2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[AlterEgo]

Yes I do S.A. iwas a racist state pre1994.

I do not think Israel is a racist state in a similar way.

I do not think it operates on similar grounds . Can you give examples to explain the point you are attempting to make?

Sure. South Africa - which knows a thing or two about the subject - accuses Israel of apartheid. Because that is exactly what Israel does; it treats its little Arab exclaves as bantustans. Israel has ethnically cleansed Arab Muslims away from their land to settle it for themselves and has ensured that no Arab Muslim or Arab Israeli can ever hold political power. It allows, enforced by the law, segregated settlements by religion or nationality. It has ensured the material and political impoverishment of Arabs that live in Israel. Arabs are unable to participate fully as citizens in a very similar way to black, coloured and Indian people experienced in South Africa.

 

[farleigh]

Sure. South Africa - which knows a thing or two about the subject - accuses Israel of apartheid. Because that is exactly what Israel does; it treats its little Arab exclaves as bantustans. Israel has ethnically cleansed Arab Muslims away from their land to settle it for themselves and has ensured that no Arab Muslim or Arab Israeli can ever hold political power. It allows, enforced by the law, segregated settlements by religion or nationality. It has ensured the material and political impoverishment of Arabs that live in Israel. Arabs are unable to participate fully as citizens in a very similar way to black, coloured and Indian people experienced in South Africa.

Ok - a reasoned post that has taught me a little more than I knew before. thank you for your time.

Are there any countries in the region that treat Jews in a similar fashion to that which you have described? Open question really - I don;t expect you to reply yourself.

I suspect that there are but I do not know the answer for sure. Maybe Iran??

 

[GusB]

Yes I do S.A. iwas a racist state pre1994.

I do not think Israel is a racist state in a similar way.

I do not think it operates on similar grounds . Can you give examples to explain the point you are attempting to make?

Palestinians are treated very differently to Israelis.

Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests

Israeli authorities have dramatically increased their use of administrative detention, a form of arbitrary detention, of Palestinians across the occupied West Bank; extended emergency measures that facilitate inhuman and degrading treatment of prisoners; and failed to investigate incidents of...

www.amnesty.org

Israeli authorities have dramatically increased their use of administrative detention, a form of arbitrary detention, of Palestinians across the occupied West Bank; extended emergency measures that facilitate inhuman and degrading treatment of prisoners; and failed to investigate incidents of torture and death in custody over the past four weeks, Amnesty International said today.

Since 7 October, Israeli forces have detained more than 2,200 Palestinian men and women, according to the Palestinian Prisoners’ Club. According to Israeli human rights organization HaMoked between 1 October and 1 November, the total number of Palestinians held in administrative detention, without charge or trial, rose from 1,319 to 2,070.

Testimony from released detainees and human rights lawyers, as well as video footage and images illustrate some of the forms of torture and other ill-treatment prisoners have been subjected to by Israeli forces over the past four weeks. These include severe beatings and humiliation of detainees, including by forcing them to keep their heads down, to kneel on the floor during inmate count, and to sing Israeli songs.

Fact Sheet: Movement and Access in the West Bank, August 2023

www.unocha.org

Fact Sheet: Movement and Access in the West Bank, August 2023​

Key Facts

• In early 2023, OCHA documented 565 movement obstacles in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and excluding H2. These include 49 checkpoints constantly staffed by Israeli forces or private security companies, 139 occasionally staffed checkpoints, 304 roadblocks, earth-mounds and road gates, and 73 earth walls, road barriers and trenches.
• Additionally, 80 obstacles, including 28 constantly staffed checkpoints, segregate part of the Israeli-controlled area of Hebron (H2) from the remainder of the city; many checkpoints are fortified with metal detectors, surveillance cameras and face recognition technology, and with facilities for detention and interrogation.
• Combined, there are 645 physical obstacles, an increase of about 8% compared with the 593 obstacles recorded in the previous OCHA closure survey in January-February 2020.
• Specifically, the number of occasionally staffed checkpoints has increased by 35% and that of road gates by 8%. While these remain open most of the time, they can be closed at any moment. In 2022 there were 1,032 instances (or 293 days) where nonpermanent checkpoints were staffed across the West Bank.
• Over half of the obstacles (339 out of 645) have been assessed by OCHA to have a severe impact on Palestinians by preventing or restricting access and movement to main roads, urban centres, services, and agricultural areas.
• In 2022, Israeli forces also deployed an average of four ad hoc 'flying' checkpoints each week along West Bank roads.
• In addition, the 712 kilometre-long Israeli Barrier (65% of which is built) runs mostly inside the West Bank. Most Palestinian farmers with land isolated by the Barrier can access their groves through 69 gates; however, most of the time, the Israeli authorities keep these gates shut.
• Palestinians holding West Bank IDs require permits from the Israeli authorities to enter East Jerusalem through three designated checkpoints, except for men over 55 and women over 50.
• In 2022, 15% of permit applications by West Bank patients seeking care in East Jerusalem or Israeli health facilities and 20% of permit applications for their companions were not approved by the time of the scheduled appointment. Also in 2022, 93% of ambulance transfers to East Jerusalem were delayed due to the 'back-to-back' procedure, where patients are transferred from a Palestinian to an Israeli-licensed ambulance at checkpoints due to restrictions imposed by Israeli authorities.
• Access to 20% of the West Bank is prohibited by Israeli military order on the grounds that the area is designated as a 'firing zone' for military training, or as a border buffer zone.
• Palestinians' access to the about 10% of the West Bank lying within the municipal boundaries of Israeli settlements, is also prohibited by military order; many farmers can only reach their private land within or around settlements twice a year at most, subject to approval from Israeli authorities.1

If these aren't the actions of an apartheid state, I don't know what is. People are prevented from or suffer delays to accessing employment, farms and healthcare. This is not a new situation either; this has been going on for years.

I haven't touched on the settlements that continue apace, despite the UN Resolutions. Can you imagine being turfed out of your home without compensation and watching it being demolished to make way for new Israeli settlements? Would you not feel ever so slightly aggrieved?

 

[spyinthesky]

So what will bombing do to help the situation? Absolutely nothing.

It will just cause the radicalisation of more Palestinians and likely turn some into a new generation of terrorists.

It will do absolutely nothing for peace in the region.

Absolutely correct on all 3 counts in most people’s opinion but unfortunately not the Israelis.
This is but a small chapter in a rather large epic that neither side can win in the foreseeable.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok - a reasoned post that has taught me a little more than I knew before. thank you for your time.

Are there any countries in the region that treat Jews in a similar fashion to that which you have described? Open question really - I don;t expect you to reply yourself.

I suspect that there are but I do not know the answer for sure. Maybe Iran??

There are other countries in the region that treat Jews appallingly, but that does not have any bearing on the worth of Palestinian lives or the morality of apartheid as a policy.

 

[GusB]

I think I may have mentioned the frequent shootings of Palestinians, but I'll mention it again.

‘It was an execution’: family mourns boy shot dead by Israeli forces

Nihal Abu Ayash, 16, was reportedly the 100th Palestinian child to be killed in the West Bank since Hamas’s 7 October attack

www.theguardian.com

Nihal Abu Ayash was wearing his football kit and carrying his school bag when he was shot in the head and killed after Israeli forces opened fire in the West Bank town of Beit Ummar.

The first bullet reportedly hit the 16-year-old in the leg. He collapsed, and as he tried to stand up, he was shot for a second time in the head, according to the schoolboy’s family.


“It was an execution,” said Ziad Abu Ayash, Nihal’s father. “There was no need to kill him. He didn’t have a gun, he didn’t have a tank. There is no excuse. It is a crime.”

Surrounded by mourners at the family home in Beit Ummar, the 62-year-old added: “I cannot heal. This pain will not leave me. The shock and the devastation will not leave me.”


Nihal was the 100th Palestinian child to be killed in the occupied West Bank since Hamas’s 7 October attack on Israel, according to the human rights group Defense for Children International – Palestine (DCIP).

And another:

Four children killed as Israeli bombardment escalates

Game ends in death for the sons of fishermen, cut down on a sunny and clear afternoon

www.independent.co.uk

Four young boys – members of the same family – playing football and hide and seek on the beach were killed today by what is believed to have been gunfire from Israeli warships carrying out a blockade of Gaza.

The attack on the fishing port in Gaza City came at just after four o’clock on a sunny and clear afternoon with good visibility. The group of cousins, aged between nine and 11, were around what looked like a derelict shed when they were hit by a shell from the direction of the sea.


Three of them managed to run to the terrace of a hotel, where their injures were treated by staff and journalists who have been staying there.


Of the four others, who had more severe wounds, one died at the scene, the other three after arriving at the hospital.

“The kids were playing football on the beach. They were all... under the age of 15,” said witness Ahmed Abu Hassera, 22.

All the victims were sons of fishermen. Ismael Mohammed Bakr, nine, Zakaria Ahed Bakr and Ahed Atif Bakr, both 10, and Mohammed Ramiz Bakr, were the dead. There was grief and rage with an uncle, Abdel Kareem Bakr, accusing the Israeli forces of “cold blooded massacre”.


“It’s a shame they didn’t identify them as just kids with all the advanced technology they had been using,” he said. “I don’t know what justification they will use for what they did, but our boys are now gone.”

Nine days of violence has cost 213 lives and led to more than 1,200 injuries in Gaza. The overwhelming number of civilian dead, including children, have come from air strikes. The Israeli military have, however, repeatedly targeted the port, destroying a number of buildings as well as vessels.

The IDF doesn't really think twice about shooting kids. Shoot first, ask questions later. They're only Palestinians anyway, so what does it matter, eh?

That's two examples; sadly there's much, much more where that came from. It makes my blood boil; how do you think they feel?

 

[Belperpete]

My point was the escalation. It was not Israel that escalated the conflict.

But it has undeniably escalated the conflict since. And actions it took previously, such as systematic annexations of Palestinian lands, have escalated the conflict beforehand. As was previously pointed out, this conflict did not begin on Oct 7.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2024 ==

I do not believe Israel is setting out to bomb civilians. That is not to say that civilians are not being killed and injured, they are. Its a war; not everything goes according to the plan. If Israel were targeting civilians, then it should end up in the Hague; if this were true, I believe the US would have stepped in by now.

I could have believed this for the first week or so after 7 October. But when it rapidly became obvious that IDF actions were killing thousands of innocent civilians, they did not stop, and have not stopped since. One can only concluded that they are deliberately killing innocent civilians. They claim that they are targeting Hamas, but the reality is that only a very small proportion of the arms they are using are guided missiles -;the majority are not. In practice, they are just bombing the civilian population.

Israel is already up before the ICC and ICJ. Even the US is starting to question it's actions. I suspect that the US's failure to act has a lot to do with it being an election year there - Trump has been very quiet about the conflict.

If Hamas are "murderous thugs" for killing 1400 innocent civilians, what does that make the IDF who have killed 40,000 odd innocent civilians?


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2024 ==

Perhaps not with its current borders, but surely U.N. Resolution 181 gives Israel the right to exist?

Agreed, but the UN also put strict limits on the numbers of settlers, to ensure that the indigenous Palestinian population were not overwhelmed. The Israeli government promptly ignored that, which is the root cause of the current conflict.

And Israel has since been subject to more UN resolutions than any other country by an order of magnitude, for its treatment of its indigenous Palestinian population.

I found Netanyahu's ranting about the actions of Ireland and several other European countries in recognising Palestine as "encouraging terrorism" as especially hypocritical, considering that Israel was a state founded by terrorists and governed by ex-terrorists for much of its existence.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Benny Gantz has resigned tonight along with other senior military figures. Lets hope this is an inflection point to bring this war to at least a pause.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clkkdymdwlvo

Israeli war cabinet minister Benny Gantz has quit the emergency government in a sign of deepening divisions over Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's post-conflict plans for Gaza.

Speaking during a news conference in Tel Aviv on Sunday where he announced his resignation, Mr Gantz said the decision was made with a "heavy heart".

"Unfortunately, Mr Netanyahu is preventing us from approaching true victory, which is the justification for the painful ongoing crisis," he said.

Considered by some to be a potential challenger for power in Israel, Mr Gantz called on Mr Netanyahu to set a date for elections.

Mr Netanyahu responded with a post on X: “Benny, this is not the time to quit the campaign, this is the time to join forces."

Opposition leader Yair Lapid backed Mr Gantz's decision as “important and right” on social media.

Immediately after the announcement, far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir demanded a place in the war cabinet.

Mr Ben-Gvir is part of a right-wing coalition that has threatened to quit and collapse the government if Israel accepts a ceasefire proposal put forward by US President Joe Biden.

Last month, Mr Gantz set a deadline of 8 June for Mr Netanyahu to lay out how Israel would achieve its six "strategic goals", including the end of Hamas rule in Gaza and the establishment of a multinational civilian administration for the territory.

 

[brad465]

Benny Gantz has resigned tonight along with other senior military figures. Lets hope this is an inflection point to bring this war to at least a pause.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clkkdymdwlvo

Further to this, the UN Security Council, notorious for having someone veto almost everything put to it, has passed a resolution backing the US ceasefire proposal:

UN Security Council backs US Israel-Gaza ceasefire plan

The proposal sets out conditions for a "complete ceasefire" and the release of hostages held by Hamas.

www.bbc.co.uk

The United Nations Security Council has voted to support a US-proposed Israel-Gaza ceasefire plan.

It sets out conditions for a "full and complete ceasefire", the release of hostages held by Hamas, the return of dead hostages' remains and the exchange of Palestinian prisoners.

Fourteen of the 15 Security Council members, including the US, voted in favour of the resolution. Russia abstained.

The resolution states that Israel has accepted the ceasefire proposal, and urges Hamas to agree to it, too.

The plan has three phases that would end with a major reconstruction plan for Gaza, which has been largely destroyed in the conflict.

The first phase of the plan concerns a hostage-prisoner swap as well as a short-term ceasefire.

The second phase includes a "permanent end to hostilities", as well as a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza, according to a text of the US draft resolution.

The third phase focuses on the enclave's long-term outlook, and it would start a multi-year reconstruction plan for Gaza.

Monday's resolution comes weeks after President Joe Biden said the Israelis had agreed to a three-phase plan that would result in a permanent ceasefire in Gaza.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has publicly rebuked parts of the resolution, and repeatedly said he plans to proceed with military operations until Hamas is destroyed.

Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the US Ambassador to the UN, welcomed the Security Council move, saying: "Today we voted for peace".

UK Ambassador Barbara Woodward described the situation in Gaza as "catastrophic", adding that the "suffering has gone on for far too long".

"We call upon the parties to seize this opportunity and move towards lasting peace which guarantees security and stability for both the Israeli and Palestinian people," Ms Woodward said.

On 25 March, the UN Security Council passed a resolution calling for a ceasefire.

While the US had previously vetoed similar measures, it did not veto the March resolution.

Mr Netanyahu said at the time that the US had "abandoned" its prior position linking a ceasefire to the release of hostages.

The conflict began when Hamas attacked southern Israel on 7 October, killing about 1,200 people and taking some 251 people hostage.

The Hamas-run health ministry says the death toll in Gaza has surpassed 37,000 since Israel responded to its attack.

 

[renegademaster]

didn't take a robust response, si

We certainly could have took a much more robust response compared to what the IRA got. The Malayan Emergency had more intense conflict involved including putting people in concentration camps for being Chinese.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Do the majority of Palestinians support Hamas

It's obviously difficult to know but out of the two Palestinian factions, Fatah which rules the west Bank and Hamas in Gaza, only Hamas has won democratic elections, said elections being the result of pressure by the W Bush administration, that probably wernt the best idea.

 

[Yew]

It's obviously difficult to know but out of the two Palestinian factions, Fatah which rules the west Bank and Hamas in Gaza, only Hamas has won democratic elections, said elections being the result of pressure by the W Bush administration, that probably wernt the best idea.

That doesn't feel particuarly current...

 

[renegademaster]

That doesn't feel particuarly current...

Neither are the endless inappropriate comparisons to the troubles

 

[Yew]

Neither are the endless inappropriate comparisons to the troubles

Those comparisons happened in the last few days George W Bush hasn't been president for over a decade?

 

[renegademaster]

Those comparisons happened in the last few days George W Bush hasn't been president for over a decade?

The Violent Northern Ireland conflict has largely been over for two decades. Most importantly, the elections Bush forced through where the last one and closet we will likely to have ever to a democratic poll.

 

[778]

What I don't seem to understand is that anyone who is right wing supports Israel and anyone who is left wing supports Palestine. Hardly anyone criticizes them both equally. There are a few Labour politicians who support Israel (and they are Labour moderates), but I don't know of any Conservatives who support Palestine, not a single one. I think that Hamas and the Israeli government are as bad as each other, but no one else seems to think that.

Do right wing people support Israel because of guilt over the Holocaust?

 

[renegademaster]

but I don't know of any Conservatives who support Palestine, not a single one

Crispin Blunt is the closest

 

[Yew]

The Violent Northern Ireland conflict has largely been over for two decades.

Yes, but the comparison to the conflict that started last year, has unsuprisingly only been raised within the last year.

Most importantly, the elections Bush forced through where the last one and closet we will likely to have ever to a democratic poll.

That does not mean that it is an accurate representation of what is going on now, 2006 is 18 years ago; by that logic perhaps we should have predicted the results of the 2015 election based on the results from 1997?

 

[Bantamzen]

What I don't seem to understand is that anyone who is right wing supports Israel and anyone who is left wing supports Palestine. Hardly anyone criticizes them both equally. There are a few Labour politicians who support Israel (and they are Labour moderates), but I don't know of any Conservatives who support Palestine, not a single one. I think that Hamas and the Israeli government are as bad as each other, but no one else seems to think that.

I think exactly this, I'm sick of seeing protest after protest about saving Palestine without a single whisper about what Hamas want and what they have brought about in all of this. As you say, both the Israeli and Gaza governments are as bad as each other. There are signs that Israeli is starting to push back against it's administration, its a shame we are not able to see if there is any in Gaza.

 

[Belperpete]

Neither are the endless inappropriate comparisons to the troubles

Why are they inappropriate? Both conflicts are/were seemingly unsolvable, with the two sides having mutually exclusive objectives, and with an armed force deeply embedded in the civilian population. The similarities seem particularly pertinent to me.

 

[renegademaster]

Why are they inappropriate? Both conflicts are/were seemingly unsolvable, with the two sides having mutually exclusive objectives, and with an armed force deeply embedded in the civilian population. The similarities seem particularly pertinent to me.

Because the IRA where much tamer than Hamas and while atrocities did happen they where a lot less keen to hurt civilians. Protestants/Ulster-Scots would have been allowed to live in a United Ireland.

 

[DustyBin]

What I don't seem to understand is that anyone who is right wing supports Israel and anyone who is left wing supports Palestine. Hardly anyone criticizes them both equally. There are a few Labour politicians who support Israel (and they are Labour moderates), but I don't know of any Conservatives who support Palestine, not a single one. I think that Hamas and the Israeli government are as bad as each other, but no one else seems to think that.

Im right wing and support Israel’s right to defend itself, and also support the Palestinian’s right to self determination (in other words some kind of two state solution).

Whilst Israel’s response to the October 7th atrocity has been brutal, and has at times demonstrated a reckless disregard for Palestinian lives, I can’t see how the Israelis can be expected to coexist with a death cult hell bent on their destruction. Where the Israelis have committed war crimes people should be held to account; they must not be given carte blanche to kill innocent people. Hamas however have to go as there can be no peace as long as they control Gaza, unless they denounce their “charter” which they show no sign of doing. Basically, it’s a total mess.

I suspect there a loads of people with moderate views, but the debate is toxic and is dominated by the more extreme voices. You’re either for X or against X which is ridiculous given the complexity of the situation, the history, and the lack of an obvious workable solution.

Do right wing people support Israel because of guilt over the Holocaust?

I’m not sure if you’re serious, but no. I believe a lot of the right support Israel due to them being less inclined to sympathise with so-called “freedom fighters”, and the fact that they recognise Israel as a vital strategic ally. Some will inevitably feel the need to counter the rent-a-gob element of the left as well I suspect!

I think exactly this, I'm sick of seeing protest after protest about saving Palestine without a single whisper about what Hamas want and what they have brought about in all of this. As you say, both the Israeli and Gaza governments are as bad as each other. There are signs that Israeli is starting to push back against it's administration, its a shame we are not able to see if there is any in Gaza.

I agree.

 

[nw1]

I think exactly this, I'm sick of seeing protest after protest about saving Palestine without a single whisper about what Hamas want and what they have brought about in all of this. As you say, both the Israeli and Gaza governments are as bad as each other. There are signs that Israeli is starting to push back against it's administration, its a shame we are not able to see if there is any in Gaza.

Is this not because Western politicial leaders appear to be taking sides on this, and failing to criticise Netanyahu and Likud robustly enough, and thus the protests are a reaction to that?

Essentially, everyone with moderate political views (rightly) believes that Hamas are violent, brutal terrorists. But not everyone believes the prolonged bombing campaign of Netanyahu and Likud against Gaza is brutal and abhorrent. The protests are an attempt to correct the balance and bring to light the apparent partisan attitude of much of the West.

 

[AlterEgo]

Whilst Israel’s response to the October 7th atrocity has been brutal, and has at times demonstrated a reckless disregard for Palestinian lives, I can’t see how the Israelis can be expected to coexist with a death cult hell bent on their destruction.

They could always leave. That's what happened to many white colonials in Africa, whose presence was only there because of violence displacing the local population. The colonists were driven out, by force, and usually the same amount of force which was used by their ancestors to set up empire in the first place.

Why is Israel any different? It is the world's last classical colony. That's what Zionism is - the last throes of 19th Century colonialism. They expelled the indigenous population and simply created a new state by force. Any justification of Zionism is a justification of empire and colonialism.

I believe a lot of the right support Israel due to them being less inclined to sympathise with so-called “freedom fighters”, and the fact that they recognise Israel as a vital strategic ally.

A lot of the right think Israel is a convenient receptacle for Jews to go which isn't, for example, Britain.

 

[nw1]

Im right wing and support Israel’s right to defend itself, and also support the Palestinian’s right to self determination (in other words some kind of two state solution).

Whilst Israel’s response to the October 7th atrocity has been brutal, and has at times demonstrated a reckless disregard for Palestinian lives, I can’t see how the Israelis can be expected to coexist with a death cult hell bent on their destruction. Where the Israelis have committed war crimes people should be held to account; they must not be given carte blanche to kill innocent people. Hamas however have to go as there can be no peace as long as they control Gaza, unless they denounce their “charter” which they show no sign of doing. Basically, it’s a total mess.

The question is: is an 8-month long bombing campaign an appropriate means to deal with Hamas, or is it completely over the top? Are the innocent Palestinians who have died just collateral to achieve this aim? Is it acceptable for them to be collateral?

Or should there be limits on what is morally acceptable to deal with threats to your country? The answer is obviously yes, but it's a question of where the boundary lies; and I think many of us on the more Gaza-sympathetic side do not believe that bombing of innocent civilians, lasting eight months or more, is in any way appropriate or acceptable.

 

[renegademaster]

They could always leave. That's what happened to many white colonials in Africa, whose presence was only there because of violence displacing the local population. The colonists were driven out, by force, and usually the same amount of force which was used by their ancestors to set up empire in the first place.

Why is Israel any different? It is the world's last classical colony. That's what Zionism is - the last throes of 19th Century colonialism. They expelled the indigenous population and simply created a new state by force. Any justification of Zionism is a justification of empire and colonialism.

When does this expire ? Most jews are 3 or 4 generations removed from the pre emigration homelands, and are legally not allowed back to most of them, either via uneligbility of citizenship(Most of Europe) or via explicit prohibition(lot of MENA). sure you wouldn't like Welsh trying to violently expell you back to Denmark

 

[AlterEgo]

When does this expire ? Most jews are 3 or 4 generations removed from the pre emigration homelands, and are legally not allowed back to most of them, either via uneligbility of citizenship(Most of Europe) or via explicit prohibition(lot of MENA). sure you wouldn't like Welsh trying to violently expell you back to Denmark

I suppose I could always flip that question and ask that of Palestinians and their ancestors who were forcibly and violently removed from their land.

The difference with your analogy is I'm not being forced to live, as the Palestinians are now, in a pseudo-bantustan jail state with pass laws. The idea that any country has a "right to exist" is just invention. Israel does not have a right any more than any other country - it exists only through force of arms and oppression of the people it ethnically cleansed. Of course they do not deserve physical extermination - an abhorrent fate which most of Hamas subscribes to - but the idea it has to exist in its current form is quite odd to me. It's a colony.

 

[renegademaster]

an abhorrent fate which most of Hamas subscribes to

Can you see now why Israel isn't fond of stopping the fight against them?

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you see now why Israel isn't fond of stopping the fight against them?

They’re committing a genocide against Palestinians and operating an apartheid state. That Hamas and Palestinian Arabs also have questionable moral values does not change the immorality of committing genocide or apartheid.

 

[Belperpete]

Because the IRA where much tamer than Hamas and while atrocities did happen they where a lot less keen to hurt civilians. Protestants/Ulster-Scots would have been allowed to live in a United Ireland.

I would certainly dispute that the IRA were a lot less keen to hurt civilians. Have you forgotten the Manchester bombing, or their attempt to bomb a rush hour commuter train into London Bridge, for example, not to forget their sustained bombing campaign in NI.

You seem to be saying that the IRA are the acceptable face of terrorism!

 

[AlterEgo]

I would certainly dispute that the IRA were a lot less keen to hurt civilians. Have you forgotten the Manchester bombing, or their attempt to bomb a rush hour commuter train into London Bridge, for example, not to forget their sustained bombing campaign in NI.

You seem to be saying that the IRA are the acceptable face of terrorism!

The IRA weren't out to literally eradicate British people. There is quite a clear difference even if the IRA were a reprehensible terror organisation which still killed nearly 2000 people over 25 years. They and Hamas are not the same.

(The Manchester bombing killed nobody, btw - an odd example as it was a bomb intended to disrupt commerce)