Welsh Marches Line and 197s 2 x car

[stssts1985]

A couple of observations

Last week I travelled from Crewe to Shrewesbury onboard a packed 5-carridge loco hauled and a great experience it was.

My observation was that most of the tfw manchester to south wales are 2 or 3 car 197's which doesnt seem suitable for such a popular route? I had thought the idea of the 197 with gangways was that the popular manchester route could run as 3 + 2 with a first in the 3 and a catering area in the 2. My opinion is that the 197 is a good unit for long journeys if sufficient carridges

How does the route cope with 2 car? and why so short?
A check of rtt shows the pre 9am arrival into manchester as 2-car which is surely not sufficicent given how busy manchester commutes are.

the loco hauled sets are a dream, although even the one I boarded was packed with standing passengers,

 

[RetroCrowe]

I sometimes travel between Ludlow and Crewe on the 7:02 Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly, which is often formed of a two-car 197. Every single time, it's horribly overcrowded, sometimes dangerously so. By the time it gets to Shrewsbury or Whitchurch, passengers with big suitcases or pushchairs sometimes get turned away because there physically isn't any space on board and last time I used it, an elderly lady tripped and hurt herself trying to get through the crowd to alight at Crewe, people couldn't move out of the way without crushing into other passengers further along the train.

The situation is improving, but TfW still don't have enough 197s to run five coaches on every service.

 

[Cambrian359]

I sometimes travel between Ludlow and Crewe on the 7:02 Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly, which is often formed of a two-car 197. Every single time, it's horribly overcrowded, sometimes dangerously so. By the time it gets to Shrewsbury or Whitchurch, passengers with big suitcases or pushchairs sometimes get turned away because there physically isn't any space on board and last time I used it, an elderly lady tripped and hurt herself trying to get through the crowd to alight at Crewe, people couldn't move out of the way without crushing into other passengers further along the train.

The situation is improving, but TfW still don't have enough 197s to run five coaches on every service.

They do have enough 197s now as it’s pretty much only the ERTMS Cambrian 197s left to come into service. problem is now 197s are being used on routes they were never intended for! covering routes such as bidston, Maesteg, Cheltenham,Ebbw vale etc covering for 230s,756s 231s & 398s that were supposed to be dedicated fleets for them routes/valley lines.

 

[stssts1985]

I sometimes travel between Ludlow and Crewe on the 7:02 Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly, which is often formed of a two-car 197. Every single time, it's horribly overcrowded, sometimes dangerously so. By the time it gets to Shrewsbury or Whitchurch, passengers with big suitcases or pushchairs sometimes get turned away because there physically isn't any space on board and last time I used it, an elderly lady tripped and hurt herself trying to get through the crowd to alight at Crewe, people couldn't move out of the way without crushing into other passengers further along the train.

The situation is improving, but TfW still don't have enough 197s to run five coaches on every service.

It's thing like this that turn people away from Rail, such a shame. Especially in areas with high car ownership. I cant understand why they wouldnt have specified the order more appropriately. Are they all in service yet - or did the 175's have to leave a bit too soon for comfort?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2024 ==

They do have enough 197s now as it’s pretty much only the ERTMS Cambrian 197s left to come into service. problem is now 197s are being used on routes they were never intended for! covering routes such as bidston, Maesteg, Cheltenham,Ebbw vale etc covering for 230s,756s 231s & 398s that were supposed to be dedicated fleets for them routes/valley lines.

this makes sense then and should allieviate the pressure on them hopefully. they are nice units, having been on one for the first time last week
i always thought the 230's were a nice idea but an odd choice, given their age (and they have a lot of doors lol) - maybe the 158s could pick up the slack, not "metro" suitable but hey ho northern /gwr do worse (even tfw have been known to pop a 153 from Milford Haven to Manchester lol)

 

[Caaardiff]

There's a mixture of diagrammed services either 2, 3 or 4 carriages at the moment. There's not many 2 car diagrams left, but there are sometimes substitutions of a 2 car instead of 3 car.
The issue is TFW have once again committed to something they can't deliver. Increases on Valley Lines services means the majority of the 150s are now doing Valleys work, with 197's covering more services in West Wales which were previously 15x fleet as well as Maesteg-Cheltenham and Ebbw Vale which should be 231 routes. The only route left to 15x fleet in Pembroke Dock, due to change to 197's next week, the odd Ebbw Vale diagram and obviously the HOWL which will remain 153s.
The other issue is 231's still remain doing Valleys work because of the delays to 756's and 398's. I can't see any 231's changing to Maesteg/Ebbw Vale routes until the 398s come in as I believe TFW want rid of the 150s.
There are still a few more 3 car 197's to be delivered as well so that should continue to see some slight improvements.

The overall plan remains at minimum 4-6 car to Manchester, which hopefully is only a few months away!

 

[Topological]

The problem is definitely at the southern end where 197s are running services in lieu of the other new classes.

Things improve for the 09:11 arrival at Manchester (05:38 ex Cardiff) as it will be 3-car now. The train an hour later is still not a Mk4 (despite being the long-term plan Mk4 Swansea to Manchester service). There are other 197s substituting for Mk4 as well. There are still booked 2-car 197s on the Manchester services, which should not be happening. There is a useful post detailing all of the allocations for the coming weeks on the 197-thread

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2024 ==

There's now 42 197 diagrams from tomorrow, 24 2 car and 18 3 car.
Some long standing 15x diagrams have now gone over to 197 including the 00:30 Cardiff to Hereford and 21:55 Cardiff to Crewe. There is however a reduction of 3 car diagrams to Manchester, albeit they're mostly the mid morning departures which then leave Manchester at the quietest times.
This does seem to end any booked work Monday to Thursday (as @craigybagel says the 21:55 is booked a pair of 153s on a Friday) at least of any 150/153 traction between Newport and Craven Arms.

Booked formations on the Marches are now (departure time from Cardiff)
04:35 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
05:12 Holyhead 3 car 197
05:39 Manchester 3 car 197
06:35 Manchester 3 car 197
07:17 Holyhead 2 car 197
07:50 Manchester 2 car 197
08:49 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
09:22 Holyhead 2 car 158
09: 54 Manchester 2 car 197
10:52 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
11:25 Holyhead 3 car 197
11:50 Manchester 2 car 197
12:49 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
13:22 Holyhead 3 car 197
13:50 Manchester 3 car 197
14:49 Manchester 3 car 197
15:23 Holyhead 3 car 197
15:49 Manchester 4 car 197
16:22 Chester 2 car 197
16:49 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
17:14 Holyhead 4/5 car Mk4
17:49 Manchester 4 car 197
18:22 Chester 3 car 197
18:55 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
19:41 Holyhead 2 car 158
20:05 Manchester 3 car 197
21:15 Chester 2 car 197
21:55 Mon-Thurs Crewe 3 car 197
21:55 Fri 2x153 to Shrewsbury, 2 different 153s to Crewe
00:30 Hereford 5 car 197

This post from @sd0733 is very helpful for what is allocated. The gaps in the 2-hourly Mk4 are clear, as are the double 197s which then split in Manchester to form 2-cars in the normal hour and another 2-car the hour later (e.g the 15:49 arrives at Manchester Piccadilly at 19:11 and forms the 19:30 and 20:30 back south)

 

[Krokodil]

So TfW are short of 197s because the 197s are currently covering for 230s and 231s, the latter of which are covering for 756s, which in turn will be covering for 398s.

It all sounds like the "gateau from the chateau" monologue from 'Allo 'Allo.

 

[Caaardiff]

What is odd is why there are still booked 2 car services to Manchester while there are booked 3 car 197s to Maesteg and Cheltenham.

 

[Jez]

I think the initial plan was 5 car 197s to run Manchester-Swansea services and also 197s to cover on the Maesteg/Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham services - both of these things were to happen from the Dec 23 timetable. As a result of 197s covering 231 routes Pembroke Dock and Swanline were both to be pairs of 153s until the June 2024 timetable. But as we know the plans were all delayed.

However it looks now like TFW want to go ahead with having Pembroke Dock and Swanline as 197s before the 231s can replace the 197s on the routes they are covering at the moment. This unfortunately means there arent enough 197s to do all 3 things - cover on Maesteg etc, operate on Swanline and Pembroke Dock and also have 5 cars on most Marches services.

I guess the reason is they need all 150's and 153s for the Valley Lines/Cardiff Local routes (plus 153s on HOWL and Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper of course). Otherwise they could just have kept pairs of 153s on Swanline and Pembroke Dock (I believe its due to switch over to 197s anytime soon)

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Bear in mind that a pair of 197s are also wasted daily covering for Class 230s on the Bidston line when Sprinters could be utilised.

 

[AndrewE]

After the rain we have been having today that description is probably quite accurate!

 

[Jez]

Bear in mind that a pair of 197s are also wasted daily covering for Class 230s on the Bidston line when Sprinters could be utilised.

I think they want to avoid sending Sprinters up North now aside from what is required for the HOWL and Crewe stopper. When they used to have Sprinters on the Conwy Valley and Chester-Crewe shuttle it was easier as 150s had to be swapped between the North and South.

 

[Topological]

It is a shame they could not borrow the Northern 150s again and use those in the north. It would be hard to get them to Newton Heath in the current fragmented railway though.

To have 2-car booked workings on the Marches, especially during the day, is pretty poor given what had been promised. At least they are now 197s and we do not get 150s on the Marches.

 

[Jez]

It is a shame they could not borrow the Northern 150s again and use those in the north. It would be hard to get them to Newton Heath in the current fragmented railway though.

To have 2-car booked workings on the Marches, especially during the day, is pretty poor given what had been promised. At least they are now 197s and we do not get 150s on the Marches.

Yes that is one good thing - no sign of any 150s on the Manchester services. it happened all too often this time last year.

A quick look at RTT shows today we 3 car 197s on the ones booked 2 cars (1115, 1315 and 1515 arrivals into Manchester) but also a lot short formed to 2 cars including the 1915 and 2115 arrivals that usually formed of 4 cars and split for the return journeys. A 2 car is also on the missing MK4 diagram today which appears to be starting from Cardiff not Swansea this week. It was 48 minutes late leaving Cardiff and even a 197 couldnt recover that and it was turned at Wilmslow.

 

[Topological]

Yes that is one good thing - no sign of any 150s on the Manchester services. it happened all too often this time last year.

A quick look at RTT shows today we 3 car 197s on the ones booked 2 cars (1115, 1315 and 1515 arrivals into Manchester) but also a lot short formed to 2 cars including the 1915 and 2115 arrivals that usually formed of 4 cars and split for the return journeys. A 2 car is also on the missing MK4 diagram today which appears to be starting from Cardiff not Swansea this week. It was 48 minutes late leaving Cardiff and even a 197 couldnt recover that and it was turned at Wilmslow.

150s happened all to often even a couple of months ago. I want to say last month, but time flies and it is probably March when the 150s last appeared on my journeys.

There have been pairs of 153s recently though, so again 197s are improvements.

Glad to know that TfW did locate some of the 3-car 197s for those services. Hopefully, the diagram computer will not lose them again.

If travelling on the Marches, the solution seems to be travel very early in the day when the capacity does not matter as much. At the other end of the day the risk is a 2-car will not have any working toilets.

 

[stssts1985]

What is odd is why there are still booked 2 car services to Manchester while there are booked 3 car 197s to Maesteg and Cheltenham.

My observation of Maesteg on weekday off peak services is they are extremely lightly loaded. Until recently a 3 car 170 c09:30 leaving cardiff i'd usually gave a carridge to myself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2024 ==

The problem is definitely at the southern end where 197s are running services in lieu of the other new classes.

Things improve for the 09:11 arrival at Manchester (05:38 ex Cardiff) as it will be 3-car now. The train an hour later is still not a Mk4 (despite being the long-term plan Mk4 Swansea to Manchester service). There are other 197s substituting for Mk4 as well. There are still booked 2-car 197s on the Manchester services, which should not be happening. There is a useful post detailing all of the allocations for the coming weeks on the 197-thread

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2024 ==



This post from @sd0733 is very helpful for what is allocated. The gaps in the 2-hourly Mk4 are clear, as are the double 197s which then split in Manchester to form 2-cars in the normal hour and another 2-car the hour later (e.g the 15:49 arrives at Manchester Piccadilly at 19:11 and forms the 19:30 and 20:30 back south)

that's interesting thanks. I hope then that the plan is still to offer a consistent 5 car 197 on the manchesters. I believe there are also plans to off a 2nd bi-hourly between Cardiff and Shrewesbury and subject to some level crossing risk stuff extending the Liverpool to chester further into North Wales.

On these very long journeys it's difficult for TOCs to balance load when they are catering for different time/cities along the way (transpennine the same)

 

[childwallblues]

Bear in mind that a pair of 197s are also wasted daily covering for Class 230s on the Bidston line when Sprinters could be utilised.

As far as I am aware sprinters do not venture this far north anymore.

 

[simonmpoulton]

2-Car units on this route has been the norm since ATW days - it wasn't adequate then either with regular overcrowding. Would've certainly made a lot more sense to keep the 175's on this route until there were enough 197's available to ensure a minimum 3-car service on this route.

 

[Krokodil]

2-Car units on this route has been the norm since ATW days - it wasn't adequate then either with regular overcrowding. Would've certainly made a lot more sense to keep the 175's on this route until there were enough 197's available to ensure a minimum 3-car service on this route.

It wouldn't have been possible to maintain both fleets at once.

 

[Topological]

Once the decision to use Chester for the 197s was made, it became too much to have the 175s in service as well. The result was a long period of 150s and 153s on the Marches.

We are now at a position where there are more carriages per day between Manchester and Cardiff, the remaining 2-car 197s just stand out. There is also a lot less opportunity to cross Cardiff than in the ATW days when Manchester had an hourly service to West Wales. If we extended to include the number of carriages between Manchester and Swansea.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

As far as I am aware sprinters do not venture this far north anymore.

Yes i am aware Sprinters aren’t seen ‘up North’ now but they could still use 150 or 153s if they wanted to. They are still seen in Shrewsbury on the HOW and Whitchurch stopper. Using 197s on the Borderlands is a waste.

 

[Caaardiff]

Yes i am aware Sprinters aren’t seen ‘up North’ now but they could still use 150 or 153s if they wanted to. They are still seen in Shrewsbury on the HOW and Whitchurch stopper. Using 197s on the Borderlands is a waste.

There aren't enough 150's in the fleet to move them to the Bidston line, plus it makes it difficult having a maintenance cycle. 150's are mostly confined to Valleys routes with a couple working Ebbw Vale services. They will become even more rare on mainline services soon.
153's are not suitable for the Bidston line as they don't keep time.

 

[stssts1985]

i believe that only 150s (and 14x's) can work north of pontyprydd on the TAM lines. I'm not sure why that is.
Perhaps the answer lies in hanging onto the 158s (for Cambrian) and let the 197 s cover some of the new planned services such as liverpool and the all day 2nd hourly through abergevenny.

 

[Caaardiff]

i believe that only 150s (and 14x's) can work north of pontyprydd on the TAM lines. I'm not sure why that is.
Perhaps the answer lies in hanging onto the 158s (for Cambrian) and let the 175s cover some of the new planned services such as liverpool and the all day 2nd hourly through abergevenny.

Clearance issues. I believe 231's are now cleared on some lines though.

I guess you mean 197's, not 175's?

There are no plans for TFW to introduce any more new services yet. Those are a long way off.

 

[stssts1985]

Clearance issues. I believe 231's are now cleared on some lines though.

I guess you mean 197's, not 175's?

There are no plans for TFW to introduce any more new services yet. Those are a long way off.

yes 197s that's the one!
I wonder how valley lines cope with 2 car 150s, espscially at peak times- before covid i went on quite a few 4 car 142/143s on the merthyr line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2024 ==

There aren't enough 150's in the fleet to move them to the Bidston line, plus it makes it difficult having a maintenance cycle. 150's are mostly confined to Valleys routes with a couple working Ebbw Vale services. They will become even more rare on mainline services soon.
153's are not suitable for the Bidston line as they don't keep time.

what is the reason 153s dont keep time on bidston? Is it to do the power of the veichle or more the door layout which is inappropriate for metro opperation.

 

[Bikeman78]

It is a shame they could not borrow the Northern 150s again and use those in the north. It would be hard to get them to Newton Heath in the current fragmented railway though.

To have 2-car booked workings on the Marches, especially during the day, is pretty poor given what had been promised. At least they are now 197s and we do not get 150s on the Marches.

If there are booked Northern 150s via Northwich to Chester, it would be easy enough to cycle them via that route.

As regards TfW's fleet, it makes much more sense to use 197s to Bidston and 150s to Ebbw Vale or Measteg, rather than move both fleets the length of the country.

 

[Jez]

I dont think there are enough 150s to run Maesteg, Ebbw Vale etc as well as what other routes are required. Thats why the 197s are there until the 231s come over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2024 ==

I see a 158 was on the 1730 Manchester to South Wales departure today. At least a 158 was found to replace the booked 197. On the up journey from Milford to Manchester it looks like a pair of 153 was used as far as Cardiff before the 158 took over.

 

[Parallel]

Is the 14:30 Manchester to Milford Haven & Pembroke Dock on Sundays still booked to run as a sprinter formation following the timetable change? That fairly reliably turned up at least one in the last timetable change.

Supposedly the service still divides at Whitland looking at the timetable for the coming weeks.

 

[Topological]

I dont think there are enough 150s to run Maesteg, Ebbw Vale etc as well as what other routes are required. Thats why the 197s are there until the 231s come over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2024 ==

I see a 158 was on the 1730 Manchester to South Wales departure today. At least a 158 was found to replace the booked 197. On the up journey from Milford to Manchester it looks like a pair of 153 was used as far as Cardiff before the 158 took over.

The 17:30 from Manchester will have been cosy then.

Hopefully we will see more 3-car acceptance so that there are enough 3-car for most Manchester services. (Remembering that the services are supposed to be 3+2)

 

[Jez]

Is the 14:30 Manchester to Milford Haven & Pembroke Dock on Sundays still booked to run as a sprinter formation following the timetable change? That fairly reliably turned up at least one in the last timetable change.

Supposedly the service still divides at Whitland looking at the timetable for the coming weeks.

I believe its booked for a 197 from the timetable change. Not sure what's happening re the Pembroke portion of the train.

I travelled on this the last Sunday of May so before the timetable change and due to engineering work it was a 197 however despite it going to Milford and not split to go to Pembroke the screens at every station insisted the split was happening!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2024 ==

The 17:30 from Manchester will have been cosy then.

Hopefully we will see more 3-car acceptance so that there are enough 3-car for most Manchester services. (Remembering that the services are supposed to be 3+2)

At least a.158 is not as bad as a 150.

I hope 5 cars on most Marches services isn't too far away.