2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[yorkie]

My point was the escalation. It was not Israel that escalated the conflict.

You've ducked the question.

Also, if your people were oppressed, and you were treated like second class citizens by people of a different ethnicity, religion and culture, you would just accept it, and not do anything to resist?

If a population is oppressed, and denied fundamental rights and freedoms, different members of that population are going to react in different ways. While those who react violently aren't behaving acceptably, it is an absolutely foreseeable and inevitable consequence.

 

[baza585]

No it didn't. The conflict escalated then, because of the actions of Hamas and its members. Israel didn't do anything new in the lead-up to provoke that response from Hamas.

Indeed. Moreover Hamas had been firing rockets into Israel on an almost daily basis in the run up to 7 October, which Israel did not actively respond to.

The catalyst for the current Israeli action was 7 October in my opinion.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You've ducked the question.

Also, if your people were oppressed, and you were treated like second class citizens by people of a different ethnicity, religion and culture, you would just accept it, and not do anything to resist?

If a population is oppressed, and denied fundamental rights and freedoms, different members of that population are going to react in different ways. While those who react violently aren't behaving acceptably, it is an absolutely foreseeable and inevitable consequence.

I haven't ducked a question, your question was irrelevant to the point I was making.

I can't with any certainty say what I would do in that situation, but can say for certain that I would not get a paraglider and use it to attack teenagers at a music festival... unless I'd been brainwashed by a terror group. Given that this hypothetical oppressor also has a vastly superior military than the terror group that brainwashed me, I'd also expect the response to be firm and decisive.

 

[yorkie]

I haven't ducked a question, your question was irrelevant to the point I was making.

If you think it was irrelevant, that demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part.

I refer you to what people have said in response to your posts; you would do well to heed what others are saying.

I can't with any certainty say what I would do in that situation,

Exactly; you certainly do appear to be struggling to understand what life is like from the Palestinian perspective.

but can say for certain that I would not get a paraglider and use it to attack teenagers at a music festival... unless I'd been brainwashed by a terror group. Given that this hypothetical oppressor also has a vastly superior military than the terror group that brainwashed me, I'd also expect the response to be firm and decisive.

I refer you to my final paragraph in my above post.

 

[nw1]

My point was the escalation. It was not Israel that escalated the conflict.

You are assuming that almost 8 months of bombing innocent civilians is an appropriate response to the October atrocities, of course.

Some might say it was not.

I'd say both Hamas and the Israeli government escalated the conflict.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Providing drinking water and electricity (something the Hamas "government" failed to do) is a strange method of oppressing people. I'd rather be an Arab living in Israel than a Jew living in the Palestinian Territories, even at a time of (relative for the region) peace. In Israel I'd be a second-class citizen in some ways (assuming I was a citizen)- maybe I'd be more likely to be stopped by the police or searched when entering a stadium for example... but I'd also be permitted to stand for election to the Knesset, and have rights outlined in the constitution. A Jew living under Hamas would at best be forced to pay the Jizyah (tax on non-muslims) and be subjected to the sort of treatment that the Borat movie parodied. At worst, they'd be murdered or held hostage to secure the release of murderous terrorists.

Viewing the conflict through the neo-Marxist lens of oppressor/oppressed fundamentally misses the point. We have two populations, one of whom until recently was prepared to negotiate a peaceful solution, and one which wasn't prepared to do so. Yes, Israel is far more powerful both economically and militarily than the Palestinian territories, but there's also a stark difference in their worldviews and objectives. If Hamas stops fighting there will be peace, if Israel stops fighting there won't be an Israel.

In the past, the Palestinian Authority has been prepared to sit down and negotiate with Israel, when they were led by Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah. Even his predecessor Yasser Arafat, once an unrepentant terrorist himself, was prepared to lay down arms. Hamas are a different beast though. As their leaders have stated "We love death more than you love life". I'm not sure there's much point in negotiating with a group that has such a myopic view.


I want nothing more to see an end to the bloodshed in the region, but I can't see that happening as long as a group like Hamas are in the picture. If it were possible to take out the leadership by surgical-precision drone strikes, that would be ideal. Unfortunately they're all hiding either in the UAE while their people suffer, or in tunnels underneath schools and hospitals.

Even if Hamas were to be eradicated, there would be a huge effort needed to deradicalise those who have grown up under their leadership. If you are sceptical as to the level of brainwashing the average Palestinian child is subjected to, just Google "Farfour the mouse".

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You are assuming that almost 8 months of bombing innocent civilians is an appropriate response to the October atrocities, of course.

Some might say it was not.

I'd say both Hamas and the Israeli government escalated the conflict.

That makes no sense. If someone punches you and you punch them back harder, you still weren't the one that escalated things- you just responded to an attack in a way that will hopefully discourage future attacks.

I agree that the way Israel has responded isn't ideal, it certainly hasn't helped their standing in the world. I'd love for it to be all sunshine and rainbows in the region, but that isn't the real world.

 

[nw1]

That makes no sense. If someone punches you and you punch them back harder, you still weren't the one that escalated things- you just responded to an attack in a way that will hopefully discourage future attacks.

What if someone punches you and you punch not just them, but all their friends? Then you would be escalating things - and to me that seems a good analogy for the situation.

Is bombing and killing tens of thousands of innocent bystanders really, really not escalation?

 

[spyinthesky]

What if someone punches you and you punch not just them, but all their friends? Then you would be escalating things - and to me that seems a good analogy for the situation.

Or you could just wait till all their friends punch you as well, which is a strong scenario.

 

[yorkie]

Providing drinking water and electricity (something the Hamas "government" failed to do) is a strange method of oppressing people.

If drinking water and electricity are provided, that's all that matters, is that what you are suggesting?

Do all Palestinians have access to these, and other, essentials?

I'd rather be an Arab living in Israel than a Jew living in the Palestinian Territories,

I don't understand your logic; what about being a Palestinian living in what should be their own lands?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/05/26/west-bank-aid-trucks-gaza-settlers/

...The violence and vandalism, committed with near-total impunity, raises questions about the willingness of Israel’s security forces to restrain extremist settlers and protect Palestinians. It also challenges the Israeli government’s claim that it is doing all it can to ensure that aid flows to Gaza, where the humanitarian situation has deteriorated rapidly since IDF forces moved into the southern city of Rafah....

even at a time of (relative for the region) peace. In Israel I'd be a second-class citizen in some ways (assuming I was a citizen)- maybe I'd be more likely to be stopped by the police or searched when entering a stadium for example... but I'd also be permitted to stand for election to the Knesset, and have rights outlined in the constitution. A Jew living under Hamas would at best be forced to pay the Jizyah (tax on non-muslims) and be subjected to the sort of treatment that the Borat movie parodied. At worst, they'd be murdered or held hostage to secure the release of murderous terrorists.

Viewing the conflict through the neo-Marxist lens of oppressor/oppressed fundamentally misses the point.

If only you would stop missing the point, however, you consistently ignore the responses to your posts.

We have two populations, one of whom until recently was prepared to negotiate a peaceful solution, and one which wasn't prepared to do so.

That's a rather sweeping statement, with no evidence. Are you applying this to the whole of those populations? is this some sort of attempt at generalising?

Yes, Israel is far more powerful both economically and militarily than the Palestinian territories, but there's also a stark difference in their worldviews and objectives. If Hamas stops fighting there will be peace, if Israel stops fighting there won't be an Israel.

This is absolute nonsense and, again, ignores the points made by several members to you.

How much Israeli territory lays in ruins, and how much Palestinian territory lays in ruins, do you think?

In the past, the Palestinian Authority has been prepared to sit down and negotiate with Israel, when they were led by Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah. Even his predecessor Yasser Arafat, once an unrepentant terrorist himself, was prepared to lay down arms. Hamas are a different beast though. As their leaders have stated "We love death more than you love life". I'm not sure there's much point in negotiating with a group that has such a myopic view.


I want nothing more to see an end to the bloodshed in the region...

Whatever you may claim to want, your logic is deeply flawed.

but I can't see that happening as long as a group like Hamas are in the picture.

But you cannot "destroy" Hamas, as stated countless times. Launching a campaign of bombing, harassment and denial of rights against people does not make terrorism go away; it actually intensifies it.

The Israeli far-right is out of control, and you appear to be supporting them.

If it were possible to take out the leadership by surgical-precision drone strikes, that would be ideal. Unfortunately they're all hiding either in the UAE while their people suffer, or in tunnels underneath schools and hospitals.

Even if Hamas were to be eradicated, there would be a huge effort needed to deradicalise those who have grown up under their leadership. If you are sceptical as to the level of brainwashing the average Palestinian child is subjected to, just Google "Farfour the mouse".

I'm not "Googling" anything; the onus is on you to link to, and quote from, relevant sources. However you appear to be very selective in the sources you are reading.

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That makes no sense. If someone punches you and you punch them back harder, you still weren't the one that escalated things- you just responded to an attack in a way that will hopefully discourage future attacks.

That's a false equivalence and a deeply flawed logic.

I agree that the way Israel has responded isn't ideal, it certainly hasn't helped their standing in the world. I'd love for it to be all sunshine and rainbows in the region, but that isn't the real world.

Not "ideal" is an understatement; I don't understand why you appear to be so supportive of the Israeli far-right movement. There are numerous good people in Israel, or who are Jewish with links to Israel, who - quite rightly - speak out against the far-right movement; you should heed their advice.

Miriam Margolyes condemns Israel’s policy in Gaza, calling on Jews to ‘shout, beg, scream for a ceasefire’

In a recent clip, Margolyes added that ‘we have to do, as my mother used to say, the right thing … voice your disgust and detestation of the Israeli actions’

www.theguardian.com

Miriam Margolyes has called on Jews around the world to “shout, beg, scream for a ceasefire” in Gaza, saying she was “so ashamed of Israel” for defending its actions in the region.

In a video released via the Jewish Council of Australia, Margolyes, 82, said:


“To me, it seems as if Hitler has won. He’s changed us Jews from being compassionate and caring and do unto others as you would have them do unto you into this vicious, genocidal nationalist nation, pursuing and killing women and children.”

Read the full statement:​

Hello, I’m Miriam Margolyes, and I wanted to say something in support of the Jewish Council of Australia. I’m an Australian citizen. I’m 83 and I have never been so ashamed of Israel as I am at this moment. To me, it seems as if Hitler has won.

He’s changed us Jews from being compassionate and caring and do unto others as you would have them do unto you into this vicious genocidal nationalist nation, pursuing and killing women and children.

Of course, I condemn the Hamas action, of course I do. But what we are doing, Jewish people over in Israel, is shocking, embarrassing and wicked and I cannot understand why all Jewish people, particularly members of synagogues, do not want immediately to stop what is going on.

And in the name of humanity, I call upon all Jews to shout, beg, scream for a ceasefire.

It is not antisemitic to have a different opinion on the wartime actions now. We have to do, as my mother used to say, the right thing; the right thing is a ceasefire to stop the killing, certainly to beg and insist on the release of hostages. But there is an opinion about Israel’s actions, which it is not antisemitic to voice. What Israel is doing is wrong, it is wicked.

And, if you want to say this, is very bad for Israel. Please call on your rabbis, on your communities, on all the people you know. Voice your disgust and detestation of the Israeli actions. Please. You are then doing the right thing and behaving in accordance to the Jewish tradition.

Thank you.

Perhaps you can surprise me by heeding what she has to say, but I am not going to get my hopes up.

 

[nw1]

Or you could just wait till all their friends punch you as well, which is a strong scenario.

I'm not sure who you thought I was referring to, but the "friends" analogy I am trying to make are the Palestinians who have been bombed, yet did not actually commit the terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens.

 

[spyinthesky]

I'm not sure who you thought I was referring to, but the "friends" analogy I am trying to make are the Palestinians who have been bombed, yet did not actually commit the terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens.

Nor did the people of Dresden bomb London. I am sure that this example can be reflected in every conflict since time began.
There is no peaceful solution to either side. The strongest will commit more damage and the weak will commit more pain.

 

[nw1]

Nor did the people of Dresden bomb London. I am sure that this example can be reflected in every conflict since time began.
There is no peaceful solution to either side. The strongest will commit more damage and the weak will commit more pain.

So what will bombing do to help the situation? Absolutely nothing.

It will just cause the radicalisation of more Palestinians and likely turn some into a new generation of terrorists.

It will do absolutely nothing for peace in the region.

 

[baza585]

Dislike of the Israeli government and dislike of Hamas are not mutually exclusive. I'd agree that Hamas are "murderous thugs", in fact: but that does not absolve the Israeli government of guilt.

i agree completely.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If believing that Israel has a right to defend itself and protect its people makes me far-right, then I guess I'm far right. Though that term has been overused so much it's practically meaningless. Do I think the Netanyahu government has overstepped the mark? Yes... but that does not mean that they don't have a right to defend themselves. People throwing words like genocide and apartheid around when they do not apply, does not help in any way. There is only one side of this conflict that has genocidal intentions, and they don't hide that fact.

 

[nw1]

If believing that Israel has a right to defend itself and protect its people

Arguably, bombing civilians is not defence though, it's aggression.

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Do I think the Netanyahu government has overstepped the mark? Yes...

However, if you believe that, perhaps the above is not so relevant to this discussion.

 

[baza585]

You think Hamas can be "eradicated"? How long do you think that might take? And until then, do you think it's acceptable to inflict an incredible level of suffering on Palestinians?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2024 ==

The point i was making was that whilst Hamas exists as a credible fighting force in the region, a lasting peace (which would be to everyone's benefit) is not possible.

Is the same not true, the other way?

Do you mean do the Israelis hate the Gazans. Probably because some of them are firing rockets into their country on an almost daily basis.

However, factually the Knesset has about 10% members who are of Arab extraction, and human rights in Israel are far more well protected than in any of the neighbouring countries where being female or non-heterosexual generally means limited human rights.

You are entitled to your views, but they have been - quite rightly - widely challenged; you've not presented a convincing argument and I see no evidence for any of the claims you have made, so I hope you'll forgive me (and others) for not being convinced.

I must confess i was expecting to be challenged considerably more than i have been. So far I've had two posters challenge my views. You are one; the other was the poster to whom I was responding. I don't consider that constitutes "widely challenged". Do you?

If anything, reading your posts demonstrates how unjust the whole situation is and makes me more determined that the state of Israel be held to account for its actions.

Do you consider that Hamas and its state sponsors Iran should also be held to account?

Do you think a lasting solution is possible while Palestinians are treated in the manner they are being?

Sadly not. However, in my view, Hamas (and its Iranian paymasters) is at least as responsible as Israel for what has happened in Gaza. The atrocity on 7 October was not only barbaric in its execution, but woefully misjudged because Israel is militarily and economically superior and was always going to respond against Hamas with force, and that force was inevitably going to involve civilian as well as military casualties. If October 7 hadn't happened, Israel would not have invaded Gaza in my view.

The only hope I can see for a lasting two state settlement is some sort of demilitarised zone (DMZ) keeping the territories apart (similar to that which exists between North and South Korea). Sadly the UN is no longer a credible organisation to facilitate such a solution.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2024 ==

Arguably, bombing civilians is not defence though, it's aggression.

I do not believe Israel is setting out to bomb civilians. That is not to say that civilians are not being killed and injured, they are. Its a war; not everything goes according to the plan. If Israel were targeting civilians, then it should end up in the Hague; if this were true, I believe the US would have stepped in by now.

It is worth pointing out that the vast majority of Israelis killed raped or taken hostage on 7 October were also civilians.

 

[yorkie]

If believing that Israel has a right to defend itself and protect its people makes me far-right, then I guess I'm far right..

Are you claiming that Israel is doing nothing other than defending itself? Do you believe Israel's actions are in accordance with international law?

Though that term has been overused so much it's practically meaningless

How else would you describe such views?

. Do I think the Netanyahu government has overstepped the mark? Yes... but that does not mean that they don't have a right to defend themselves.

So you keep saying; but to suggest that Israel is doing nothing other than "defend itself" is absurd.

People throwing words like genocide and apartheid around when they do not apply, does not help in any way. There is only one side of this conflict that has genocidal intentions, and they don't hide that fact.

It's such a one-sided war, isn't it?

Which side do you think has suffered the most casualties?

 

[Sorcerer]

If believing that Israel has a right to defend itself and protect its people makes me far-right, then I guess I'm far right. Though that term has been overused so much it's practically meaningless. Do I think the Netanyahu government has overstepped the mark? Yes... but that does not mean that they don't have a right to defend themselves. People throwing words like genocide and apartheid around when they do not apply, does not help in any way. There is only one side of this conflict that has genocidal intentions, and they don't hide that fact.

It's not necessarily that Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself from foreign threats, it's more that the statement kind of simplifies the conflict and missed the greater nuance. Obviously Hamas are a terrible group of people and their actions on 7th October were not justified since the victims didn't do anything to deserve it, but the conflict didn't just start that day, and Hamas didn't just form out of a vacuum.

Israel has been subject to many human rights criticism for their treatment of Palestinians, and this is in part due to the likes of warmongers such as Netanyahu who believe that the land rightfully belongs to the Jewish people. So even if Israel's bombing campaigns did somehow turn the entirety of Hamas into a mere scorched shadow on the pavements of Gaza, it won't end there.

Plus, as the greater military power with more advanced capabilities, Israel has to make sure it's response is directly proportional to the threat it faces. To use your analogy earlier of punching someone, a child might start assaulting an adult, but the adult can't just throw their full force and weight into striking the child back and call it self-defence because then it's escalated beyond being a reasonable reaction.

 

[yorkie]

The point i was making was that whilst Hamas exists as a credible fighting force in the region, a lasting peace (which would be to everyone's benefit) is not possible.

Do you think that further oppressing Palestinians is going to reduce extremism?

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the far-right Israeli regime is actually stoking up even more resentment?

Do you really think that treating Palestinians in the way that the Israeli government has done, is going to make extremism go away?

Do you think "lasting peace" involves destroying Palestinian infrastructure, and having illegal Israeli settlements in Palestine, and the far-right Israeli regime allowing these settlers to attack Palestinians?

Do you mean do the Israelis hate the Gazans. Probably because some of them are firing rockets into their country on an almost daily basis.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps Palestinians are not happy with how the state of Israel, and far-right Israelis, are acting towards them?

However, factually the Knesset has about 10% members who are of Arab extraction, and human rights in Israel are far more well protected than in any of the neighbouring countries where being female or non-heterosexual generally means limited human rights.

Is this some form of attempt to detract from the atrocities Israel is committing?

I must confess i was expecting to be challenged considerably more than i have been. So far I've had two posters challenge my views. You are one; the other was the poster to whom I was responding. I don't consider that constitutes "widely challenged". Do you?

Five members have challenged your views, but I suspect the silent majority who are not supportive of the far-right Israeli regime aren't really interested in arguing with you.

For sure, most of the time I prefer not to get involved in this thread, and leave it to a few people to argue against the far-right views, but recent posts have made me feel compelled to respond (possibly to the detriment of my health; it's not good for my blood pressure)

Do you consider that Hamas and its state sponsors Iran should also be held to account?

Yes, wherever possible and practicable, all those who are responsible for war crimes should be held to account. But, note @Sorcerer 's post above.

Sadly not. However, in my view, Hamas (and its Iranian paymasters) is at least as responsible as Israel for what has happened in Gaza. The atrocity on 7 October was not only barbaric in its execution, but woefully misjudged because Israel is militarily and economically superior and was always going to respond against Hamas with force, and that force was inevitably going to involve civilian as well as military casualties. If October 7 hadn't happened, Israel would not have invaded Gaza in my view.

Israel was already illegally occupying Palestinian land and has been oppressing Palestinians for as long as any of us can remember.

The only hope I can see for a lasting two state settlement is some sort of demilitarised zone (DMZ) keeping the territories apart (similar to that which exists between North and South Korea). Sadly the UN is no longer a credible organisation to facilitate such a solution.

Why do you think the UN is not credible?

Do you think the Israeli government is credible?

I do not believe Israel is setting out to bomb civilians.

Roughly how many Palestinians do you think have died since 7 October? What number do you think may be considered acceptable?

That is not to say that civilians are not being killed and injured, they are.

This is an understatement

Its a war; not everything goes according to the plan.

Does that make it acceptable?

If Israel were targeting civilians, then it should end up in the Hague; if this were true, I believe the US would have stepped in by now.

Israel will not allow their far-right leaders to be tried for the war crimes they have committed.

The US has already stepped in to the maximum extent that the US is ever likely to be able to; the idea that the US would do much more is fanciful.

It is worth pointing out that the vast majority of Israelis killed raped or taken hostage on 7 October were also civilians.

Roughly how many civilians from each side do you think have been killed, are missing, or injured?

 

[SynthD]

No it didn't. The conflict escalated then, because of the actions of Hamas and its members. Israel didn't do anything new in the lead-up to provoke that response from Hamas.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/with-2022-deadliest-year-in-israel-palestine-conflict-reversing-violent-trends-must-be-international-priority-middle-east-coordinator-tells-security-council-press-release-sc-15179/

With 2022 Deadliest Year in Israel-Palestine Conflict, Reversing Violent Trends Must Be International Priority, Middle East Coordinator Tells Security Council – Press Release (SC/15179)​

That's deadliest for Palestinians. In a quick scan, I don't see any Israeli deaths.

 

[farleigh]

Are Hamas in Palestine not similar to Isis in Iraq and Syria?

Do the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their actions or are they being coerced similarly to people under the Isis regime a few years ago?

 

[Sorcerer]

Do the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their actions or are they being coerced similarly to people under the Isis regime a few years ago?

It's very difficult to say without proper statistics, but I suspect that there a good few Palestinians who might not support Hamas but may accept them as a necessary evil in their fight against an oppressor, and others might be so jaded by the situation that they don't see things improving no matter who rules over them and so are apathetic. I imagine there are even those coerced into it like you suggested. It's easy to say from the safety of my office chair in front of a two-monitor gaming PC that everyone would be better off without Hamas, but on the ground itself it just isn't that simple unfortunately.

 

[farleigh]

It's very difficult to say without proper statistics, but I suspect that there a good few Palestinians who might not support Hamas but may accept them as a necessary evil in their fight against an oppressor, and others might be so jaded by the situation that they don't see things improving no matter who rules over them and so are apathetic. I imagine there are even those coerced into it like you suggested. It's easy to say from the safety of my office chair in front of a two-monitor gaming PC that everyone would be better off without Hamas, but on the ground itself it just isn't that simple unfortunately.

Thank you for your reply.

I would agree with evil but am not sure they are necessary if we are ever to see people able to live peacefully in that part of the world.

We are very lucky to have the governments we do

Even if it does not feel like it at times.

 

[AlterEgo]

If believing that Israel has a right to defend itself and protect its people makes me far-right, then I guess I'm far right. Though that term has been overused so much it's practically meaningless. Do I think the Netanyahu government has overstepped the mark? Yes... but that does not mean that they don't have a right to defend themselves.

So? The white colonists got beat in Rhodesia and now there's no Rhodesia - it's all Zimbabwe. Rhodesia didn't have a right to exist, Israel doesn't, the United Kingdom doesn't. The idea that nations have a right to exist in their current form is just a platitude. Why not apply that to all the indigenous American nations? A lot of Zionists would not tolerate an "Israel" where Arab Muslims were granted the same rights as Jews. What form of Israel exactly are we saying has a right to exist and defend itself? A special colonial homeland for Jewish people which relied on ethnic cleansing and a herronvolk mentality to exist in the first place?

However, factually the Knesset has about 10% members who are of Arab extraction, and human rights in Israel are far more well protected than in any of the neighbouring countries where being female or non-heterosexual generally means limited human rights.

But the fact Hamas are - to put it mildly - problematic, doesn't render ordinary Palestinian lives irrelevant. Hundreds of innocents are being killed or maimed every day.

I do not believe Israel is setting out to bomb civilians.

Likely not, but they also don't really care very much if they do or don't. Israel is a racist and Islamophobic state just as Hamas is a hateful and anti-semitic one.

 

[JamesT]

So? The white colonists got beat in Rhodesia and now there's no Rhodesia - it's all Zimbabwe. Rhodesia didn't have a right to exist, Israel doesn't, the United Kingdom doesn't. The idea that nations have a right to exist in their current form is just a platitude. Why not apply that to all the indigenous American nations? A lot of Zionists would not tolerate an "Israel" where Arab Muslims were granted the same rights as Jews. What form of Israel exactly are we saying has a right to exist and defend itself? A special colonial homeland for Jewish people which relied on ethnic cleansing and a herronvolk mentality to exist in the first place?

Perhaps not with its current borders, but surely U.N. Resolution 181 gives Israel the right to exist?

 

[farleigh]

Likely not, but they also don't really care very much if they do or don't. Israel is a racist and Islamophobic state just as Hamas is a hateful and anti-semitic one.

I don't think it is entirely fair to say Israel is a racist and Islamophobic state.

It is similar to saying that Palestine is an antisemitic state which would be inaccurate. This of course is only my own opinion and I respect your right to your opinions on Israel.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't think it is entirely fair to say Israel is a racist and Islamophobic state.

Do you think pre-1994 South Africa was a racist state? It operated on not dissimilar grounds.

Perhaps not with its current borders, but surely U.N. Resolution 181 gives Israel the right to exist?

In what way does it grant that right? Are you saying if it was revoked somehow, Israel would lose a right to exist?

 

[yorkie]

I don't think it is entirely fair to say Israel is a racist and Islamophobic state.

It's absolutely true, though.

It is similar to saying that Palestine is an antisemitic state which would be inaccurate.

Is Palestine even a state? Does Israel allow it to be a state?

This of course is only my own opinion and I respect your right to your opinions on Israel.

You are welcome to your opinions, but don't be surprised if you are challenged, as your logic is flawed.

 

[farleigh]

Do you think pre-1994 South Africa was a racist state? It operated on not dissimilar grounds.

Yes I do S.A. iwas a racist state pre1994.

I do not think Israel is a racist state in a similar way.

I do not think it operates on similar grounds . Can you give examples to explain the point you are attempting to make?

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It's absolutely true, though.

Is Palestine even a state? Does Israel allow it to be a state?

You are welcome to your opinions, but don't be surprised if you are challenged, as your logic is flawed.

True in your opinion.

It is not in Israel's remit to deny Palestine statehood so that makes no sense.

Your opinion is equally open to challenge - as long as you are willing to debate.

I maintain that it is unfair to call Israel a racist state.

 

[yorkie]

Yes I do S.A. iwas a racist state pre1994.

I do not think Israel is a racist state in a similar way.

Why not?

I do not think it operates on similar grounds

If anything, it's even worse.

. Can you give examples to explain the point you are attempting to make?

I think it is perfectly clear what @AlterEgo is saying; perhaps you can clarify why you think it is unfair?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2024 ==

True in your opinion.

This is all opinions, but I am struggling to understand the reasoning behind yours.

It is not in Israel's remit to deny Palestine statehood so that makes no sense.

Have you told the far-right leaders of Israel this?

Israeli parliament backs Netanyahu’s rejection of a Palestinian state

Lawmakers vote to support PM's rejection of any 'unilateral' recognition of a Palestinian state.

www.aljazeera.com

Israeli parliament backs Netanyahu’s rejection of a Palestinian state

Lawmakers vote to support PM’s rejection of any ‘unilateral’ recognition of a Palestinian state.

Your opinion is equally open to challenge - as long as you are willing to debate.

I maintain that it is unfair to call Israel a racist state.

Yes, so you have said. But why is it "unfair"?

If it's not racism, what is it?