DLR ticket officer confrontation

[Templeton96]

I was stopped by a ticket inspection officer at the bottom of the escalator in the Heron Quays DLR station. I had my headphones in and was reading a book so didn’t immediately see the officer. Upon seeing him realised he need to check my ticket, I reached into my wallet to grab my bank card which I presented. He then turned his body camera on and proceeded to say it had declined. I asked what that meant as I use my bank card all the time to tap on and off as I don’t have an oyster. He asked where I was coming from to which I replied Cutty Sark. He said he needed to fine me a £50 penalty. I asked if I could see my bank card which he was holding as I might have presented the incorrect one, however he wouldn’t let me see it. I asked if I could try my other card in case I had them mixed up and he refused and pushed me to pay the fine. I asked what the alternative was and he said I could appeal but dissuaded me from doing it and asked again how I wanted to pay. I was very frustrated as not only did he not check an alternative card which I could well have tapped, he seemed only interested in getting the £50 fine out of me, regardless of if I was guilty or not. I said that in that case I would like to appeal so he asked for my ID for name and date of birth. I provided the same. He then asked for postcode and flat number which I provided. Then street name which I said there isn’t a street name in the address, however it’s on trafalgar road. He then asked for me to unlock my phone and go in my bank app to which I asked why. He said he wanted to check my address. I said I didn’t understand why he needed my bank app for this especially since I’d just provided my address and he’d taken details from my drivers licence. I think there was some crossed purposes here as his response to my querying the banking app resulted in him asking his colleague who was 10ft away to call for police assistance. I advised that that was unnecessary I had been cooperative, provided name details and he still had my bank card. I said that I was in a rush and i had already repeated all the requested information to him - all that is legally required is name and address of which he had both as well as DOB and my bank card which he refused to give back. I then walked away as I felt the officer was being confrontational and not listening to what I was saying.

The following day I made several calls to several TFL teams to try and appeal or pay any required fine. The first call I made at the following day where I spoke to a lady who advised me I needed to speak to the PCN team direct and gave me their number. I called them and the call message advised that their customer call line won’t be back up until 7th May. Not sure what the issue is there? So I called back two other numbers I found online. The first I was put through to a team and cut off while being transferred. The second going out shortly after of which I was left on hold for 25 minutes with a gentleman and then while on hold (he said he needed to double check something), I was cut off again.

The following day I spoke with ******** at TFL who advised I will be getting a letter within the next week issuing a fine which I can either pay or appeal. I then spoke with *** at London Travelwatch who advised me on complaints procedures and advised that I had acted appropriately. He said I should wait for a letter with any pcn.

What are your thoughts?

 

[AlterEgo]

Firstly, did you receive any paperwork relating to this? If you did - you’ve been Penalty Fared, and the instructions on how to pay or appeal should be on there.

If not, and you are waiting for a letter, unfortunately it is likely you have been reported for prosecution, and will receive a verification letter soon asking for your side of the story.

Is it true that your card declined? Was there any payment or authorisation recorded on it?

Were you challenged at the start or at the end of your journey?

 

[MikeWh]

Is you bank card (or cards) registered with TfL? If yes, have you checked to see what touches have been recorded? If no, go online and register them now. Journey and payment history for the last 12 months will be available straight away. It would be good to know where you stand, particularly in respect of the day in question.

 

[Templeton96]

Firstly, did you receive any paperwork relating to this? If you did - you’ve been Penalty Fared, and the instructions on how to pay or appeal should be on there.

If not, and you are waiting for a letter, unfortunately you have been reported for prosecution, and will receive a verification letter soon asking for your side of the story.

Is it true that your card declined? Was there any payment or authorisation recorded on it?

Were you challenged at the start or at the end of your journey?

I haven’t received any paperwork yet. This happened on Saturday.

Okay, what is the procedure for this? Who does the letter come from and is the option to pay the fine/appeal still available?

Yes so I presented my bank card that I use for travel on TfL and he said it had declined. I asked how/why that could be as I always use me bank card for travel and asked if I could try my other one in case I had used that to tap on however he wouldn’t let me try it. This I found odd as it seemed he was trying to make money rather than actually catch fare dodgers. He also wouldn’t explain what the declined card meant.

No payment authorisation however I have since used my other bank card on bus, tube, dlr, etc, fine. I had two debit cards as one was new as I was mugged and had to get a new bank card.

I was challenged when I disembarked at Heron Quays, it wasn’t on a train.

 

[AlterEgo]

I haven’t received any paperwork yet. This happened on Saturday.

Okay, what is the procedure for this? Who does the letter come from and is the option to pay the fine/appeal still available?

It will come from TfL - if it is a verification letter it will ask you for your version of events as to what happened and ask if you deny or accept committing an offence. You should be aware that whatever you write here, if you choose to write anything, can be used against you in court. So it is important to ascertain exactly whether or not you have committed an offence.

Yes so I presented my bank card that I use for travel on TfL and he said it had declined. I asked how/why that could be as I always use me bank card for travel and asked if I could try my other one in case I had used that to tap on however he wouldn’t let me try it. This I found odd as it seemed he was trying to make money rather than actually catch fare dodgers. He also wouldn’t explain what the declined card meant.

Sometimes when you tap, the card doesn’t register, and the light goes red. Just like a missed or inaccurate swipe/tap in the shop. Or, it could be because the bank is declining your payment for some reason. It means you aren’t paying for your journey. Unlike a shop however, which can only deal in theft, a crime of intent, railway bylaws are strict liability, like speeding. The simple act of travelling without a valid ticket is an offence, whether you intended to or not.

No payment authorisation however I have since used my other bank card on bus, tube, dlr, etc, fine. I had two debit cards as one was new as I was mugged and had to get a new bank card.

So nothing with the bank card which caused this issue then? Have you had many maximum fares or fails to tap before? TfL can blacklist cards which are shown to have been the subject of travel irregularities or failed revenue inspections. As @MikeWh suggests, you should register your card with TfL already if you haven’t done so.

 

[Templeton96]

It will come from TfL - if it is a verification letter it will ask you for your version of events as to what happened and ask if you deny or accept committing an offence. You should be aware that whatever you write here, if you choose to write anything, can be used against you in court. So it is important to ascertain exactly whether or not you have committed an offence.

Okay, I will await that letter rather than keep chasing TFL. I thought by reaching out it looks like I’m making a concerted effort to fix the issue. I’m quite happy to pay a fine if for whatever reason my card didn’t register when tapping on, however my issue was with the officers conduct, unwillingness to explain what had happened and request for information not required (dob, banking app, etc.) Even when I said I’d like to appeal and give him my address he kept changing the subject and asking how I would like to pay!

Sometimes when you tap, the card doesn’t register, and the light goes red. Just like a missed or inaccurate swipe/tap in the shop. Or, it could be because the bank is declining your payment for some reason. It means you aren’t paying for your journey. Unlike a shop however, which can only deal in theft, a crime of intent, railway bylaws are strict liability, like speeding. The simple act of travelling without a valid ticket is an offence, whether you intended to or not.

Yes so it may have been a case of the declined card being tapped at Cutty Sark or I presented the wrong card to the ticket officer upon disembarking. However the issue is the officer wasn’t willing to try the other card. Does that strike anyone else as odd?

So nothing with the bank card which caused this issue then? Have you had many maximum fares or fails to tap before? TfL can blacklist cards which are shown to have been the subject of travel irregularities or failed revenue inspections. As @MikeWh suggests, you should register your card with TfL already if you haven’t done so.

Not sure with the bank card as the ticket officer presumably still has it. I assume the one he took was the card that got cancelled after I was mugged. I’m sure I had a TFL account when I moved to London but when I checked the other day my email didn’t come up so I registered a new one. I have yet to upload any payment details to it yet.

Does anyone have any thoughts on my situation? Watchdog seemed to agree the officers conduct wasn’t appropriate. My main concern is this going to court when it could have easily been avoided.

 

[MikeWh]

Not sure with the bank card as the ticket officer presumably still has it.

That is highly irregular. They have absolutely no right to confiscate bank cards.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not sure with the bank card as the ticket officer presumably still has it. I assume the one he took was the card that got cancelled after I was mugged. I’m sure I had a TFL account when I moved to London but when I checked the other day my email didn’t come up so I registered a new one. I have yet to upload any payment details to it yet.

Does anyone have any thoughts on my situation? Watchdog seemed to agree the officers conduct wasn’t appropriate. My main concern is this going to court when it could have easily been avoided.

The watchdog isn’t here or there I’m afraid. You’re now in legal trouble. They can’t really get involved with this process.

Why did you leave when the officer still had your bank card, before the interaction has ended properly? Have you cancelled this card?

The RPI has acted on the sharper end of the scale by asking to see proof of your address on your banking app, but I rather suspect what they really wanted to see is whether you had any available funds, as your card had apparently declined.

Whether the RPI was a nice person or not is unfortunately not going to be relevant as I don’t see that anything they did was unlawful or fatal to any prosecution attempt.

That is highly irregular. They have absolutely no right to confiscate bank cards.

It’s unclear whether it was confiscated or whether the OP gave it to them on request and simply left before the inspector could give it back.

I’m also confused as to why the OP says this card is one that got cancelled after they were mugged… why would you cancel a card you still have? There’s a bit more to this than meets the eye.

 

[Templeton96]

That is highly irregular. They have absolutely no right to confiscate bank cards.

Hi Mike,

Yes this was my thinking. As I was scanning it he took it off me to tell me it was declined. I asked at several intervals in the conversation if I could look at it to check it was the right one however he refused and kept hold of it. I presume this is a tactic to keep people there which I empathise with, but I was being very cooperative and simply was trying to understand what the issue was. In the end when I decided the conversation wasn’t going anywhere and he wasn’t listening to me, I advised I was in a rush and he kept the card. Presumably to give to police or mount in his office!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

The watchdog isn’t here or there I’m afraid. You’re now in legal trouble. They can’t really get involved with this process.

Why did you leave when the officer still had your bank card, before the interaction has ended properly? Have you cancelled this card?

The RPI has acted on the sharper end of the scale by asking to see proof of your address on your banking app, but I rather suspect what they really wanted to see is whether you had any available funds, as your card had apparently declined.

Whether the RPI was a nice person or not is unfortunately not going to be relevant as I don’t see that anything they did was unlawful or fatal to any prosecution attempt.



It’s unclear whether it was confiscated or whether the OP gave it to them on request and simply left before the inspector could give it back.

I’m also confused as to why the OP says this card is one that got cancelled after they were mugged… why would you cancel a card you still have? There’s a bit more to this than meets the eye.

That’s fair enough, I was just trying to explore all avenues and do everything I could.

Because the officer was not being cooperative and I explained several times I was in a rush. Based on him telling me it was declined I’ve assumed it was not the new one I was using to tap on.

Ah yes, you might be right. I mean I would have quite happily provided that information however as this was the first time this has happened, I wasn’t aware of procedures or what information I’m legally obligated to provide them with.

I don’t think it was so much that he wasn’t nice, I think it was more his conduct. I don’t understand why they would insist on you paying when they’ve not even tried your other bank card. Seems like they’re trying to fine people rather than actually catch fare dodgers.

Well I asked if I could look at it several times during the interaction and he wouldn’t even show me the card let alone give it back. So whether or not that is confiscated, I do not know.

Last year I was involved in a mugging at knifepoint. There were many problems caused off the back of it including attempted fraud. When trying to recover a lot of information I needed previous bank cards. So after cancelling this bank card for example, I kept hold of it. A lot more than meets the eye, however can assure you I’m not trying to hide anything. Happy to answer any questions.

 

[MikeWh]

OK. I'm sorry to hear about the mugging - that must have been a terrifying experience.

Have you registered the cards that you have on the TfL account. I've just added my new debit card and it took 2 minutes. If you can add each card that you might have used on that day and check the journey history, and copy anything you find. Unfortunately you need the CVV number to add a card so it's unlikely that you can add the one he has, but if it was cancelled then there shouldn't be any recent history anyway.

If you can find a card with a touch in at Cutty Sark that day then you'll have a very strong case. I presume when you walked away you didn't touch any of the validators with any card you had? Also, had you walked past the validators at Heron Quays before he stopped you?

 

[Templeton96]

OK. I'm sorry to hear about the mugging - that must have been a terrifying experience.

Have you registered the cards that you have on the TfL account. I've just added my new debit card and it took 2 minutes. If you can add each card that you might have used on that day and check the journey history, and copy anything you find. Unfortunately you need the CVV number to add a card so it's unlikely that you can add the one he has, but if it was cancelled then there shouldn't be any recent history anyway.

If you can find a card with a touch in at Cutty Sark that day then you'll have a very strong case. I presume when you walked away you didn't touch any of the validators with any card you had? Also, had you walked past the validators at Heron Quays before he stopped you?

Nothing to apologise for, just one of those things eh? London nowadays! But yes, very scary experience, I can’t stress enough. Glad to have come out the other end. I also have a crime ref number for that which I can provide whomever may need it if it’s relevant for this down the line.

Thanks, I’ve gone onto my account and registered my main bank debit card. Yes I have no idea the details of that card so can’t register it. Nothing coming up for this card save for a couple of bus fares yesterday (I don’t travel much). I suspect I’ve tapped in with the wrong card, the one presented. Not sure if they can look at cctv to see me tapping in (obviously doesn’t excuse the oversight, however trying to make the case I’m not a far dodger).

No I didn’t walk past anyone, I got to the bottom of the escalators and they were there so walked up to the nearest one.

 

[MikeWh]

I suspect I’ve tapped in with the wrong card, the one presented. Not sure if they can look at cctv to see me tapping in (obviously doesn’t excuse the oversight, however trying to make the case I’m not a far dodger).

Thanks for this. Unfortunately when touching in at validators it is your responsibility to check that you get a green light and one beep rather than a red one and two beeps, or nothing at all. I know Cutty Sark and if it was noisy on the stairs down where the validators are then you may well have missed what it said.

I think right now you'll have to wait for the verification letter. This will allow you to explain what happened. Come back when you receive it. TfL are normally quite strict with fare evading, but sometimes they do let people off with a warning. There are plenty of people here who will be able to help with your reply.

Moving forward, always use the same card all the time to benefit from any capping available. Take extra care at validators to make sure the card has been accepted. Finally I'd suggest not carrying around any dead cards - keep them safe at home if you need them.

 

[furlong]

Very disappointing to read this - I hope it's not the whole truth as it gives TfL a bad name. What reason did he give for refusing to return the card to you? He should have explained to you, him not being a police officer, what lawful basis he had invoked for refusing to return it to you after examining it, as without one he might face an accusation of theft or worse. I think an honest inspector would have returned the card immediately when asked knowing he had no power to detain you - anything else might be deemed to be a momentary intention to deprive you of it permanently i.e. theft, not least because as a direct result you actually did have to leave, as you were entitled to, without it, and that outcome could be entirely foreseen (and likely intentional). That is a matter that should form part of a formal complaint to TfL (and potentially the police). (If matters are as described the officer might reflect on the situation and try to call it quits by quickly delivering the card back to you and closing the case without taking any action in the hope that your relief will avoid any complaint.)

The law doesn't make their job easy, but they must still stay comfortably within its boundaries and never misrepresent it in the course of an investigation e.g. by implying they have an entitlement to see your banking app which they most obviously do not. If they ask for some reason they must make clear you have no obligation to agree and are offering any information entirely voluntarily.

 

[reb0118]

That is highly irregular. They have absolutely no right to confiscate bank cards.

Historically when I worked in retail (albeit almost thirty years ago) we were to retain "hot" cards if they flagged as such on our systems.

This also occurred after my joining the railway. There was a helpline number (Barclays Bank provided the back office systems) and allegedly a £50 reward for the retention of high risk cards.

I believe that the legalities of this were as follows. The card does not belong to the passenger/customer but rather it belongs to the issuing bank. It can withdrawn at their pleasure. The retailer is merely acting as an agent on behalf of the bank in these circumstances.

Since the advent of chip 'n' pin, & especially contactless, we generally no longer take the physical card into our possession to process the transaction so the chances of actually being able to retain cards has diminished somewhat. Company policy may also have changed in the intervening years.

 

[island]

That is highly irregular. They have absolutely no right to confiscate bank cards.

That’s not quite correct. The card is the property of the issuing bank and the bank can delegate to merchants the right to recover a card where that card has been cancelled due to theft/misuse.

It’s unlikely that was what was happening here, granted; the RCI will simply have been keeping hold of the card until the process was complete, as to give it back might have resulted in the passenger doing a runner.

 

[Skymonster]

Archaic it might seem now, but at one time there were floor limits on cards and spending beyond those required a telephone call for authorisation (an authorisation code was issued and written on the payment voucher). Authorisation could be withheld by the issuer, who could also request the retailer retain the card. Lists of “wanted” cards were also circulated. These days, there is a possibility that a card could be blocked by an individual retailer (in this case TfL) but usable for contactless transactions elsewhere as far as the issuer is concerned. In which case unauthorised retention of the card could result in [accusations of] mis-use or worse directed towards the person or organisation that retained it. Retaining a card without instructions to do so from the issuer (in which case the card will be completely stopped) is highly improperly.

 

[Deafdoggie]

That’s not quite correct. The card is the property of the issuing bank and the bank can delegate to merchants the right to recover a card where that card has been cancelled due to theft/misuse.

It’s unlikely that was what was happening here, granted; the RCI will simply have been keeping hold of the card until the process was complete, as to give it back might have resulted in the passenger doing a runner.

I'd say it sounds like exactly what happened here. If it's been reported as lost as a result of a knife-point mugging and resultant fraud, it's very likely on the hot list.

 

[Skymonster]

I'd say it sounds like exactly what happened here. If it's been reported as lost as a result of a knife-point mugging and resultant fraud, it's very likely on the hot list.

That is certainly possible and might explain the TfL staff member’s behavior and approach to the matter.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd say it sounds like exactly what happened here. If it's been reported as lost as a result of a knife-point mugging and resultant fraud, it's very likely on the hot list.

How would the inspector know this? I don’t think they have any facility to know this.

 

[Deafdoggie]

How would the inspector know this? I don’t think they have any facility to know this.

Presumably they have someway to authorise cards, otherwise why do inspections? It'll either say Authorised, Declined or Retain Card.

 

[AlterEgo]

When trying to recover a lot of information I needed previous bank cards. So after cancelling this bank card for example, I kept hold of it.

I can’t think of any scenario where I have needed a cancelled, inactive bank card to recover anything. I’m very confused.

A lot more than meets the eye, however can assure you I’m not trying to hide anything. Happy to answer any questions.

If there’s more to this than meets the eye it’s best you just tell us what hasn’t been told rather than wait for us to ask the correct question to unlock the answer.

So far it’s not looking great. There are numerous irregularities here any of which on their own are probably ones you can write off, but lined up together and happening one after the other would raise suspicion of you:

- has retained a card which they reported as stolen, and is subsequently blocked for use
- taps in (did you? You don’t have a record of any other authorisation of any other card?) at Cutty Sark with a blocked card
- didn’t notice the negative beep or the red light there
- taps out, again, at Heron Quays, also using the wrong card in error
- didn’t notice the negative beep or red light again
- happy to leave the card which was reported stolen (but which you have retained for a year, apparently for important reasons) with the inspector, after you got tired of arguing with them.

TfL know that there is a revenue fraud people can commit using blocked/stopped cards to exit the system, and I suspect they now will begin to suspect you of this, especially if they suspect you of making journeys to barriered stations as well.

Here is someone who was caught last year: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/got-caught-touching-in-on-exit-gates-for-over-a-year.258324/

 

[island]

It should also be pointed out that other than on buses, inspectors do not have a way to know whether a contactless payment card has been touched-in.

 

[Templeton96]

Thanks for this. Unfortunately when touching in at validators it is your responsibility to check that you get a green light and one beep rather than a red one and two beeps, or nothing at all. I know Cutty Sark and if it was noisy on the stairs down where the validators are then you may well have missed what it said.

I think right now you'll have to wait for the verification letter. This will allow you to explain what happened. Come back when you receive it. TfL are normally quite strict with fare evading, but sometimes they do let people off with a warning. There are plenty of people here who will be able to help with your reply.

Moving forward, always use the same card all the time to benefit from any capping available. Take extra care at validators to make sure the card has been accepted. Finally I'd suggest not carrying around any dead cards - keep them safe at home if you need them.

Thanks for this. Unfortunately when touching in at validators it is your responsibility to check that you get a green light and one beep rather than a red one and two beeps, or nothing at all. I know Cutty Sark and if it was noisy on the stairs down where the validators are then you may well have missed what it said.

I think right now you'll have to wait for the verification letter. This will allow you to explain what happened. Come back when you receive it. TfL are normally quite strict with fare evading, but sometimes they do let people off with a warning. There are plenty of people here who will be able to help with your reply.

Moving forward, always use the same card all the time to benefit from any capping available. Take extra care at validators to make sure the card has been accepted. Finally I'd suggest not carrying around any dead cards - keep them safe at home if you need them.

Hi Mike,

100% percent and that is why if it was my error and I tapped on with the wrong card, I was happy to pay the fine. I was pologetic and the ticket officer even at the beginning suggested I may have used this declined card by accident and not heard the beep as I had my headphones in. My issue here was him not allowing me to check the other card in case that wasn't the case. I'm not trying to dodge £1.80 and was simply trying to resolve the situation but he was focused on fining me.

Okay will sit tight and await to hear. Does anyone know how long TFL verification letters usually take? Yes, any help would be much appreciated.

I will do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

Very disappointing to read this - I hope it's not the whole truth as it gives TfL a bad name. What reason did he give for refusing to return the card to you? He should have explained to you, him not being a police officer, what lawful basis he had invoked for refusing to return it to you after examining it, as without one he might face an accusation of theft or worse. I think an honest inspector would have returned the card immediately when asked knowing he had no power to detain you - anything else might be deemed to be a momentary intention to deprive you of it permanently i.e. theft, not least because as a direct result you actually did have to leave, as you were entitled to, without it, and that outcome could be entirely foreseen (and likely intentional). That is a matter that should form part of a formal complaint to TfL (and potentially the police). (If matters are as described the officer might reflect on the situation and try to call it quits by quickly delivering the card back to you and closing the case without taking any action in the hope that your relief will avoid any complaint.)

The law doesn't make their job easy, but they must still stay comfortably within its boundaries and never misrepresent it in the course of an investigation e.g. by implying they have an entitlement to see your banking app which they most obviously do not. If they ask for some reason they must make clear you have no obligation to agree and are offering any information entirely voluntarily.

I can assure you, it is the whole truth. That was partly why I came on this forum as I was unsure as to whether this was appropriate procedure. Obviously this was filmed so I'm wondering if anything will even come of this as the footage shows this. He didn't give a reason, for example the first time I asked if I could check I'd presented the right one, he just responded 'can you show me your ID'. I thought about making a complaint but in all honestly I really just want to get the situation resolved and not make an even bigger thing out of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

Historically when I worked in retail (albeit almost thirty years ago) we were to retain "hot" cards if they flagged as such on our systems.

This also occurred after my joining the railway. There was a helpline number (Barclays Bank provided the back office systems) and allegedly a £50 reward for the retention of high risk cards.

I believe that the legalities of this were as follows. The card does not belong to the passenger/customer but rather it belongs to the issuing bank. It can withdrawn at their pleasure. The retailer is merely acting as an agent on behalf of the bank in these circumstances.

Since the advent of chip 'n' pin, & especially contactless, we generally no longer take the physical card into our possession to process the transaction so the chances of actually being able to retain cards has diminished somewhat. Company policy may also have changed in the intervening years.

Thanks for advising! So the card itself wasn't hot, I merely was keeping hold of it due to what transpired. It was under the advice of the banks that I just cancel everything to be safe. My reason for keeping the card was actually at the advice of the bank in relation to accessing things like Apple ID (stores old bank card info and as I didn't have a previous old bank card I was locked out of it for 3 weeks - long story). However the card should not have been showing as 'hot' simply as declined.

 

[Haywain]

My issue here was him not allowing me to check the other card in case that wasn't the case.

This is something of a red herring if you had not used another card.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi Mike,

100% percent and that is why if it was my error and I tapped on with the wrong card, I was happy to pay the fine. I was pologetic and the ticket officer even at the beginning suggested I may have used this declined card by accident and not heard the beep as I had my headphones in. My issue here was him not allowing me to check the other card in case that wasn't the case.

You can check if this is the case yourself, by registering any live card, as @MikeWh says - it will show any journeys registered, including if you tapped at Cutty Sark and encountered a maximum fare by not tapping out with the same card. This will be very important for you as you now need to try to mount a defence against a criminal offence. It does however appear that you did not tap in at the start of your journey either, with the card you apparently tried to pay with.

The circumstances of the case mean I am not surprised he decided to report you for prosecution; I suspect once he found the card had been reported stolen or lost this sealed your fate.

I'm not trying to dodge £1.80 and was simply trying to resolve the situation but he was focused on fining me.

This would have been the better option for you, as a penalty fare can be paid immediately - or appealed - and nothing more can come of it.

Okay will sit tight and await to hear. Does anyone know how long TFL verification letters usually take? Yes, any help would be much appreciated.

In theory they have up to six months to prosecute an offence but they often send a verification letter within a week or two.

 

[Haywain]

I can assure you, it is the whole truth.

Did he refuse to return the card or did you walk away?

 

[Templeton96]

That’s not quite correct. The card is the property of the issuing bank and the bank can delegate to merchants the right to recover a card where that card has been cancelled due to theft/misuse.

It’s unlikely that was what was happening here, granted; the RCI will simply have been keeping hold of the card until the process was complete, as to give it back might have resulted in the passenger doing a runner.

Thanks for all the replies guys, really appreciate them.

Ah okay I see. So the thing here is I could see how a declined card could be viewed by a retailer initially as stolen, however he then saw my drivers licence which information matched the bank card he was holding.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for all the replies guys, really appreciate them.

Ah okay I see. So the thing here is I could see how a declined card could be viewed by a retailer initially as stolen, however he then saw my drivers licence which information matched the bank card he was holding.

The problem is this: you reported a card as lost or stolen, it's now blocked, you use it to exit the DLR or Tube system - this is a revenue scam I linked to earlier. People do this, it is a method of fraud which has been advertised on TikTok by people, and TfL can see that too. They know about this scam, and I think anyone who is seen to be carrying their own card (which is reported lost or stolen, and hence blocked), and exiting the system with it, will fall under suspicion.

What you're doing here is the equivalent of carrying round a tinfoil lined bag in Primark and filling it with clothes, and walking out, apparently forgetting to pay, and then offering to pay when caught. Now you *might* argue you have a very special reason for carrying around a tinfoil lined bag *and* putting your shopping into it by accident, but it had better be a good one!

There's no good reason to retain your own lost or stolen card - sorry, your explanation just doesn't pass the smell test with me and I suspect being found with this card is why the RPI is reporting you for prosecution. And it is why they have retained it, potentially as evidence.

Whole heap of things not adding up with this incident and you say there is more to this than meets the eye - it is up to you whether you tell the forum about what the "more than this" is, but if you don't, you will get advice which does not reflect the circumstances of your case and will be of limited use to you.

 

[Haywain]

There's no good reason to retain your own lost or stolen card

And even less good reason to be carrying it around in a way that is so easy to access.

 

[Templeton96]

I can’t think of any scenario where I have needed a cancelled, inactive bank card to recover anything. I’m very confused.


If there’s more to this than meets the eye it’s best you just tell us what hasn’t been told rather than wait for us to ask the correct question to unlock the answer.

So far it’s not looking great. There are numerous irregularities here any of which on their own are probably ones you can write off, but lined up together and happening one after the other would raise suspicion of you:

- has retained a card which they reported as stolen, and is subsequently blocked for use
- taps in (did you? You don’t have a record of any other authorisation of any other card?) at Cutty Sark with a blocked card
- didn’t notice the negative beep or the red light there
- taps out, again, at Heron Quays, also using the wrong card in error
- didn’t notice the negative beep or red light again
- happy to leave the card which was reported stolen (but which you have retained for a year, apparently for important reasons) with the inspector, after you got tired of arguing with them.

TfL know that there is a revenue fraud people can commit using blocked/stopped cards to exit the system, and I suspect they now will begin to suspect you of this, especially if they suspect you of making journeys to barriered stations as well.

Here is someone who was caught last year: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/got-caught-touching-in-on-exit-gates-for-over-a-year.258324/

Hi AlterEgo,

Thanks for the reply. When I say more than meets the eye I meant I had to explain the part about why I was carrying the card re the mugging etc. There is nothing further.

- I haven't retained a card I reported as stolen. My phone was stolen amongst other things and as a result they attempted fraud at the time. As a result, my banks recommend I cancel everyhting, even things they hadn't attempted fraud on. Sorry for the confusion.
- I presume there will be a record of it on cctv, however I now believe it was using that card in error. My point was at the time he wouldn't let me check if that was the case.
- That's correct I can't deny that, the area was crowded with tourists as there are always problems at Cutty Sark DLR and I squeezed past tapped and moved on.
- I didn't tap out at Heron Quays as my interaction with the ticket officer came at the bottom of the escalator before I got to the tap out box.
- N/A
- I wasn't happy to leave the card, I simply weighed up my options and was in a rush. I only had the card for my records as a precaution but wasn't willing to stay and argue with the officer who wasn't going to give it up or

Thanks for sharing this article. I'm not aware of this as this card is dead so simply doesn't work. I think it'slightly different. If I have ever accidentally used it before it just hasn't registered, it's not allowed me access or exit.