Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[paul1609]

That is the same negative? A 25 minute connection at Barnham or Chichester isn't a great prospect for anyone travelling from East Surrey or North West Sussex beyond Cosham. However, those are the difficult things which the timetable people have to balance and you can understand why Brighton to Portsmouth connections were favoured over the Southampton ones.

(In practice, most people will, I expect, reduce the wait time by catching the stopping portion on the Arun Valley.)

In the Up direction its often much quicker to take the Southampton to Brighton Service and change at Brighton because of the high frequency on the Brighton Mainline.
If you want Redhill its quicker to travel via Guildford and the North Downs Line. From Cosham and beyond it will now be more convient to change to the 2TPH Victoria service from Fratton.

 

[JonathanH]

If you want Redhill its quicker to travel via Guildford and the North Downs Line.

Not much use if you want to use a 'via Barnham' ticket.

From Cosham and beyond it will now be more convient to change to the 2TPH Victoria service from Fratton.

It actually isn't, because the trains don't connect conveniently.

In the Up direction its often much quicker to take the Southampton to Brighton Service and change at Brighton because of the high frequency on the Brighton Mainline.

Do you want to check that statement? Looks tight at Brighton, especially given the reported additional ticket checks, and isn't quicker than the wait at Barnham.

All in all, whichever way you look at it Southampton to stations beyond Horsham are the big lovers in this, although there are positives for other travellers.

 

[paul1609]

Not much use if you want to use a 'via Barnham' ticket.


It actually isn't, because the trains don't connect conveniently.


Do you want to check that statement? Looks tight at Brighton, especially given the reported additional ticket checks, and isn't quicker than the wait at Barnham.

All in all, whichever way you look at it Southampton to stations beyond Horsham are the big lovers in this, although there are positives for other travellers.

For Redhill dont buy a via Barnham Ticket, buy a Tonbridge Route Edenbridge/Polegate Ticket also priced by Southern. Valid via Guildford as the shortest route to Edenbridge from Havant.

Re Fratton, it depends if you are starting from one of the stations not served by the Southern Brighton to Southampton service if so your quickest route will be the SWR stopper to Fratton ditto Hedge End Eastleigh.

Re Brighton, it doesnt show as an official connection because its a Southern to Gatwick Express connection but if the Southampton train is on time its easily achievable typically platform 2 to 4. I walk past it on my way to the Eastbourne train on platform7. If it all goes terribly wrong theres a Thameslink train a few minutes later so you have a safety net.

I did a East to West Coastway transfer last saturday and returned last Monday. There were no checks and the barriers had been stowed away. I believe they are normally there for the queueing for big events in brighton Pride etc and Brighton home matches.

 

[JonathanH]

For Redhill dont buy a via Barnham Ticket, buy a Tonbridge Route Edenbridge/Polegate Ticket also priced by Southern. Valid via Guildford as the shortest route to Edenbridge from Havant.

Yes, works for Southampton, and valid via Guildford trivially as shortest route as you say, but only works as far as Southampton. Any further west and the tickets are routed via Barnham.

Re Brighton, it doesnt show as an official connection because its a Southern to Gatwick Express connection but if the Southampton train is on time its easily achievable typically platform 2 to 4. I walk past it on my way to the Eastbourne train on platform7. If it all goes terribly wrong theres a Thameslink train a few minutes later so you have a safety net.

Yes, but it saves one minute in terms of the Gatwick arrival time relative to changing at Barnham, and is therefore still half an hour slower than before the timetable change.

 

[nw1]

In the Up direction its often much quicker to take the Southampton to Brighton Service and change at Brighton because of the high frequency on the Brighton Mainline.

Is that a permitted route from Southampton to Gatwick via Barnham, incidentally?

Perhaps the most appealing option as it means less waiting around even if the overall journey time is slightly more, plus Brighton Station has facilities (and for a rail enthusiast, there is quite a lot going on; not sure if the frequent ECS to and from Lovers Walk of the slam door era still occur these days though).

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks, I just remember in some paper (probably somewhere in this forum) it was mentioned that southern was planning to allocate class 387s to Brighton to Southampton services. Must have been a longer term aspiration or something along those lines i reckon.

As mentioned in earlier posts the route map you’re thinking of, (I linked it in post #324 of this thread), is almost certainly showing the intended final status once the GN 379 changeover is complete.

 

[nw1]

All in all, whichever way you look at it Southampton to stations beyond Horsham are the big losers in this, although there are positives for other travellers.

While there are alternatives, I do think the fact that through trains to Gatwick have existed since 1990 means it is a bigger deal than it would otherwise have been.

Clapham is the best route time-wise now, I'm sure, though sadly more expensive.

A better feature of the new timetable is the more even departure times from Southampton to Fareham, close to 15-min clockface if I remember right.

 

[Deepgreen]

Is the Brighton - Chichester service going to replace the Hove shuttle or run alongside it?

Only if the route is quadrupled...sorry, couldn't resist!

 

[Sun Chariot]

Only if the route is quadrupled...sorry, couldn't resist!

There's a perfectly good A27 that people could be bussed along instead.

 

[paul1609]

Yes, works for Southampton, and valid via Guildford trivially as shortest route as you say, but only works as far as Southampton. Any further west and the tickets are routed via Barnham.

Any further west Id recommend splitting at Winchester to a Winchester to Tonbridge Route Edenbridge/ Polegate ticket also priced by Southern which has a shortest route of Woking, Guildford and Redhill. Some journey planners also seem to think its valid via Clapham Junction and Redhill. It might be they see it as being within 3 miles of the shortest route, Im not sure.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I believe they are normally there for the queueing for big events in brighton Pride etc and Brighton home matches.

No they are pretty much all day every day, forcing people out the station and back in preventing legal connections. You must've come on a blue moon.

 

[paul1609]

No they are pretty much all day every day, forcing people out the station and back in preventing legal connections. You must've come on a blue moon.

Generally I go through Brighton once every 10 days and return on average 3 days later. In the last year I think I've seen them twice. Perhaps they are concentrating on times you use the station. My journeys are nearly all pm.

 

[AlbertBeale]

No they are pretty much all day every day, forcing people out the station and back in preventing legal connections. You must've come on a blue moon.

I've never once seen these checks on people changing platforms when I've been coming and going at Brighton station (to/from West Coastway, BML, and East Coastway, variously) at weekends (and very occasionally on weekdays) quite often in recent months. These occasions have included am, pm and evening, both when the station's been heaving and when it's been almost empty... So maybe those who keep encountering these checks have just been very unlucky.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I've never once seen these checks on people changing platforms when I've been coming and going at Brighton station (to/from West Coastway, BML, and East Coastway, variously) at weekends (and very occasionally on weekdays) quite often in recent months. These occasions have included am, pm and evening, both when the station's been heaving and when it's been almost empty... So maybe those who keep encountering these checks have just been very unlucky.

They began 1 month ago so that isn't surprising. Perhaps you'd like a list of people complaining?

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https://x.com/Will_Norris

@SouthernRailUK
understand need for ticket inspection but it’s nuts to force everyone changing trains at Brighton to exit the barrier and re-enter, it makes normal connections impossible.

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https://x.com/GSB79798997

@SouthernRailUK
who has the bright idea to make passengers exit the platforms then come back onto the. Dont you realise due to your inept time tabling some journeys have very short periods of time to change trains.

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@SouthernRailUK
see the clowns want to inspect the passengers again making people go out and in again with the amount of their trains that don’t run on time I guess they won’t people to miss their connecting trains couldn’t make it up how did they are at Brighton.

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@SouthernRailUK
Today daughter has missed her connection because 12 revenue officers at Brighton wouldn’t let her alight the Falmer train & board the train to Chichester without leaving the platform and re-entering the platform. She has a ticket! It’s ridiculous!

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@SouthernRailUK
Hi guys, whilst I appreciate the need for a revenue protection team at Brighton Station (I'm a long time season ticket holding commuter) its quite frustrating when trying to make the very tight connections from..

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If you cause a passenger to miss a booked connection due to your revenue block at Brighton, which affects some connecting passengers, will you compensate them with Delay Repay,
@TLRailUK ?

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@SouthernRailUK
Who can I complain to about the way passengers are being treated at Brighton station? You're kettling customers and not treating paying passengers fairly

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2024 ==

In the last year I think I've seen them twice.

They began a massive blockade 3 weeks ago. Unless you're Doctor Who, you won't have seen them over the course of a year.


Edited to include quotes of select tweets.

 

[paul1609]

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They began 1 month ago so that isn't surprising. Perhaps you'd like a list of people complaining?

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2024 ==


They began a massive blockade 3 weeks ago. Unless you're Doctor Who, you won't have seen them over the course of a year.

I've heard a rumour it's not actually a blockade, it's a test for the permanent re-arrangement of the barriers to accommodate contactless on the London services which will also lead to the Thameslink only fares being abolished.
Apparently it is perceived that if contactless is enabled on all the barriers, whatever signeage is displayed people will still tap in for coastway destinations causing thousands of uncompleted journeys.

 

[AlbertBeale]

They began 1 month ago so that isn't surprising. Perhaps you'd like a list of people complaining?

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2024 ==


They began a massive blockade 3 weeks ago. Unless you're Doctor Who, you won't have seen them over the course of a year.

Well - I guess the "massive blockade" must just be very intermittent; it's certainly not some sort of new standard system, since there's been no sign of it on any of the several occasions I've used Brighton in the last month.

I

I've heard a rumour it's not actually a blockade, it's a test for the permanent re-arrangement of the barriers to accommodate contactless on the London services which will also lead to the Thameslink only fares being abolished.
Apparently it is perceived that if contactless is enabled on all the barriers, whatever signeage is displayed people will still tap in for coastway destinations causing thousands of uncompleted journeys.

Seems a bit unlikely that they'd try separate barriers off the platforms for each of the 3 routes, since some platforms are shared use...

Would the incomplete journey problem be any worse than already on the BML, with announcements on trains at Gatwick that it's the last station covered by Oyster?

By the way - can you say more about "I've heard a rumour"??

 

[JonathanH]

Seems a bit unlikely that they'd try separate barriers off the platforms for each of the 3 routes, since some platforms are shared use...

Isn't 'shared use' just a matter of timetabling. London from Brighton is currently 6tph, which ought to be possible to accommodate in platforms 3 to 6. Then 1 and 2 for the West and 7 and 8 for the East. For most of the weekday timetable, this is achieved.

 

[Bikeman78]

Re Brighton, it doesnt show as an official connection because its a Southern to Gatwick Express connection but if the Southampton train is on time its easily achievable typically platform 2 to 4. I walk past it on my way to the Eastbourne train on platform7.

What is the reason for different connection times at Brighton? Especially given that the trains with the shortest allowance are usually the furthest apart. There is no way I would chance a +4 regardless.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Well - I guess the "massive blockade" must just be very intermittent;

Or you just don't travel through the station everyday but must comment on it regardless? I don't know what it is but I've experienced this blockade on all days bar 1 for the last three weeks and I travel at all times through the day from first to last train.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Or you just don't travel through the station everyday but must comment on it regardless? I don't know what it is but I've experienced this blockade on all days bar 1 for the last three weeks and I travel at all times through the day from first to last train.

It's not a matter of "must comment". There were people talking as though there was a new system at Brighton station, rather than something that happened on and off. I was merely pointing out that as someone often there - albeit not daily like you - I had never seen any sign of it at any time. Simply stating a fact. If it doesn't accord with other people's impressions, so be it; it's a factual statement of my experience and I have as much right to say what I've experienced as anyone else has. I was quite clear how often I was there, so people reading this can make their own judgement as to whose experience is more typical.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Isn't 'shared use' just a matter of timetabling. London from Brighton is currently 6tph, which ought to be possible to accommodate in platforms 3 to 6. Then 1 and 2 for the West and 7 and 8 for the East. For most of the weekday timetable, this is achieved.

Although they are timetabled (for the most part), you can't really completely segregate the gatelines (i.e, 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8, all different companies and/or services), because they often can be switched during times of disruption, so that would require ticket barriers to have to be constantly reprogrammed (e.g. from GX to SN East Coastway) if a train has just been diverted. Ultimately, it's just a solution which wouldn't work in any practical sense. Besides, they need all the gatelines they can possibly have for services, so for the forseeable future, I would imagine if contactless ever did come to Brighton, they would need a dozen signs up telling people they cannot use contactless on the East and West Coastway lines, because if this idea of unfinished journeys was to happen, there would be a public outrage at people being effectively scammed because they can't tap out and instead get penalty fares if they don't understand the system.
By the way, does anyone know what the contactless limit is for typical banks, because I have been thinking if contactless was allowed for very long journeys, particularly at the height of peak time, it's inevitable that journey's would overrun the contactless limit, and they would need to get some other way to get people to pay the fare if a payment cannot be authorised at a ticket barrier due to the size of the fare? Obviously London has to be drawn in a way where that won't happen, but I'm sure it would happen, say if someone was travelling Brighton to Bedford if contactless also expanded that far north at the same time.

 

[paul1609]

Although they are timetabled (for the most part), you can't really completely segregate the gatelines (i.e, 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8, all different companies and/or services), because they often can be switched during times of disruption, so that would require ticket barriers to have to be constantly reprogrammed (e.g. from GX to SN East Coastway) if a train has just been diverted. Ultimately, it's just a solution which wouldn't work in any practical sense. Besides, they need all the gatelines they can possibly have for services, so for the forseeable future, I would imagine if contactless ever did come to Brighton, they would need a dozen signs up telling people they cannot use contactless on the East and West Coastway lines, because if this idea of unfinished journeys was to happen, there would be a public outrage at people being effectively scammed because they can't tap out and instead get penalty fares if they don't understand the system.
By the way, does anyone know what the contactless limit is for typical banks, because I have been thinking if contactless was allowed for very long journeys, particularly at the height of peak time, it's inevitable that journey's would overrun the contactless limit, and they would need to get some other way to get people to pay the fare if a payment cannot be authorised at a ticket barrier due to the size of the fare? Obviously London has to be drawn in a way where that won't happen, but I'm sure it would happen, say if someone was travelling Brighton to Bedford if contactless also expanded that far north at the same time.

I think Brighton would be fine. West Coastway is 1/2,London 3-6 and East Coastway 7/8.
You just have a side gate so that a West Coastway train can leave from platform 3. I dont think Ive ever left for the East other than 7/8.
Its done at Victoria so non Gat Ex can use the Gat Ex platforms theres absolutely no reason why the same arrangement couldnt exist at Brighton

 

[Starmill]

I think Brighton would be fine. West Coastway is 1/2,London 3-6 and East Coastway 7/8.
You just have a side gate so that a West Coastway train can leave from platform 3. I dont think Ive ever left for the East other than 7/8.
Its done at Victoria so non Gat Ex can use the Gat Ex platforms theres absolutely no reason why the same arrangement couldnt exist at Brighton

You wouldn't even need to open the manual gate except for short trains to London diverted via Angmering, or a platform alteration. The main gatelines could simply accept tickets as normal.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

You wouldn't even need to open the manual gate except for short trains to London diverted via Angmering, or a platform alteration.

Never forget the booked trains that run on Saturday nights via Hove.

The main issue, in my view, would be during service disruption where all platforms would be in use for all services. My main point of contenture is the complete segregation which prevents easy connections to be made, rather than simply having a much larger gateline which would negate a large number of these issues.

Stations in the Netherlands which use the OV-Chipkaart have clearly branded different gatelines depending on your operator without cutting the stations in two. Have the current gateline as the London gateline and use the overhead displays to clearly show the contactless symbol, and have new gates for each of the coastways on either side which don't accept CPAY. Unless contactless is rolled out across the coastways you'll end up with situations similar to Stansted Airport no matter what you do.

 

[Kite159]

I think Brighton would be fine. West Coastway is 1/2,London 3-6 and East Coastway 7/8.
You just have a side gate so that a West Coastway train can leave from platform 3. I dont think Ive ever left for the East other than 7/8.
Its done at Victoria so non Gat Ex can use the Gat Ex platforms theres absolutely no reason why the same arrangement couldnt exist at Brighton

However at Victoria nobody will be changing trains on the 'paid' side of the gateline for the southern part of the station.

Forcing passengers changing from East to West at Brighton by making them go via one gateline and back in via a second is just a disaster waiting to happen as no doubt the gateline on entering will throw a hissy fit as the ticket would have been used less than a minute earlier, yet along the tickets which won't operate the barriers.

They will need to increase the minimum connection time to something idiotic like 15 minutes to cater for passengers being forced to exit and then re-enter

 

[Starmill]

Never forget the booked trains that run on Saturday nights via Hove.

The main issue, in my view, would be during service disruption where all platforms would be in use for all services. My main point of contenture is the complete segregation which prevents easy connections to be made, rather than simply having a much larger gateline which would negate a large number of these issues.

Stations in the Netherlands which use the OV-Chipkaart have clearly branded different gatelines depending on your operator without cutting the stations in two. Have the current gateline as the London gateline and use the overhead displays to clearly show the contactless symbol, and have new gates for each of the coastways on either side which don't accept CPAY. Unless contactless is rolled out across the coastways you'll end up with situations similar to Stansted Airport no matter what you do.

Congestion is certainly a likely issue which isn't easy to do anything about. Currently there's little issue with it for interchange passengers. Perhaps it'd be better for everyone if it were to remain that way.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I think Brighton would be fine. West Coastway is 1/2,London 3-6 and East Coastway 7/8.
You just have a side gate so that a West Coastway train can leave from platform 3. I dont think Ive ever left for the East other than 7/8.
Its done at Victoria so non Gat Ex can use the Gat Ex platforms theres absolutely no reason why the same arrangement couldnt exist at Brighton

Yes - it's rare for East services to use other than 7/8 at Brighton (though it does happen); but London services have frequently used 7 in recent times.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Congestion is certainly a likely issue which isn't easy to do anything about. Currently there's little issue with it for interchange passengers. Perhaps it'd be better for everyone if it were to remain that way.

Absolutely agreed, and there would be a better case in my opinon for improving connections in the longer term such as with a footbridge at the far end of at least some of platforms, which in turn could make certain connections quicker and mitigate crowding at the gateline.
In all likelihood now thinking about it, if contactless was to come as far as Brighton, there would very soon be suggestions of expanding it further, which would likely include both of the coastway lines, among other lines including the Arun Valley. If they expand it further, it will only keep expanding until maybe they are at the boundary of where contactless would practically work before people would need to enter pins, which would defeat much of the convenience at that point.
With

Yes - it's rare for East services to use other than 7/8 at Brighton (though it does happen); but London services have frequently used 7 in recent times.

Indeed. Mainly for my own amusement, i often just read out the announcements at certain stations using departure boards, and i think i remember reading out platform 7 for some london service, possibly Gatwick express. The main reason its just 7/8 for east coastway is just the traffic on the east coastway usually only being sufficient enough that it fits in 2 platforms normally, same for the west coastway. Its just BML is more surplus due to the removal of the Southern Victoria services before the Gatwick upgrades, which cant come back because they are now Coastway East trains, and in turn boost capacity on both coastway lines by removing the Haywards Heath division.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Congestion is certainly a likely issue which isn't easy to do anything about. Currently there's little issue with it for interchange passengers. Perhaps it'd be better for everyone if it were to remain that way.

Quite.

but London services have frequently used 7 in recent times.

My Thameslink the other evening used 8, never mind 7.

 

[paul1609]

However at Victoria nobody will be changing trains on the 'paid' side of the gateline for the southern part of the station.

Forcing passengers changing from East to West at Brighton by making them go via one gateline and back in via a second is just a disaster waiting to happen as no doubt the gateline on entering will throw a hissy fit as the ticket would have been used less than a minute earlier, yet along the tickets which won't operate the barriers.

They will need to increase the minimum connection time to something idiotic like 15 minutes to cater for passengers being forced to exit and then re-enter

This is exactly what the revenue checks have been doing without issue though. From Appledore to Portsmouth I go out the East Coastway Gates then immediately back in the West. No way does it need 15 minutes,maybe a couple of extra minutes. The extra journeytime is no where as long as splitting the Brighton to Ashford service at Eastbourne has caused.