DLR ticket officer confrontation

[jumble]

That is highly irregular. They have absolutely no right to confiscate bank cards.

Bit off topic but amusing
When Chip and Pin first came out I paid for some goods at a supermarket using the aforesaid chip and pin so very clearly the bank had authorised the transaction .
The cashier took the card out and noticed that the signature strip was worn out and said they were going to confiscate the card
I don't much like being inconvenienced for no good reason.
I asked if I could have it back to take a closer look
They rather foolishly let me have it whereupon I put it in an inside pocket and then invited them to try and get it back.
Predictably they gave up.

 

[flythetube]

I was stopped by a ticket inspection officer at the bottom of the escalator in the Heron Quays DLR station. I had my headphones in and was reading a book so didn’t immediately see the officer. Upon seeing him realised he need to check my ticket, I reached into my wallet to grab my bank card which I presented. He then turned his body camera on and proceeded to say it had declined. I asked what that meant as I use my bank card all the time to tap on and off as I don’t have an oyster. He asked where I was coming from to which I replied Cutty Sark. He said he needed to fine me a £50 penalty. I asked if I could see my bank card which he was holding as I might have presented the incorrect one, however he wouldn’t let me see it. I asked if I could try my other card in case I had them mixed up and he refused and pushed me to pay the fine. I asked what the alternative was and he said I could appeal but dissuaded me from doing it and asked again how I wanted to pay. I was very frustrated as not only did he not check an alternative card which I could well have tapped, he seemed only interested in getting the £50 fine out of me, regardless of if I was guilty or not. I said that in that case I would like to appeal so he asked for my ID for name and date of birth. I provided the same. He then asked for postcode and flat number which I provided. Then street name which I said there isn’t a street name in the address, however it’s on trafalgar road. He then asked for me to unlock my phone and go in my bank app to which I asked why. He said he wanted to check my address. I said I didn’t understand why he needed my bank app for this especially since I’d just provided my address and he’d taken details from my drivers licence. I think there was some crossed purposes here as his response to my querying the banking app resulted in him asking his colleague who was 10ft away to call for police assistance. I advised that that was unnecessary I had been cooperative, provided name details and he still had my bank card. I said that I was in a rush and i had already repeated all the requested information to him - all that is legally required is name and address of which he had both as well as DOB and my bank card which he refused to give back. I then walked away as I felt the officer was being confrontational and not listening to what I was saying.

The following day I made several calls to several TFL teams to try and appeal or pay any required fine. The first call I made at the following day where I spoke to a lady who advised me I needed to speak to the PCN team direct and gave me their number. I called them and the call message advised that their customer call line won’t be back up until 7th May. Not sure what the issue is there? So I called back two other numbers I found online. The first I was put through to a team and cut off while being transferred. The second going out shortly after of which I was left on hold for 25 minutes with a gentleman and then while on hold (he said he needed to double check something), I was cut off again.

The following day I spoke with ******** at TFL who advised I will be getting a letter within the next week issuing a fine which I can either pay or appeal. I then spoke with *** at London Travelwatch who advised me on complaints procedures and advised that I had acted appropriately. He said I should wait for a letter with any pcn.

What are your thoughts?

This could have been dealt with quickly and courteously at the time.

If as you say, you initially presented the wrong card and you said to the inspector, oh I’m sorry I’ve given you the wrong card, here is the one that I used to touch in, then the Inspector (assuming he/she is aware and has been trained properly) has an option on the RID (Revenue Inspection Device) called COUNTER TAP, which will cancel the last tap and then you can have your other card tapped accordingly.

Counter Tap is used sparingly and should not be used willy nilly, only when circumstances dictate and it appears that it what should have happened here, however the RID would only show that the second card presented was not blocked from the Tfl network and available for use but not if or where you touched in.

Options are DECLINED BY ISSUER, BLOCKED BY TFL or UNSUPPORTED CARD TYPE.

 

[Ducatist4]

Back in my retail days sometimes a card transaction would be referred, so we had to ring the clearing centre. On a couple of occasions they asked me to retain the card (as long as i felt it was safe to do so).

 

[AlterEgo]

- I haven't retained a card I reported as stolen. My phone was stolen amongst other things and as a result they attempted fraud at the time. As a result, my banks recommend I cancel everyhting, even things they hadn't attempted fraud on. Sorry for the confusion.

OK, so they advised you cancel all your cards to, I assume, protect you against the off chance that they would use Apple Pay or details on your phone to defraud you. That makes sense - but you still cancelled the card for fraud protection reasons.

What does not make sense is why, having cancelled your bank card, you retained it for so long, in your wallet, and ended up presenting it to the inspector.

- I presume there will be a record of it on cctv, however I now believe it was using that card in error. My point was at the time he wouldn't let me check if that was the case.

That’s turned out to be immaterial though, as you say you have no record on any “live” card of a tap in, and you concede:

That's correct I can't deny that, the area was crowded with tourists as there are always problems at Cutty Sark DLR and I squeezed past tapped and moved on.

It seems to be the case you did not tap, and hence did not pay the fare.

- I didn't tap out at Heron Quays as my interaction with the ticket officer came at the bottom of the escalator before I got to the tap out box.

Ok, this makes sense - and they noticed the card you presented was declined at this stage.

I only had the card for my records as a precaution but wasn't willing to stay and argue with the officer who wasn't going to give it up or

Sorry, I just find this so hard to believe. You don't need to keep a physical bank card "for your records". It no longer works to pay for things, and it should be cut up and disposed of. I have probably had 60 or 70 card renewals in my life and cannot ever remember needing to keep an old card for any reason. I can't be alone in thinking this is, at the very least, unusual.

Separately, TfL may choose to believe that, if you are not pulling the "exit the system" TikTok scam, you might deliberately not tap in or out of Cutty Sark or Heron Quays, and travel for free on the short journey between these unbarriered stations - and separately, that you keep what you believe is a "dead" card which you hope cannot be read in the event of a revenue inspection.

Did you tell the inspector the card was cancelled?

Your problem now is that, as you have been reported for prosecution, TfL have two options - and only two. Either they will let you off with a warning, or, they will prosecute you for a single Bylaw offence in the Magistrates' Court. There will be no "fine" or penalty fare to pay when they write to you. As you will need to respond to their letter when it comes, you will need to explain exactly what happened - but you should be aware that whatever you write is evidence that is admissible in court.

 

[Templeton96]

Just received the letter through from TfL in the post.

 

[John R]

Given the scepticism expressed here as to what has happened, I suspect TfL will be similarly sceptical that this is an innocent mistake and will thus prosecute. To add to everything already said, they may note that the tendency of those caught without a valid ticket to conveniently be “in a hurry” and walk away, may not help the OP’s case.

 

[Templeton96]

Thanks for this. Unfortunately when touching in at validators it is your responsibility to check that you get a green light and one beep rather than a red one and two beeps, or nothing at all. I know Cutty Sark and if it was noisy on the stairs down where the validators are then you may well have missed what it said.

I think right now you'll have to wait for the verification letter. This will allow you to explain what happened. Come back when you receive it. TfL are normally quite strict with fare evading, but sometimes they do let people off with a warning. There are plenty of people here who will be able to help with your reply.

Moving forward, always use the same card all the time to benefit from any capping available. Take extra care at validators to make sure the card has been accepted. Finally I'd suggest not carrying around any dead cards - keep them safe at home if you need them.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply. This is the letter I’ve received today. Writing a reply as we speak. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Given the scepticism expressed here as to what has happened, I suspect TfL will be similarly sceptical that this is an innocent mistake and will thus prosecute. To add to everything already said, they may note that the tendency of those caught without a valid ticket to conveniently be “in a hurry” and walk away, may not help the OP’s case.

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply. Noted. Any advice on a reply to their letter would be a huge help. Thank you.

 

[MikeWh]

It seems to be the case you did not tap, and hence did not pay the fare.

It seems to be the case that you did not successfully tap, and hence did not pay the fare.

I once didn't realise that a card I was using hadn't registered properly, but I certainly did tap it on the reader. Obviously I was more careful after that, and after experiencing several other errors with my contactless card I adopted the 10° angle rather than flat. Basically I stick one finger just under one edge while placing the opposite edge on the reader. This has yet to fail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2024 ==

Any advice would be much appreciated.

My advice would be to tell the truth. Stick to the facts and try not to go into too much unnecessary detail. Have you got any evidence of using a valid card before the incident? Contactless payment history goes back a year so you ought to be able to provide journey details to support this being a one-off.

However, I stress the most important word here is "truth". Only you know exactly what happened. If you have regularly used this dead card to appear to touch in and out (for CCTV) at ungated DLR stations then it is possible that TfL already know this. I'm not accusing you here, but if what I've suggested is true then you will be better advised to apologise for this incident (which is all they are asking about right now) and offer to co-operate to resolve the matter as quickly as possible. Sadly TfL very rarely settle out of court, but there is no harm in asking.

 

[kristiang85]

As an aside, it sounds like you might well have been distracted from having both headphones in and reading a book whilst walking (from your opening post), which makes it very easy to miss any warnings on the readers if your card was declined. Personally I don't walk around with earphones on at all anymore as I like to be fully aware of my surroundings. (And beyond public transport payments, if I'd had a traumatic mugging such as yourself I'd personally not have my ears and eyes distracted whilst walking around).

 

[DeverseSam]

It no longer works to pay for things, and it should be cut up and disposed of. I have probably had 60 or 70 card renewals in my life and cannot ever remember needing to keep an old card for any reason.

Meanwhile over on Fares Advice & Policy:

Collecting tickets with expired card

Just been to print of tickets for a journey from London to Inverurie tomorrow, to avoid any glitches in the morning and was immediately faced with...a glitch! In the past I've understood that you can use any card to retrieve tickets at a machine, but this was asking for the specific card. That...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Pushpit]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply. This is the letter I’ve received today. Writing a reply as we speak. Any advice would be much appreciated.


Hi John,

Thanks for the reply. Noted. Any advice on a reply to their letter would be a huge help. Thank you.

OK, so with the Verification letter there are 2 aspects - Firstly, was it you, at your address, and other contact details. Secondly did you or did you not pay for your fare. Not much else matters.

If you tapped in, something you have confirmed upthread, then your reply to TfL is "I tapped in, but the TfL agent retained my card before tapping out", if that is the true position. If you did in fact tap out, then you simply show the fare on your bank statement. If you only tapped in, then presumably the maximum fare is showing up on your card account instead. Both will work to simply prove to TfL that you paid for your journey, it's a fairly simple issue.

What is not interesting here is about 90% of the verbiage above about the nature of the interaction, whether the agent went too far or not.

In terms of letter wording, you best put something first, then others can advise. Frankly it's not clear exactly whether the simple issue of fare payment is something you can prove so you can't ask us to write that letter with so many unknowns. If on the other hand you do not see a fare paid, then you best admit guilt and accept that you will get a criminal record and fine. TfL almost always prosecutes, and the few occasions where it does not: very difficult to understand TfL's logic.

 

[John R]

If you tapped in, something you have confirmed upthread, then your reply to TfL is "I tapped in, but the TfL agent retained my card before tapping out", if that is the true position. If you did in fact tap out, then you simply show the fare on your bank statement. If you only tapped in, then presumably the maximum fare is showing up on your card account instead. Both will work to simply prove to TfL that you paid for your journey, it's a fairly simple issue.

I think it's been established that the card used to tap in had been blocked by the bank a long time ago, so I'm not sure that this is particularly helpful.

 

[Pushpit]

I think it's been established that the card used to tap in had been blocked by the bank a long time ago, so I'm not sure that this is particularly helpful.

Yes, I appreciate this, but where I'm trying to lead the OP is to consider simply whether they paid their fare or not. The evidence appears to be not and thus a frank admission of guilt will save him time but probably not a court appearance.

 

[Starmill]

I can't understand how anyone would try to use a card they themselves had reported stolen, and expect it to work? What might lead a person to keep hold of such a card, given any attempt to use it would result in it being declined?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2024 ==

It no longer works to pay for things, and it should be cut up and disposed of. I have probably had 60 or 70 card renewals in my life and cannot ever remember needing to keep an old card for any reason. I can't be alone in thinking this is, at the very least, unusual.

I'm sure the bank would have advised to destroy the card if it were subsequently found or returned at the time they cancelled it for fraud prevention.

 

[Ducatist4]

I keep old cards to use the scrape the ice off my car windscreen. I used my Tesco Clubcard one but it only took 50% of it off.

 

[Elecman]

I keep old cards to use the scrape the ice off my car windscreen. I used my Tesco Clubcard one but it only took 50% of it off.

 

[zero]

I keep all my old cards too, but at home, and can't think of any reason I would bring an old card out with me except for the aforementioned collecting a ToD ticket, or perhaps refunding a faulty/unwanted item bought on that card - which would only be for a maximum of a month after that card became invalid.

 

[dosxuk]

I keep all my old cards too, but at home, and can't think of any reason I would bring an old card out with me except for (snip)

The problem for the OP is that TfL will very quickly think of another reason, and they're going to have to explain this.

 

[Haywain]

The problem for the OP is that TfL will very quickly think of another reason,

You think TfL need to think of another reason?