Fincra5
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Other than the tip up seats where the Wheelchair and Bike spaces are, there's no Longitudinal seating on a Class 700... And that does fine for the busy Core section.
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Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement
- Thread starter Robski
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Other than the tip up seats where the Wheelchair and Bike spaces are, there's no Longitudinal seating on a Class 700... And that does fine for the busy Core section.
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Throughout TFL's Metroisation strategic case document, it implies that longitudinal seats in new stock would be the case if further networks are taken over, including highlighting and comparing against examples of "metro-style trains" that already makes use of such seats.
Page 27:
3.4 National Rail rolling stock in south London is not tailored to provide an urban metro service
3.4.2 Table 5 illustrates this by comparing the characteristics and performance of current rolling-stock (e.g. Class 377 trains used on Southern services) against metro-style trains (e.g. S Stock trains). This shows that metro-style trains offer significant benefits over current rolling stock, as the carriages have a much higher overall capacity, and more and wider doors.
778
Member
Hopefully the metro replacement fleet will be ordered before TFL take over so it will be too late for them to introduce longitudinal seating.
TfL (off record) now admit they got a lot wrong in their thinking that went into the metroisation plan and hadn't actually done very detailed level assessment on understanding of passenger flows and lengths of journey times.
The 701s have shown a good all round compromise in terms of seating, boarding speed and standing capacity.
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TfL aren't planning to take over.
a) It would take lots of investment (and they have no funding for it)
b) the cost of splitting SE metro and long distance increases overall costs for both - which is a bit of a non starter given the need for efficient expenditure.
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Mikey C
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The 377s in the comparison (even the 377/6s) aren't metro trains anyway, but outer suburban ones that happen to be all Southern has left to operate its "metro" routes after the 455s left without replacement. A more relevant comparison would be 378 vs 376, seeing that the Overground 378s were developed from the Southeastern 376s. The 701s, 700s, 717s etc are all modern high capacity metro trains without sideways seating.
Best news I've heard for ages.
And yes, despite the ongoing issues of getting the 701s on the track, they are a perfect example of having space and preferable seating.
Keep longitudinal seating to the tube, it's has no place on the national rail network.
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Absolutely!
brad465
Veteran Member
Have Class 466s been having any particular refurb work done to them recently? I've noticed their black vinyl/paintjob around the windows is looking very clean in comparison to the 465s of all types.
Rick1984
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Could the class 458 be cascaded once the class 701are finally in service?
It would be very unlikely for them to go anywhere other than the scrapyard should SWR withdraw them. And even if it wasn't, another oddball fleet for Southeastern would not be a good idea.
I've noticed that boarding SE metro at cannon street it seems like more people seem to "fit" on to the carriages closest to buffers on the networkers. Whereas the 376 seems to have people walking much further down the platform. I guess that is because of there being fewer seats and people knowing they can get one further down.
Going the opposite direction, when I join a 707 london-bound in the morning all the seats are taken in the front 2 or 3 carriages and it's a relative cram to get on the train. But once doors close people are able to easily walk down until there's more space because of walk-through carriages.
That's not to comment the merits of layout vs another (except to say walk through carriages are better). More interesting obersavtion on differences in passenger behaviour. Passengers going london-bound in the morning won't know which type of train it will be until it turns up, so even if they realised the different loading on 2+2 vs 2+3 they cannot adjust their position on the platform. Starting from cannon street, however, with the train waiting people can easily loon through the window and board the more desirable carriage.
Going the opposite direction, when I join a 707 london-bound in the morning all the seats are taken in the front 2 or 3 carriages and it's a relative cram to get on the train. But once doors close people are able to easily walk down until there's more space because of walk-through carriages.
That's not to comment the merits of layout vs another (except to say walk through carriages are better). More interesting obersavtion on differences in passenger behaviour. Passengers going london-bound in the morning won't know which type of train it will be until it turns up, so even if they realised the different loading on 2+2 vs 2+3 they cannot adjust their position on the platform. Starting from cannon street, however, with the train waiting people can easily loon through the window and board the more desirable carriage.
Desiro City is still listed as a UK product by Siemens Mobility as is the Desiro Verve, however the Verve is a 23m car product so no use to SE.
LNWR and GA both moved from 20m coach lengths to longer designs so it isn't impossible, although I doubt SE would benefit from longer coaches.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
fixed formation 10cars could be accommodated though and its not as if they don't 3x465's running around all day with fresh air now.
SE has some tighter turns and a more restrictive loading gauge which limits it to 20m vehicles.
Very few 3*465s, they’re peak time only and only on certain metro routes. They can’t run on the Orpington - Victoria services, can’t stop at Woolwich Dockyard, can’t use various platforms at Charing Cross etc.
Anecdotally the metro loadings out of London Bridge in the PM peak often resemble 2019 now.
brad465
Veteran Member
The two routes that primarily get them are Dartford-Charing X via Bexleyheath and Sevenoaks-Charing X via Lewisham. The other limiting factor in forming 12-car services is the lack of overall rolling stock to make it possible. You might have seen more in an alternate reality where covid never happened, more stabling space was provided and 707s came over in addition to the existing fleet as opposed to replacing Networkers on a 1 in 1 out carriage approach.
Funny you say that the 1450 from Sevenoaks to Charing Cross is 12 coaches and largely avoids the peak hours on its outbound services from Charing Cross
It would require a huge amount of civils work to accommodate 23m cars on SE routes, the tender documents say that vehicle numbers are based on 23m rolling stock.
meld3
Member
I imagine 10x 23m coaches is much cheaper over lifetime than 12x 20m coaches, in terms of wheelsets, brakes, shoes etc.
Mikey C
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Plus 23m vehicles tend to be narrower, so it's not all good news (as the 720s show)
brad465
Veteran Member
I've heard from elsewhere that 465237 (or one of the /2s at Ely) is leaving Ely Papworth by road, any confirmation on this and its intended destination?
brad465
Veteran Member
Just seen it. If they're going abroad that will be a twist and a half.
OneTrackMinded
Member
Not many places with a similar third rail electrification
Class450/4DES
Member
As a 465 fan. I really am interested to hear any updates on where it is off too. I am guessing a heritage railway as what the last post said, there is not really any similar 3rd rail electrifications outside of the UK, unless its local hauled.
brad465
Veteran Member
This seems like an odd route to go down towards getting a unit to a heritage railway. Will have to see if they announce anything more publicly in the coming days. The only thing I'm confident of at the moment is this unit is not currently destined for scrap, because if it was it would go a scrapyard directly and ROMIC would not use the optimistic language they have used regarding this move.
Class450/4DES
Member
Alright. I am not sure it can do things in other countries other than being dragged around by a loco. They did this with the JR 203 series in the Philippines. So it is either that or its being put up somewhere statically. Either way, we just need to wait and see.
brad465
Veteran Member
This is the post specifically:
2.8K views · 33 reactions | It’s a busy week for Romic, we are unloading our class 465s for a new project we have coming up! Where do you think these will end up? #class465 #trains #locomotive #trainspotting #britishrailways #britishrail #class43 #HS
It’s a busy week for Romic, we are unloading our class 465s for a new project we have coming up! Where do you think these will end up? #class465 #trains #locomotive #trainspotting #britishrailways...
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