2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[61653 HTAFC]

Not much interest in China’s ongoing abuse of the Uyghur population in its North Western territories either.

Whilst such things, being a domestic matter, are not within the ICJ's remit... there is a notable silence from the global Islamic community about that particular issue. Also a distinct lack of protests on university campuses and in English cities... and certainly no groups of young men with collection buckets at major road intersections aggressively demanding donations for the Uyghurs either. I wonder why...

This sounds like whataboutery to me. Just because the ICJ haven't kept track of all the abuses going on in the world doesn't mean they aren't justified to highlight the abuses perpetrated by the Israeli government against citizens of Gaza.

Pointing out inconsistencies and double standards is not "whataboutery". Whilst the ICJ shouldn't be involved as it isn't in their remit to tackle domestic issues, the silence from the likes of George Galloway (I thought he was all about promoting world peace) is deafening.

Would any other country which was having shells and rockets fired at it daily, and had suffered one of the worst terror attacks since 11/9/2001, be expected to simply take it laying down? Personally I doubt it, and I'm wondering what it is about Israel specifically that makes people react in the way they do... Again, there were no mass demonstrations against China's persecution of minorities, nor of the brutality of the regimes in Syria and Iran.

Is it any wonder that Jewish people in the UK might begin to feel that it might be motivated by antisemitism?

 

[brad465]

Whilst such things, being a domestic matter, are not within the ICJ's remit... there is a notable silence from the global Islamic community about that particular issue. Also a distinct lack of protests on university campuses and in English cities... and certainly no groups of young men with collection buckets at major road intersections aggressively demanding donations for the Uyghurs either. I wonder why...

Pointing out inconsistencies and double standards is not "whataboutery". Whilst the ICJ shouldn't be involved as it isn't in their remit to tackle domestic issues, the silence from the likes of George Galloway (I thought he was all about promoting world peace) is deafening.

Would any other country which was having shells and rockets fired at it daily, and had suffered one of the worst terror attacks since 11/9/2001, be expected to simply take it laying down? Personally I doubt it, and I'm wondering what it is about Israel specifically that makes people react in the way they do... Again, there were no mass demonstrations against China's persecution of minorities, nor of the brutality of the regimes in Syria and Iran.

Is it any wonder that Jewish people in the UK might begin to feel that it might be motivated by antisemitism?

The [first] cold war might be long gone, but it has definitely left a legacy mindset that has even impacted folk who were born after it ended: the US is still the bastion of capitalism, so they side with anyone who opposes the US simply because they hate capitalism, opposition to Israel arises from the very obvious special relationship between the two countries. Their enemies are primarily be Russia, China and Iran, so anything bad they do is either conveniently ignored or even endorsed; the reverse also exists.

Now I don't agree with a lot of what the US and Israel do, but I would never blindly side with their enemies because they are their enemies. The enemies in this case happen to be considerably worse. I would prefer to push for reforms independently from within.

 

[nw1]

Is it any wonder that Jewish people in the UK might begin to feel that it might be motivated by antisemitism?

Of course it's not motivated by antisemitism, and it's absurd to think it is. It's motivated by disgust at the Israeli government's brutal and monstrous bombing campaign. It's infuriating to see the Israeli government to use the term "antisemitism" to shut down criticism of their actions. It just confirms their authoritarian nature and their utter lack of respect for people who disagree with them.

If people express disgust at the authoritarian regime of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, are said people Islamophobes and/or prejudiced towards all Turks?

Of course not.

False claims of antisemitism merely shut down debate and prevent free speech and freedom of expression.

Is Macron antisemitic for expressing outrage at the latest bombing?


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

Pointing out inconsistencies and double standards is not "whataboutery". Whilst the ICJ shouldn't be involved as it isn't in their remit to tackle domestic issues, the silence from the likes of George Galloway (I thought he was all about promoting world peace) is deafening.

I have little time for George Galloway either. But we're talking about the ICJ and the UN, not Galloway.

 

[farleigh]

Of course it's not motivated by antisemitism, and it's absurd to think it is. It's motivated by disgust at the Israeli government's brutal and monstrous bombing campaign. It's infuriating to see the Israeli government to use the term "antisemitism" to shut down criticism of their actions. It just confirms their authoritarian nature and their utter lack of respect for people who disagree with them.

If people express disgust at the authoritarian regime of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, are said people Islamophobes and/or prejudiced towards all Turks?

Of course not.

False claims of antisemitism merely shut down debate and prevent free speech and freedom of expression.

Is Macron antisemitic for expressing outrage at the latest bombing?


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==


I have little time for George Galloway either. But we're talking about the ICJ and the UN, not Galloway.

The post asked if jewish people in the UK might begin to feel that it might be motivated by antisemitism.

I think that it would be quite reasonable to wonder if some people protesting against Israel's actions are motivated by antisemitism.

I also don't think it shuts down debate to ask this question, rather opens a debate.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On Saturday I was in Leeds city centre, and there was a protest march down The Headrow. Whilst most banners and placards were fine, there were one or two that in my opinion crossed the line: a caricature of Netanyahu with an exaggerated nose and grabby hands, for example.

On both the left and the right, you don't have to dig too deep to find some virulent sentiment towards the Jewish people.

 

[Belperpete]

Would any other country which was having shells and rockets fired at it daily, and had suffered one of the worst terror attacks since 11/9/2001, be expected to simply take it laying down? Personally I doubt it, and I'm wondering what it is about Israel specifically that makes people react in the way they do... Again, there were no mass demonstrations against China's persecution of minorities, nor of the brutality of the regimes in Syria and Iran.

Is it any wonder that Jewish people in the UK might begin to feel that it might be motivated by antisemitism?

If at the height of the Northern Ireland troubles, with a terrorist organisation deeply embedded in the civilian population, when rockets were being fired on Downing Street, innocent people were being kidnapped and murdered, mass bombing outrages etc - if the UK government had behaved in the same way as the Israeli government currently is, and flattened large swathes of Northern Ireland and killed thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians in the process of trying to eliminate the IRA, what do you think the reaction would have been? I don't think even the British would have stood for it. The USA certainly wouldn't have.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

The post asked if jewish people in the UK might begin to feel that it might be motivated by antisemitism.
I think that it would be quite reasonable to wonder if some people protesting against Israel's actions are motivated by antisemitism.
I also don't think it shuts down debate to ask this question, rather opens a debate.

It is when it is implied that those "some people" are the majority of those protesting, rather than a very very small minority, that it is used to shut down the debate.

No doubt some people who vote Tory are fascists, and some people who vote Labour are communists, but nobody keeps feeling the need to point it out every time they are mentioned, as they are not representative of the two parties. Yet every time the anti Israeli protesters are mentioned, someone seems to feel it necessary to mention that some of them might be antisemites.

 

[farleigh]

No doubt some people who vote Tory are fascists, and some people who vote Labour are communists, but nobody keeps feeling the need to point it out every time they are mentioned, as they are not representative of the two parties. Yet every time the anti Israeli protesters are mentioned, someone seems to feel it necessary to mention that some of them might be antisemites.

But that seems likely to be the truth.

I don't understand why there should be a problem mentioning that Jewish people might be suspicious of groups that contain antisemitic people. In my opinion they have every right to be suspicious of such groups.

 

[Belperpete]

But that seems likely to be the truth.

I don't understand why there should be a problem mentioning that Jewish people might be suspicious of groups that contain antisemitic people. In my opinion they have every right to be suspicious of such groups.

Do you feel the same need every time the Labour or Tory parties are mentioned to say that some of them might be antisemites?

 

[farleigh]

Do you feel the same need every time the Labour or Tory parties are mentioned to say that some of them might be antisemites?

It is not common now but when the Labour Party had a problem with antisemitism (not so long ago) I think the media mentioned it regularly.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If at the height of the Northern Ireland troubles, with a terrorist organisation deeply embedded in the civilian population, when rockets were being fired on Downing Street, innocent people were being kidnapped and murdered, mass bombing outrages etc - if the UK government had behaved in the same way as the Israeli government currently is, and flattened large swathes of Northern Ireland and killed thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians in the process of trying to eliminate the IRA, what do you think the reaction would have been? I don't think even the British would have stood for it. The USA certainly wouldn't have.

If the Provisional IRA had a mission statement calling for the eradication of all British people from the island of Ireland, I would imagine that the UK would have met them with a more robust response... and they'd be entirely justified in doing so. Hamas's objective is the destruction of the state of Israel and the banishing or extermination of the Jewish people. You're not comparing apples with apples here.

 

[nw1]

If the Provisional IRA had a mission statement calling for the eradication of all British people from the island of Ireland, I would imagine that the UK would have met them with a more robust response... and they'd be entirely justified in doing so. Hamas's objective is the destruction of the state of Israel and the banishing or extermination of the Jewish people. You're not comparing apples with apples here.

Would the UK government have tried to bomb Catholic areas of Northern Ireland to oblivion though, even if the IRA did have such a mission statement?

I suspect not. For one thing, it would have bred more, and worse, terrorism against UK citizens as an act of revenge - something which seems to be entirely lost on Netanyahu and the Israeli government in general. Wipe out Hamas and you're just going to get more, and worse, terrorism.

These are the acts of an extreme right-wing Israeli government, and I strongly suspect are not supported by a majority of Jewish people.

 

[Belperpete]

If the Provisional IRA had a mission statement calling for the eradication of all British people from the island of Ireland, I would imagine that the UK would have met them with a more robust response... and they'd be entirely justified in doing so. Hamas's objective is the destruction of the state of Israel and the banishing or extermination of the Jewish people. You're not comparing apples with apples here.

Are you seriously saying that we tolerated the IRA attrocities, and didn't take a robust response, simply because the IRA weren't intent on killing all the protestants?

Just like Hamas, the IRA had an objective that was never going to be acceptable to the majority of the population. And like Hamas the IRA were a terrorist organisation carrying out significant attrocities, deeply embedded in and shielded by the civilian population. Agreed that there were differences, there always will be with comparisons. But the similarities are sufficient to make the comparison valid.

In fact, the UK government did try a more robust response, when they sent in the Black and Tans. It proved an unmitigated disaster, as it just increased support for the IRA. Something similar is already happening in response to the Israeli actions.

 

[baza585]

Would the UK government have tried to bomb Catholic areas of Northern Ireland to oblivion though, even if the IRA did have such a mission statement?

I suspect not. For one thing, it would have bred more, and worse, terrorism against UK citizens as an act of revenge - something which seems to be entirely lost on Netanyahu and the Israeli government in general. Wipe out Hamas and you're just going to get more, and worse, terrorism.

These are the acts of an extreme right-wing Israeli government, and I strongly suspect are not supported by a majority of Jewish people.

I fail to see how wiping out Hamas will create more terrorists. The schools in Gaza are controlled by Hamas; I have no doubt that anti-Israeli rhetoric features already heavily in the curriculum. I therefore can't see how the Israeli action creates more terrorists.

You are of course entitled to your view of the Israeli government, and I have no time for their current actions.

Equally I am entitled to my view of the murderous thugs that are Hamas and their deeply unpleasant Iranian controllers.

No lasting solution of any description is possible in the region while Hamas exists.

 

[nw1]

I fail to see how wiping out Hamas will create more terrorists. The schools in Gaza are controlled by Hamas; I have no doubt that anti-Israeli rhetoric features already heavily in the curriculum. I therefore can't see how the Israeli action creates more terrorists.

Because there will be a lot of anger towards the killing of innocent civilians, not just from within Palestine but throughout the wider Middle East region.

So you're just going to get increased radicalisation and new terrorist groups appearing, who will just carry on in the same way or worse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

Equally I am entitled to my view of the murderous thugs that are Hamas and their deeply unpleasant Iranian controllers.

Dislike of the Israeli government and dislike of Hamas are not mutually exclusive. I'd agree that Hamas are "murderous thugs", in fact: but that does not absolve the Israeli government of guilt.

 

[baza585]

Because there will be a lot of anger towards the killing of innocent civilians, not just from within Palestine but throughout the wider Middle East region.

So you're just going to get increased radicalisation and new terrorist groups appearing, who will just carry on in the same way or worse.

You mean like the anger there was in Gaza when Hamas killed or took hostage 1400 innocent civilians on 7th October 2023?

There wasn't any; some idiots were celebrating in the streets of Gaza and elsewhere, I seem to recall.

The hatred for Israel existed then, before Israel fired a single shot in retaliation for the 7 October atrocity.

 

[nw1]

You mean like the anger there was in Gaza when Hamas killed or took hostage 1400 innocent civilians on 7th October 2023?

There wasn't any; some idiots were celebrating in the streets of Gaza and elsewhere, I seem to recall.

How do you know? Perhaps they were unaware? Or perhaps they were preoccupied by their own struggles?

The hatred for Israel existed then, before Israel fired a single shot in retaliation for the 7 October atrocity.

So are you denying, in general, that mistreatment, resentment and anger cannot breed radicalisation and thus terrorism?

 

[baza585]

So are you denying, in general, that mistreatment, resentment and anger cannot breed radicalisation and thus terrorism?

That is not what I said. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I was merely stating, and giving proof, that in this particular situation, the hatred for Israel in Gaza is inbred and pre dates the current Israeli action.

I abhor Hamas and the current Israeli action equally and I think my posts reflect that. Your posts appear to focus purely on the Israeli action and do not reflect the part Hamas and it's supporters have played in the current dire situation.

 

[GusB]

Whether or not Hamas is wiped out, you have a generation of children who, assuming they actually survive this nightmare, are going to grow up questioning why they have no parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles. They'll have seen the destruction of their homes, schools and hospitals and when they're old enough to properly understand, they'll be angry. Hamas may be gone, but the resentment will still be there.

There wasn't any; some idiots were celebrating in the streets of Gaza and elsewhere, I seem to recall.

I seem to recall seeing videos of IDF thugs celebrating as death and destruction rained down on Gaza.

The hatred for Israel existed then, before Israel fired a single shot in retaliation for the 7 October atrocity.

That hatred goes both ways. It may be that Hamas wants Israel wiped off the map, but that could equally be said for the clowns who are in power in the Israeli government. They don't want a peaceful settlement either and they won't be satisfied until every single Palestinian is removed.

It's all well and good banging on about how Hamas' stated objective is to destroy Israel, but you cannot tar every Palestinian with the same brush. I'd suggest that for most ordinary Palestinians their main objective right now is survival.

 

[baza585]

I seem to recall seeing videos of IDF thugs celebrating as death and destruction rained down on Gaza.

I don't recall that. Could you provide a link?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2024 ==

That hatred goes both ways. It may be that Hamas wants Israel wiped off the map, but that could equally be said for the clowns who are in power in the Israeli government. They don't want a peaceful settlement either and they won't be satisfied until every single Palestinian is removed.

The stated position of the Israeli government is the eradication of Hamas, not the removal of every Palestinian. I'm not sure I believe that either, but I do believe that there cannot be a lasting solution with Hamas still active in the region.

Frankly the Iranian government has an awful lot to answer for, given they have armed and financed Hamas for many years.

 

[GusB]

I don't recall that. Could you provide a link?

All I can remember was that it was on a YouTube channel - I don't recall which.

Edit - A Google search for "idf soldiers celebrating destroying gaza" brings up the following results page:

idf soldiers celebrating destroying gaza - Google Search

I ignored the first result - it may be accurate but I don't know how genuine the source is. The second result was this:

Israeli soldiers share 'abusive' videos mocking destruction of Gaza online

www.france24.com

Since the start of the war in Gaza over six months ago, Israeli soldiers have filmed and posted hundreds of videos of destruction in Gaza online. In the videos, Palestinians are mocked, destruction is a celebration and launching artillery is an opportunity to have a laugh. The Israel Defence Forces said they have called their soldiers to order and have sanctioned some of them without saying how many.

As far as I'm aware, France 24 is a fairly reputable news source.

So we have both sides "celebrating". To be clear, I don't condone either, but I'd expect a professional army to behave in a professional manner and not go looting and ransacking houses.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Whether or not Hamas is wiped out, you have a generation of children who, assuming they actually survive this nightmare, are going to grow up questioning why they have no parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles. They'll have seen the destruction of their homes, schools and hospitals and when they're old enough to properly understand, they'll be angry. Hamas may be gone, but the resentment will still be there.

If those kids are left with no relatives at all, then they've been extremely unlucky. The population of Gaza has increased massively in the last twenty years, so if Israel is trying to commit a genocide (I appreciate you didn't use that word, but many of the activists are very quick to throw that word into the mix) they're clearly not very good at it.

I don’t take any pleasure in seeing civilians being killed, but as long as Hamas uses the population of Gaza as human shields, I don't see how at least some collateral can be avoided... short of Israel rolling over and allowing Hamas to indiscriminately murder their citizens.

It's pretty obvious to me that Hamas is an organisation with no redeeming features whatsoever, and whilst the ideal solution would be to either kill or arrest the leadership with no collateral damage, I can't see that happening. I'm not enough of a military strategist to know if there's a better way for Israel to achieve its objective (the destruction of Hamas) than what they're currently doing, but a more peaceful solution requires Hamas to unilaterally lay down their arms. This is highly unlikely unfortunately, as I believe a spokesperson for Hamas is on record saying something along the lines of "We love death more than you love life". Those are not the words of an organisation that deserves an ounce of sympathy.

 

[Yew]

You mean like the anger there was in Gaza when Hamas killed or took hostage 1400 innocent civilians on 7th October 2023?

There wasn't any; some idiots were celebrating in the streets of Gaza and elsewhere, I seem to recall.

The hatred for Israel existed then, before Israel fired a single shot in retaliation for the 7 October atrocity.

I would suggest that the history of the Middle East did not start on the 7th October.

 

[SynthD]

As a point of order, the world was a more peaceful place when Trump was in the White House.

He was making the various situations worse by agreeing with the West’s enemies, rather than arguing for law and order, democracy. In the case of the Middle East, he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem.

To call criticism of, and protests against, Israel antisemitic means labelling a lot of anti genocide and non-Zionist Jewish people as anti Jewish. Some Israeli government ministers are ok with this, some government policies appear to treat anti Zionist Israelis as criminals.

 

[Belperpete]

I would suggest that the history of the Middle East did not start on the 7th October.

Exactly. Palestinian hatred of the Israelis is due to the way they have been treated by them ever since Israel annexed their land. Israel has been subject to more UN resolutions than any other country, even with its US support.

 

[AlterEgo]

The post asked if jewish people in the UK might begin to feel that it might be motivated by antisemitism.

I think that it would be quite reasonable to wonder if some people protesting against Israel's actions are motivated by antisemitism.

I also don't think it shuts down debate to ask this question, rather opens a debate.

I don't see that it makes a big difference. Some people who opposed the IRA's campaign of violence were straightforwardly anti-Irish, but it didn't make the broader movement against such violence problematic.

 

[nw1]

That is not what I said. Please don't put words in my mouth.

When I made what I thought was a valid point about the bombing of Gaza being likely to breed radicalisation and further - possibly worse - terrorism against Israeli civilians, you seemed to be moving onto points which I considered to be off at a tangent rather than engaging with this particular point.

I abhor Hamas and the current Israeli action equally and I think my posts reflect that. Your posts appear to focus purely on the Israeli action and do not reflect the part Hamas and it's supporters have played in the current dire situation.

This is for two reasons. Partly because everyone - well everyone with mainstream political views, at least - knows that Hamas is bad. By contrast many people in the West, particularly the US, appear to be overly tolerant of the actions of the Israeli government. That's the real hypocrisy that's going on here. The US condemn Hamas - fine. But they do not condemn the Israeli government nearly enough, and indeed often appear to rush to their defence (the ICC arrest warrant situation for example). So it doesn't hurt, in my view, to highlight the bombing when some in the West don't seem to be taking it as seriously as they ought to.

Secondly: the problem now - right now, as in the first 6 months of 2024 - is the bombing of Gaza. Therefore, I don't think it hurts at this moment in time to primarily focus on the wrongdoings of the Israeli government, because that is what's going on right now.

 

[yorkie]

The stated position of the Israeli government is the eradication of Hamas, not the removal of every Palestinian. I'm not sure I believe that either, but I do believe that there cannot be a lasting solution with Hamas still active in the region

You think Hamas can be "eradicated"? How long do you think that might take? And until then, do you think it's acceptable to inflict an incredible level of suffering on Palestinians?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2024 ==

I was merely stating, and giving proof, that in this particular situation, the hatred for Israel in Gaza is inbred and pre dates the current Israeli action.

Is the same not true, the other way?

I abhor Hamas and the current Israeli action equally and I think my posts reflect that. Your posts appear to focus purely on the Israeli action and do not reflect the part Hamas and it's supporters have played in the current dire situation.

I strongly disagree with your interpretation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2024 ==

I fail to see how wiping out Hamas will create more terrorists.

Notwithstanding what you appear to be proposing seems unlikely to ever be achieved, what you are really saying is that you fail to see how bombing, mistreating, displacing, and malnourishing Palestinians is going to cause more resentment?

The schools in Gaza are controlled by Hamas; I have no doubt that anti-Israeli rhetoric features already heavily in the curriculum. I therefore can't see how the Israeli action creates more terrorists.

You are of course entitled to your view of the Israeli government, and I have no time for their current actions.

Equally I am entitled to my view of the murderous thugs that are Hamas and their deeply unpleasant Iranian controllers.

You are entitled to your views, but they have been - quite rightly - widely challenged; you've not presented a convincing argument and I see no evidence for any of the claims you have made, so I hope you'll forgive me (and others) for not being convinced.

If anything, reading your posts demonstrates how unjust the whole situation is and makes me more determined that the state of Israel be held to account for its actions.

No lasting solution of any description is possible in the region while Hamas exists.

Do you think a lasting solution is possible while Palestinians are treated in the manner they are being?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I would suggest that the history of the Middle East did not start on the 7th October.

No it didn't. The conflict escalated then, because of the actions of Hamas and its members. Israel didn't do anything new in the lead-up to provoke that response from Hamas.

 

[yorkie]

No it didn't. The conflict escalated then, because of the actions of Hamas and its members. Israel didn't do anything new in the lead-up to provoke that response from Hamas.

Anything "new", eh? Is oppressing a population acceptable because it's not "new"?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2024 ==

If those kids are left with no relatives at all, then they've been extremely unlucky...

Does that make it acceptable?

Do you at least agree that a disproportionate number of Palestinian kids are "extremely unlikely" compared to Israeli kids?

Do you find this imbalance acceptable, and if so, why?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Anything "new", eh? Is oppressing a population acceptable because it's not "new"?

My point was the escalation. It was not Israel that escalated the conflict.