its traditions. And dumping 700+ employees on the beach with only the bare minimum notice is not seen as the actions of a reasonable employer with ‘heritage’.

 

[Butts]

I don’t think that Irish Ferries are seen as a long-established British ‘name’ company that should care about its traditions. And dumping 700+ employees on the beach with only the bare minimum notice is not seen as the actions of a reasonable employer with ‘heritage’.

DP World based in Dubai own P&O Ferries whereas irish Ferries is owned by Irish Continental Group based in ireland.

So a foreign owner sees what a European and EU based owner does and replicates ?

 

[Gloster]

DP World based in Dubai own P&O Ferries whereas irish Ferries is owned by Irish Continental Group based in ireland.

So a foreign owner sees what a European and EU based owner does and replicates ?

To make it clear: it is my opinion that P&O was and is seen as a British ’flagship’ company with a British history and traditions. Most people did not know that it was Dubai based and only uses its British history as a marketing technique, so they are angry when they see a ‘British’ company do this. Irish Ferries are not likely, given their name, to be seen as a British company.

It is not the facts: it is the perception.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Talking of Dover to Calais it amuses me the opprobrium P&O faced when they sacked all the UK Staff and hired foreigners, this merely put them into line with their main competitor Irish Ferries who did the same long before and seemed to slip under the radar.

Irish Ferries did it a long time ago and people forget. But the dispute back in 2005 was exceptionally bitter, didn’t Isle of Inishmore and Ulysses get barricaded in Wales for something like a month?

 

[route101]

I stopped flying a few years ago as I prefer the train just wondering if anybody else prefers the boat or train? Does anybody here travel round Europe without flying? I have never been able to fly long haul. I once flew to Berlin but my goal is to visit it by rail this year.

I have been looking at doing ferry and train routes in Europe to make my travels more interesting.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't tend to fly if I can avoid it. The last time I visited the Continent, I used the train and that's by far my preferred way of doing it.

I had an emergency landing a few years ago and lots who know me assume I'm scared of flying as a result.

In truth, I have flown since, however I'm not fond of the rigmarole of flying and am not particularly fussed about going abroad, so I don't bother.

 

[Starmill]

I do think that there's a high chance if you're using an airport in the summer holiday season you'll have a dreadful experience. It may be airport specific of course but that's not really the point as most people simply use the airport which is most practical for them to get to and from. They're therefore stuck with whatever security experience, queues, facilities and so on that one has. Some airports make London Euston on Friday afternoon look tame. Some others are relatively small and relaxed. The downside of international rail is that London St Pancras has a dreadful customer experience when it's running at capacity too. When it's not, it's better than a typical airport.

 

[yorksrob]

I do think that there's a high chance if you're using an airport in the summer holiday season you'll have a dreadful experience. It may be airport specific of course but that's not really the point as most people simply use the airport which is most practical for them to get to and from. They're therefore stuck with whatever security experience, queues, facilities and so on that one has. Some airports make London Euston on Friday afternoon look tame. Some others are relatively small and relaxed. The downside of international rail is that London St Pancras has a dreadful customer experience when it's running at capacity too. When it's not, it's better than a typical airport.

I think I was lucky when I used St P as it was pre-Covid and pretty hassle free (Even though I did get my bag searched on the way back in - I just look naturally shifty !).

 

[Starmill]

To make it clear: it is my opinion that P&O was and is seen as a British ’flagship’ company with a British history and traditions. Most people did not know that it was Dubai based and only uses its British history as a marketing technique, so they are angry when they see a ‘British’ company do this. Irish Ferries are not likely, given their name, to be seen as a British company.

It is not the facts: it is the perception.

Indeed. I think a lot of Irish people probably thought the same about Irish Ferries back when they were told they'd be re-flagging the fleet to Cyprus.

Irish Ferries did it a long time ago and people forget. But the dispute back in 2005 was exceptionally bitter, didn’t Isle of Inishmore and Ulysses get barricaded in Wales for something like a month?

Yup. It was bitter alright:

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions voted last night for a national day of protest against the company. The protest will take place on December 9 and will include a march from Parnell Square in Dublin, and other rallies around the country.

After the decision, Congress general secretary David Begg said: "We're calling on all members of the public - trade union members and non members alike - to join our protest. This is a matter of serious public concern - it could determine what sort of society we are creating for our children."

Ireland's largest union, SIPTU, whose members are preventing the Irish Ferries vessels sailing, said there was huge public support for the workers.

The union's marine branch secretary, Paul Smyth, said he hoped the rallies would be supported by the public as well as unions and organisations, and would be an opportunity to show the government the depth of feeling on the issue in the country.

Irish Ferries crisis deepens as workers dig in

A bitter industrial crisis involving Irish Ferries deepened last night after the removal of security personnel from two ships in Wales failed to bring a breakthrough in negotiations.

www.theguardian.com

 

[yorksrob]

To make it clear: it is my opinion that P&O was and is seen as a British ’flagship’ company with a British history and traditions. Most people did not know that it was Dubai based and only uses its British history as a marketing technique, so they are angry when they see a ‘British’ company do this. Irish Ferries are not likely, given their name, to be seen as a British company.

It is not the facts: it is the perception.

Symptomatic of the decline of Western economies due to laissez-faire economics.

If there was one part of the City of London's business I'd love to see clamped down on more than any other, it's the take-over and mergers sector.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If there was one part of the City of London's business I'd love to see clamped down on more than any other, it's the take-over and mergers sector.

Always been the way, the big fish eat the little ones.

The real problem has long been leveraged takeovers. It's why so many successful businesses have very quickly gone to the wall, the hedge funders load the business up with debt to fund the dividends and waltz off into the sunset when the business fails to repay the debts on time. Unpaid staff wages and redundancy payments being paid by the taxpayer through the National Insurance Fund.

Shipping has always been particularly prone to it though, because of its international nature. Registering a ship in Nassau or Larnaca and using that as the justification for paying developing-country wages isn't new, Sea Containers and then Stena were doing it with the Sealink company back in the 80s and 90s. The Stena Normandy, which shuttled between Southampton and Cherbourg, was registered in Nassau with wages to match.

P&O Ferries have long been similarly loose with their business- the Herald of Free Enterprise was a P&O ship.

 

[yorksrob]

Always been the way, the big fish eat the little ones.

The real problem has long been leveraged takeovers. It's why so many successful businesses have very quickly gone to the wall, the hedge funders load the business up with debt to fund the dividends and waltz off into the sunset when the business fails to repay the debts on time. Unpaid staff wages and redundancy payments being paid by the taxpayer through the National Insurance Fund.

Shipping has always been particularly prone to it though, because of its international nature. Registering a ship in Nassau or Larnaca and using that as the justification for paying developing-country wages isn't new, Sea Containers and then Stena were doing it with the Sealink company back in the 80s and 90s. The Stena Normandy, which shuttled between Southampton and Cherbourg, was registered in Nassau with wages to match.

P&O Ferries have long been similarly loose with their business- the Herald of Free Enterprise was a P&O ship.

The idea that someone can buy a company by piling debt upon it seems particularly abhorrent. It's shocking that its allowed.

 

[Butts]

I do think that there's a high chance if you're using an airport in the summer holiday season you'll have a dreadful experience. It may be airport specific of course but that's not really the point as most people simply use the airport which is most practical for them to get to and from. They're therefore stuck with whatever security experience, queues, facilities and so on that one has. Some airports make London Euston on Friday afternoon look tame. Some others are relatively small and relaxed. The downside of international rail is that London St Pancras has a dreadful customer experience when it's running at capacity too. When it's not, it's better than a typical airport.

Not if you are BA Silver or above, most of the above is mitigated with Fast Track Security and Lounge Access for complimentary drinks and scran.

It certainly is at Edinburgh and using the B Gates Lounge at Heathrow.

 

[miklcct]

Not if you are BA Silver or above, most of the above is mitigated with Fast Track Security and Lounge Access for complimentary drinks and scran.

It certainly is at Edinburgh and using the B Gates Lounge at Heathrow.

It doesn't help when flying with non-oneworld carriers, and a lot of cases I am forced to fly with low-cost carriers because they are the only carriers operating on the route I want.

For example, London - Vilnius is not served by oneworld, London - Gdansk / Palanga / Kaunas / Brno is only served by low cost carriers.

The route coverage of traditional airlines is much less than low-cost carriers.

 

[Starmill]

Not if you are BA Silver or above, most of the above is mitigated with Fast Track Security and Lounge Access for complimentary drinks and scran.

It certainly is at Edinburgh and using the B Gates Lounge at Heathrow.

Well and good if you both have an airport such as those which is conveniently located, and your normal travels would get you the tier points for that.

Not relevant to most people, and you wouldn't go out of your way to get the status just for that benefit.

 

[D7666]

Taking the question literally - no, I do not fly , as yet I have not mastered self propelled flight.

WRT being a passenger on an aircraft then yes - there are all those thousands of numbers to underline for haulage Is there any other reason needed to fly ....... 638 flights on 401 aircraft and still counting

LTN <-> INV earlier this week, midsummer, to go to Kyle and back. Mid summer and to mark 50 and 40 years since first and last previous time been there in 1974 and 1984. No other reason.


Plan A was to do Inverness <-> Kyle Of Lochalsh on mid-summer day (yesterday 20/06/24) but meant flying back Friday (i.e. today) which was keerrchinnng (£148 return sector only) when I looked at the U2 site when booking this a few days ago. So out (£30) and back (£33) flying earlier this week than originally intended.

0ne of the A320s was dud too. Only had 8 U2 A320Neo and I have to get a dud one of course.

158s Kyle and back not bad 82 miles for £22.xx pence.

Not the same ambience as climbing Ravens Rock behind a 26; I only ever had 26s there, first time 12/08/74 (FIFTY years ago) with 26043, last time on a service train 25/09/81 (45 years ago) 26015; last time until now railtour 26021+26038 12/05/84 (forty years ago). Never did it with 37s of any flavour.


On the charge of flying for the sake of it, I plead guilty.


I would never these days have considered such a trip by rail.


Stress free flights and airports, including Luton, but, of course, LTN can be notorious at passport control, but being domestic not that path through the terminal.


PS digression Unimpressed by real ale sampled in Inverness.

 

[johncrossley]

Not if you are BA Silver or above, most of the above is mitigated with Fast Track Security and Lounge Access for complimentary drinks and scran.

It certainly is at Edinburgh and using the B Gates Lounge at Heathrow.

You can still pay for Fast Track Security if you see a long queue. Also you can pay for lounge access.

What choice of complimentary food do you get? It surely can't be as extensive as the choice of food in the airport as a whole, albeit chargeable. Complimentary food is no good if you are a fussy eater and don't like what is on offer.

 

[Butts]

You can still pay for Fast Track Security if you see a long queue. Also you can pay for lounge access.

What choice of complimentary food do you get? It surely can't be as extensive as the choice of food in the airport as a whole, albeit chargeable. Complimentary food is no good if you are a fussy eater and don't like what is on offer.

Have you not been in a BA Lounge ?

Breakfast - Cereals, Yoghurts, Granola et al and the good stuff....

Sausage, Egg, Bacon,Mushrooms,Hash Browns, Black Pudding and Beans.

Orange and other juices ....plus Hot Drinks Tea, Coffee, Cappuccino.

Price it up at Spoons at Edinburgh Airport ...knocking £20 and in the BA Lounge it's help yourself to as much as you want.

Also available Champagne and almost every Alcoholic drink imaginable plus soft drinks.

You can't buy your way into a BA Lounge it's status only. If you pay to get into an Aspire Lounge you will find out why.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

Irish Ferries did it a long time ago and people forget. But the dispute back in 2005 was exceptionally bitter, didn’t Isle of Inishmore and Ulysses get barricaded in Wales for something like a month?

So P&O waited a lot longer, did they get any credit for that in comparison to Irish Ferries ?

 

[Cambus731]

I have only flown 4 times. A round trip from Stansted to Amsterdam in 1999 and another round trip from Stansted, to Salzburg in 2003. I'm not entirely ruling out the possibility that I may fly again sometime, say to Germany, Iceland or Ireland (North or the Republic) but its unlikely to happen for a few years, mainly because I'm still paying £280 every 28 days to my ex until my daughter reaches 18.

 

[notverydeep]

I'm now 55 and have not flown since the age of 15. My main motivation is to avoid significant pre-holiday, pre-flight anxiety about the process, despite my grandfather working for BAe on the development of aircraft such as the 146 and the A310 and A320. And despite knowing that if you confine your flying to main stream jet airliners flown by 'developed world' airlines, the risk of an accident is extremely small. I cannot find clearly referenced statistics on what proportion of the population are similarly anxious, but have seen 40% quoted for studies in the US. Of this group, 60% 'grin and bear it' - they do still fly, as the benefits outweigh the anxiety. Many of the rest don't actively avoid flying, they just never consider activities that require it, so it has little impact. A much smaller number fall into this group, but have very strong work or family related reasons to fly and it is this group that finds the fear limiting or debilitating and may actually seek help to overcome it.

In a way, I have benefited enormously from not flying. I have a strong interest in travel and before I had children, travelled by rail to the Japan and China on several occasions and in 2009, took six months to travel around the world via Australia and New Zealand over land and sea.

As a rail industry worker and someone who enjoys train travel, I am happy that it is certainly better than flying Co2 wise. Not all surface transport is better though: the round the world journey involved both a container ship (good as the 3 passengers were a tiny fraction of the mass of the cargo) and cruise ships, which are absolutely awful (as the emissions from the huge mass of ship, crew and supplies are divided between the passengers). I recommend overland travel as extremely rewarding, but acknowledge that it is both time consuming and can be quite a lot more expensive than the best value flights. I have managed to travel across Europe by train with my daughter, but a family definitely makes travelling for even a few days in a row a challenge that uses a lot of valuable time off, so I wouldn't want to judge people who do a couple of return air journeys a year for leisure.

40 flights a year is very definitely a lot though. There are many sources with similar observations, but for example: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959378020307779 suggests that this number of flights would put someone firmly in 'the one percent of the one percent'...

 

[yorksrob]

40 flights a year is definitely a jetsetter.

I'm quite pleased that there seem to be a few like me who have flown, aren't ruling out flying in the future, but would rather not given the choice

 

[Butts]

40 flights a year is definitely a jetsetter.

I'm quite pleased that there seem to be a few like me who have flown, aren't ruling out flying in the future, but would rather not given the choice

Be brave my friend, Air is the future

 

[yorksrob]

Be brave my friend, Air is the future

I completely understand your re-orientation towards air travel as an indictment of the lack of customer focus and value of the railway system

That said, I just still prefer just sitting on a train and looking out of the window !

It's also the freedom of hopping on a train with a rucksack (and some beer) and ending up in Cornwall twelve hours later !

 

[route101]

I used to try and take the train between Scotland and the South of England but recently the advance fares have hiked to the point where it is cheaper to fly.