Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[SWT_USER]

Yes very smart idea. There are 30 707s and 90 701s. The 707s won’t be close to enough to replace all the 455s.

Once again I’d like to mention that the 455s are 10 years older than the networkers. They need to be replaced more than their southeastern equivalents. You could argue that the 455s have had many refurbishments, a retraction, etc, but at the core these trains are over 40 years old while the networkers are 30 years old. The interiors are tired, parts are running low, corrosion is at an all time high. In fact to drive my point home further, they’re having to source things like carriage doors from old PEPs now! It’s ridiculous to even suggest moving the 701s to SE because of that. And most importantly they don’t meet modern passenger standards, a lot more so than the 465. I’m typing this on board a packed evening service with nowhere to sit and little room to stand, while the train continues to boil due to it’s lack of any AC.

I am not denying the networkers are in a bad state. They really are. But we cannot just keep trains 10 years older running, and continuing to make South Western commuter suffer

Someone should let SWR know! Five years after their promised introduction and still in no rush to introduce the new trains.

 

[norbitonflyer]

They’re having to source things like carriage doors from old PEPs now! And most importantly they don’t meet modern passenger standards, a lot more so than the 465.

For a start, 465s have toilets.
Surely PEP (313,507 etc) doors wouldn't fit unless a 455/7 (ex 508) trailer needs one?

 

[NSEWonderer]

That toxic railway cycle of failing to make improvements as quickly as needed because demand is falling, and so as improvements continue to become fewer, the state of the line deteriorates, and commuters continue to go elsewhere, leading those in charge of the railway to further justify a lack of consistent improvements, and thus the cycle repeats.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

For a start, 465s have toilets.

Exactly, good example

Surely PEP (313,507 etc) doors wouldn't fit unless a 455/7 (ex 508) trailer needs one?

Not sure exactly where they're being used but I've definitely heard of them being sourced for 455s.
For more evidence regarding part problems:

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

I thought that it might be the end doors.

File:315830 D Interior.JPG - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

File:Interior of 71793 of 319422 (16209863410).jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I thought that it might be the end doors.

Yes, that's what I meant by "carriage doors", sorry if that didn't come across correctly.

 

[StewartStag]

Thank you 3973EXL, but apparently another 5Q12 ran today with 57306 per RTT - possibly another 701/5 ?

It was 57306, 720505, 69009

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes very smart idea. There are 30 707s and 90 701s. The 707s won’t be close to enough to replace all the 455s.

Once again I’d like to mention that the 455s are 10 years older than the networkers. They need to be replaced more than their southeastern equivalents. You could argue that the 455s have had many refurbishments, a retraction, etc, but at the core these trains are over 40 years old while the networkers are 30 years old. The interiors are tired, parts are running low, corrosion is at an all time high. In fact to drive my point home further, they’re having to source things like carriage doors from old PEPs now! It’s ridiculous to even suggest moving the 701s to SE because of that. And most importantly they don’t meet modern passenger standards, a lot more so than the 465. I’m typing this on board a packed evening service with nowhere to sit and little room to stand, while the train continues to boil due to it’s lack of any AC.

I am not denying the networkers are in a bad state. They really are. But we cannot just keep trains 10 years older running, and continuing to make South Western commuter suffer

The SWR 455's interior are in far better condition than the non refurbed 465's

 

[boiledbeans2]

Exactly, good example

Not sure exactly where they're being used but I've definitely heard of them being sourced for 455s.
For more evidence regarding part problems:

Interesting photo. I wonder where they obtained the other door? After a bit of time on Google Image, my guess is that the door leaf with the larger window comes from a Class 317/2? The Class 317/2 has door windows which match the body windows in height. However, Class 455 door windows are smaller than the body windows in height.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Interesting photo. I wonder where they obtained the other door? After a bit of time on Google Image, my guess is that the door leaf with the larger window comes from a Class 317/2? The Class 317/2 has door windows which match the body windows in height. However, Class 455 door windows are smaller than the body windows in height.

At a guess, I would've thought that the "replacement door" was taken from one of the Class 456s before they were scrapped. Of course, I may very well be wrong.

On a related note, there's at least one 455 running around with all doors, including cab doors, akin to the one on the right of the image (i.e. with full-height door windows). I've worked it a few times and often wondered about it. Anybody know why this is?

 

[Flange Squeal]

On a related note, there's at least one 455 running around with all doors, including cab doors, akin to the one on the right of the image (i.e. with full-height door windows). I've worked it a few times and often wondered about it. Anybody know why this is?

I expect it’s 5920 you’re thinking of. I once heard a rumour that it was in build alongside the 317s and there was a sharing of parts to finish it off, but I have absolutely nothing to back that potential myth up with.

 

[Russel]

Still only one in service part daily, with five units in total having been used.

That's disgraceful.

 

[nctd2306]

Exactly, good example

Not sure exactly where they're being used but I've definitely heard of them being sourced for 455s.
For more evidence regarding part problems:

There is a 458 in a similar situation, I believe 458536, being an ex-460 with door windows smaller than the original 458s, has one set of doors which has the larger windows, although this has been the case for a couple of years at least so isn't related to a current shortage of parts

 

[Goldfish62]

I am not denying the networkers are in a bad state. They really are. But we cannot just keep trains 10 years older running, and continuing to make South Western commuter suffer

I do agree absolutely with what you say, but if SWR and the local union branches collectively don't seem to care about this then let other passengers experience the benefits of the new trains instead.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I do agree absolutely with what you say, but if SWR and the local union branches collectively don't seem to care about this then let other passengers experience the benefits of the new trains instead.

Yes, but the unions are happy now. The RMT has agreed and signed on the principles of operation, while ASLEF have agreed and just have to sign off. The problem now is not unions, nor is it the state of the software (although there's still a long way to go until it's fully optimised), but rather driver training. Once a course has been agreed upon, which it isn't far away from doing so (a trial was run earlier this month to iron out issues), we should be all in the clear for a proper rollout to start.

My personal estimate, and remember I don't have any inside information about this beyond what I've already said (in other words do not take this as fact), is we'll start seeing real progress in diagrams being taken over by November

 

[Lockwood]

"Once a course has been agreed upon"

I think that is the question we keep circling back to... These were set to go live years ago. The training course isn't ready now. How w did we get to this point?

I'm in a similar position in one of my activities - started a course mid 2023, and the tail end of it is still being written. And the course is to provide training to meet a role defined in a policy that went into effect in 2021ish

 

[OneTrackMinded]

These were set to go live years ago. The training course isn't ready now. How w did we get to this point?

It's hard to make a course when the unions keep throwing things up that they don't like, or when the trains don't work. Much easier to finalise when all parties are happy and have made agreements

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2024 ==

On a different topic, I spotted a packed Royal Ascot service yesterday, a 3+2 8 car 450, with people finding it hard to find places to stand. I wondered how different it would be if that was a 701..

 

[Goldfish62]

On a different topic, I spotted a packed Royal Ascot service yesterday, a 3+2 8 car 450, with people finding it hard to find places to stand. I wondered how different it would be if that was a 701..

Indeed, a lot of 450s have been robbed from other services for Royal Ascot enhancements.

A friend is currently on his way to Portsmouth for the IOW Festival, squeezed into a single 450.

 

[Lockwood]

That makes sense, but I would have thought there'd have been A course ready for a 2019 introduction. It might need a tweak and adjustment to a few modules to cover changes in equipment and practice, but there'd be a good skeleton there?

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I expect it’s 5920 you’re thinking of. I once heard a rumour that it was in build alongside the 317s and there was a sharing of parts to finish it off, but I have absolutely nothing to back that potential myth up with.

Thanks. That's interesting, if true.

 

[Mikey C]

Indeed, a lot of 450s have been robbed from other services for Royal Ascot enhancements.

A friend is currently on his way to Portsmouth for the IOW Festival, squeezed into a single 450.

Good training for the mosh pit when he arrives

 

[Goldfish62]

Good training for the mosh pit when he arrives

Being a festival goer of many decades he doesn't need any training.

 

[GW43125]

Indeed, a lot of 450s have been robbed from other services for Royal Ascot enhancements.

A friend is currently on his way to Portsmouth for the IOW Festival, squeezed into a single 450.

It's their turn this week! Had that fun with a single 455 on one of the high peak Readings last week...

 

[LUYMun]

With nationalisation on the horizon apparently units are going to be cascaded everywhere across the sectors (as it's all owned by the same body and is going to be branded all the same [liveries etc]) so after that point the 701s might be moved to where other TOCs use to operate, which is a shame considering the whole point was having one unified fleet for suburban use.

Nationalisation wouldn't be a straightforward affair, given that most political parties advocating for this would let the current contracts expire before a public body (ie GBR) takes them over. As a result, it could be a matter of years before rolling stock cascades is even thought of, let alone attempted.

 

[3141]

With nationalisation on the horizon apparently units are going to be cascaded everywhere across the sectors (as it's all owned by the same body and is going to be branded all the same [liveries etc]) so after that point the 701s might be moved to where other TOCs use to operate, which is a shame considering the whole point was having one unified fleet for suburban use.

This - if it were true - implies that somebody has already worked out the shape of the future nationalised organisation and developed new plans for existing rolling stock. Seems unlikely to me. Whilst a rolling stock strategy would be an excellent idea, spreading trains intended for SWR around other depots, and having to train maintenance staff and lay in new stocks of spares, would not.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Someone should let SWR know! Five years after their promised introduction and still in no rush to introduce the new trains.

Exactly. I wonder how quickly South Eastern might have got them into service even if it was only a proportion of the fleet.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I expect it’s 5920 you’re thinking of. I once heard a rumour that it was in build alongside the 317s and there was a sharing of parts to finish it off, but I have absolutely nothing to back that potential myth up with.

Thanks. Did a search on google and came upon this: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/south-west-trains-455920.97668/

 

[norbitonflyer]

Nationalisation wouldn't be a straightforward affair, given that most political parties advocating for this would let the current contracts expire before a public body (ie GBR) takes them over. As a result, it could be a matter of years before rolling stock cascades is even thought of, let alone attempted.

Not that I think such a cascade is likely, but all of the remaining franchises either expire or have a break clause within the next three years, and most (certainly any which might use a suburban EMU) within just over one year. (Data from Wikipedia, corrections welcome)

15 Sept 2024 Gtr Anglia, WMR
1 April 2025 Chiltern, TSGN
28 May 2025 SWR
22 June 2025 GWR
20 July 2025 C2C
18 Oct 2026 EMR, Avanti WC
17 Oct 2027 Cross Ciountry

The rest are already under government control.

 

[SEtrains]

Surprisingly 701037/043 have not been in service this week with 036 in service the whole of this week instead

 

[reddragon]

Plenty of units at Long Marston - pics for those interested. All exc those at the back.