CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[317 forever]

As the 20.30 from Crewe to Manchester on Thursday was a double 197, I wondered whether it was meant to have been an unavailable Mark 4, leading to 197s taking its place.

 

[sd0733]

As the 20.30 from Crewe to Manchester on Thursday was a double 197, I wondered whether it was meant to have been an unavailable Mark 4, leading to 197s taking its place.

That's booked a double which then splits at Manchester to form the 21:30 and 22:32 from Manchester.

 

[317 forever]

That's booked a double which then splits at Manchester to form the 21:30 and 22:32 from Manchester.

Thank you for the explanation.

TfW must believe that more people leave Manchester than arrive there from far south on their services.

 

[sd0733]

Thank you for the explanation.

TfW must believe that more people leave Manchester than arrive there from far south on their services.

It's just a way of swapping out the Mk4s in the evening. They go to Manchester then come back empty both to balance sets and provide a useful extra to keep drivers competency on different diversions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2024 ==

There's a big increase in 197 work on the Marches tomorrow, after many years of motley collections of 15x running on a Sunday, tomorrow sees only 1 booked 15x on the Marches, a 158 on the 15:31 from Milford Haven. Everything else is booked 197 or Mk4.

 

[Lurcheroo]

RETB (?)

ERTMS (some incorrectly call it ETCS as well). RETB was phased out on the Cambrian around 2011 I believe.

None of those yet, 124 was supposed to be accepted a few days back and made it to Chester but seems to have returned to Crewe South Yard.

119 and 121 have been delivered to Crewe ATC and have started mileage/test runs, 123 i believe has been reported as at Crewe too but not sure about where 126 is.

Thanks both

My apologies think I’ve gotten confused with them being moved with being accepted into service.
I think that may be the week old baby sleep deprivation taking over

 

[simonmpoulton]

Travelled on a 197 on the borderlands line today, they certainly ride a lot better than the 230's down there. Only thing I noticed is the PIS didn't seem to update at all - when I got on at Bidston it was still stuck thinking it was back in Wrexham and it never updated when it got switched to Wrexham as the destination and sat saying Upton was the next stop. Got me wondering - is that caused by some software bug or something else?

 

[Western 52]

Almost certainly with the return of the Tenby service 1330 from Manchester in about a week, unless they continuously swap from Carmarthen

No 197s on the Pembroke line today as far as I can see on RTT, although the last train today has no allocation shown yet.

 

[sd0733]

No 197s on the Pembroke line today as far as I can see on RTT, although the last train today has no allocation shown yet.

All booked either 153 or 150+153 today, that last one is a single 153 diagram.

 

[Jez]

It's just a way of swapping out the Mk4s in the evening. They go to Manchester then come back empty both to balance sets and provide a useful extra to keep drivers competency on different diversions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2024 ==

There's a big increase in 197 work on the Marches tomorrow, after many years of motley collections of 15x running on a Sunday, tomorrow sees only 1 booked 15x on the Marches, a 158 on the 15:31 from Milford Haven. Everything else is booked 197 or Mk4.

Indeed. The first Swansea-Manchester on a Sunday (Crewe today due to the diversion via Chester) is a 2 car 197 with another 2 car added at Cardiff. Whilst the 0836 from Carmarthen is a 2 car 197. These have been Sprinters for as long as I can remember.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2024 ==

No 197s on the Pembroke line today as far as I can see on RTT, although the last train today has no allocation shown yet.

Have 197s officially been cleared for passenger service yet on the Pembroke Branch?

 

[317 forever]

It's just a way of swapping out the Mk4s in the evening. They go to Manchester then come back empty both to balance sets and provide a useful extra to keep drivers competency on different diversions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2024 ==

There's a big increase in 197 work on the Marches tomorrow, after many years of motley collections of 15x running on a Sunday, tomorrow sees only 1 booked 15x on the Marches, a 158 on the 15:31 from Milford Haven. Everything else is booked 197 or Mk4.

Oh yes, in the Wilmslow area I saw a Mk 4 pass, evidently having arrived on the line via East Didsbury. Then a southbound 197 appeared just minutes later in normal service into the expected platform.

 

[Rhydgaled]

ERTMS (some incorrectly call it ETCS as well).

Both are correct aren't they? My understanding was that ERTMS is the whole thing (including GSM(R) radio) with ETCS specifically being the in-cab signalling aspect (in other words, stock used on the Cambrian has to have ERTMS, which means it has to have ETCS since ETCS is part of ERTMS). Am I wrong?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Both are correct aren't they? My understanding was that ERTMS is the whole thing (including GSM(R) radio) with ETCS specifically being the in-cab signalling aspect (in other words, stock used on the Cambrian has to have ERTMS, which means it has to have ETCS since ETCS is part of ERTMS). Am I wrong?

Yeah pretty much, ERTMS is made up of 3 components of which one is ETCS.

ETCS is a used term but the system is ERTMS.I’m not quite sure why it’s become common for it to be referred to as ETCS wholly.

 

[43096]

Yeah pretty much, ERTMS is made up of 3 components of which one is ETCS.

ETCS is a used term but the system is ERTMS.I’m not quite sure why it’s become common for it to be referred to as ETCS wholly.

The ERTMS website (ertms.net) is very clear that several components make up ERTMS, including GSM-R, Automatic Train Operation (ATO) and European Train Control System (ETCS), the latter of which provides ATP functionality. It is therefore perfectly accurate - and indeed more accurate - to use ETCS whend describing the train-borne ATP system.

 

[BillStampy]

Seems that more 197s are going to take over more previously 15X services tomorrow. Noticed that the early rush Carmarthen to Cardiff service is a 197/1 tomorrow, forming up to Cheltenham. And the Milford after is 197/1 too (it already was booked 197, just a bit of context). However a Manchester pointed out to me as a 2 coach 197.. the worst part is it forms the 1703 from Cardiff to Carmarthen which from own experience is full. Swapping the Carmarthen 197 to the Manchester doesn't sound so bad..

Enough complaining now, back to good side. The Fishguard from Cardiff around 1600 is also 197 (113) tomorrow when usually 15X combo. It's good to see that more 15X's are slowly slipping away, but the other downside is the fleet overstretching again. See how it turns out tomorrow morning

 

[sd0733]

Seems that more 197s are going to take over more previously 15X services tomorrow. Noticed that the early rush Carmarthen to Cardiff service is a 197/1 tomorrow, forming up to Cheltenham. And the Milford after is 197/1 too (it already was booked 197, just a bit of context). However a Manchester pointed out to me as a 2 coach 197.. the worst part is it forms the 1703 from Cardiff to Carmarthen which from own experience is full. Swapping the Carmarthen 197 to the Manchester doesn't sound so bad..

There's now 42 197 diagrams from tomorrow, 24 2 car and 18 3 car.
Some long standing 15x diagrams have now gone over to 197 including the 00:30 Cardiff to Hereford and 21:55 Cardiff to Crewe. There is however a reduction of 3 car diagrams to Manchester, albeit they're mostly the mid morning departures which then leave Manchester at the quietest times.
This does seem to end any booked work Monday to Thursday (as @craigybagel says the 21:55 is booked a pair of 153s on a Friday) at least of any 150/153 traction between Newport and Craven Arms.

Booked formations on the Marches are now (departure time from Cardiff)
04:35 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
05:12 Holyhead 3 car 197
05:39 Manchester 3 car 197
06:35 Manchester 3 car 197
07:17 Holyhead 2 car 197
07:50 Manchester 2 car 197
08:49 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
09:22 Holyhead 2 car 158
09: 54 Manchester 2 car 197
10:52 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
11:25 Holyhead 3 car 197
11:50 Manchester 2 car 197
12:49 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
13:22 Holyhead 3 car 197
13:50 Manchester 3 car 197
14:49 Manchester 3 car 197
15:23 Holyhead 3 car 197
15:49 Manchester 4 car 197
16:22 Chester 2 car 197
16:49 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
17:14 Holyhead 4/5 car Mk4
17:49 Manchester 4 car 197
18:22 Chester 3 car 197
18:55 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
19:41 Holyhead 2 car 158
20:05 Manchester 3 car 197
21:15 Chester 2 car 197
21:55 Mon-Thurs Crewe 3 car 197
21:55 Fri 2x153 to Shrewsbury, 2 different 153s to Crewe
00:30 Hereford 5 car 197

 

[Lurcheroo]

The ERTMS website (ertms.net) is very clear that several components make up ERTMS, including GSM-R, Automatic Train Operation (ATO) and European Train Control System (ETCS), the latter of which provides ATP functionality. It is therefore perfectly accurate - and indeed more accurate - to use ETCS whend describing the train-borne ATP system.

Oh ok, well you know more about it than me then.

 

[craigybagel]

There's now 42 197 diagrams from tomorrow, 24 2 car and 18 3 car.
Some long standing 15x diagrams have now gone over to 197 including the 00:30 Cardiff to Hereford and 21:55 Cardiff to Crewe. There is however a reduction of 3 car diagrams to Manchester, albeit they're mostly the mid morning departures which then leave Manchester at the quietest times.
This does seem to end any booked work Monday to Friday at least of any 150/153 traction between Newport and Craven Arms.

Booked formations on the Marches are now (departure time from Cardiff)

21:55 Crewe 3 car 197

Being very pedantic I know but the 2155 is still a 153 on a Friday. On that day it also terminates at Shrewsbury, with a separate service continuing on to Crewe, formed of two other 153s.

Oh ok, well you know more about it than me then.

To be fair, as you'll be well aware yourself, within TfW traincrew circles the system is referred to 99% of the time as ERTMS, regardless of whether or not that's the actual official name for it!

 

[sd0733]

Being very pedantic I know but the 2155 is still a 153 on a Friday. On that day it also terminates at Shrewsbury, with a separate service continuing on to Crewe, formed of two other 153s.

So it does, I even noticed that it was different on the traincrew diagrams and then forgot when wrote it . Amended accordingly!

 

[twpsaesneg]

Booked formations on the Marches are now (departure time from Cardiff)
04:35 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
05:12 Holyhead 3 car 197
05:39 Manchester 3 car 197
06:35 Manchester 3 car 197
07:17 Holyhead 2 car 197
07:50 Manchester 2 car 197
08:49 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
09:22 Holyhead 2 car 158
09: 54 Manchester 2 car 197
10:52 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
11:25 Holyhead 3 car 197
11:50 Manchester 2 car 197
12:49 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
13:22 Holyhead 3 car 197
13:50 Manchester 3 car 197
14:49 Manchester 3 car 197
15:23 Holyhead 3 car 197
15:49 Manchester 4 car 197
16:22 Chester 2 car 197
16:49 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
17:14 Holyhead 4/5 car Mk4
17:49 Manchester 4 car 197
18:22 Chester 3 car 197
18:55 Manchester 4/5 car Mk4
19:41 Holyhead 2 car 158
20:05 Manchester 3 car 197
21:15 Chester 2 car 197
21:55 Mon-Thurs Crewe 3 car 197
21:55 Fri 2x153 to Shrewsbury, 2 different 153s to Crewe
00:30 Hereford 5 car 197

Is that the final plan? It's a bit disappointing that only 3 of the services (my bold above) seem to be actually planned as 197's in multi, I was under the impression that the majority of services on the Cardiff - Manchester corridor were intended to be either Mk4 sets or 5-6 car 197's, with then splits to go further west from Swansea.

Hopeful that there's a further iteration to bring those in?

 

[craigybagel]

Is that the final plan? It's a bit disappointing that only 3 of the services (my bold above) seem to be actually planned as 197's in multi, I was under the impression that the majority of services on the Cardiff - Manchester corridor were intended to be either Mk4 sets or 5-6 car 197's, with then splits to go further west from Swansea.

Hopeful that there's a further iteration to bring those in?

That's just the plan from today. There's plenty more to come in future when all of the new fleets are in service.

 

[Jez]

Its great to see almost all TFW Swansea-Cardiff services are now 197s. The only ones that seem to be Sprinters are to ensure swaps are made between Canton and Pembroke.

Even the Fishguard boat train is a 197 - although returning to Cardiff via Landore rather than the Swansea District Line so I assume thats still not been cleared for 197s.

 

[Topological]

I see the plan lasted 2 trains before a 2-car was sent out on 1W13 in place of the planned 3-car.

Also a 2-car substitution on the 14:30 Mk4 ex-Manchester (Though impressively that recovered a 30 minute delay to arrive in Manchester on time)

Selfishly, I am pleased to see the 0538 ex-Cardiff get another carriage as it does get cosy further north.

 

[BenBracken]

Some interesting bits of info on this article. PD 197s ‘June’. 51/77 units introduced.

Introducing our new trains: frequently asked questions

We’ve now introduced over 60 of our brand new trains to service – over 40% of the final total. More and more of our services are being operated by new trains, and this will continue to increase over the rest of this year.

news.tfw.wales

 

[Lurcheroo]

To be fair, as you'll be well aware yourself, within TfW traincrew circles the system is referred to 99% of the time as ERTMS, regardless of whether or not that's the actual official name for it!

Haha yes.
Not sure up your way but on the Cambrian people don’t say it like E-R-T-M-S they say ‘ERTUMS’. Although with the blog post TFW have put up the also use ETCS, so perhaps I shall admit defeat haha!

Some interesting bits of info on this article. PD 197s ‘June’. 51/77 units introduced.

Introducing our new trains: frequently asked questions

We’ve now introduced over 60 of our brand new trains to service – over 40% of the final total. More and more of our services are being operated by new trains, and this will continue to increase over the rest of this year.

news.tfw.wales

Couple things I see interesting, they’re planning all marches services will be 5 cars in the next year.
Sounds like some of the Cambrian 197’s are still to be built and they aren’t committing to an in-service date for the Cambrian.

 

[BillStampy]

Some interesting bits of info on this article. PD 197s ‘June’. 51/77 units introduced.

Introducing our new trains: frequently asked questions

We’ve now introduced over 60 of our brand new trains to service – over 40% of the final total. More and more of our services are being operated by new trains, and this will continue to increase over the rest of this year.

news.tfw.wales

I believe "June" will be next week as now the schedule shows the Manchester to Tenby returning next week instead of this week. However, this Saturday the Manchester to Tenby does indeed return (subject to any changes). So the date for their introduction will most likely by the 8th of June (this Saturday), subject to no changes.

Mentioning the 231s, getting them out and about on the Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham will free up X amount (probably about 9) 197s, allowing them to finally see proper usage of higher coaches on the Marches!

 

[Lurcheroo]

Mentioning the 231s, getting them out and about on the Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham will free up X amount (probably about 9) 197s, allowing them to finally see proper usage of higher coaches on the Marches!

I think that and these last 5 3 cars (plus the allowance of 5 car 197’s to Manchester) will make quite a big difference to the provided capacity on the Marches line.

 

[BillStampy]

I think that and these last 5 3 cars (plus the allowance of 5 car 197’s to Manchester) will make quite a big difference to the provided capacity on the Marches line.

Hopefully! With the new timetable introducing a few extra diagrams the new 197s will be well appreciated..

 

[D7672]

197006 has become the first 197 to ooperate 0603 ebbw vale to cardiff on Monday 3rd June 2024

 

[Diedinium]

197014 at Wolverhampton - doing runs to Tyseley depot as a sort of 'test' project to see if they can be taken there by TfW's own drivers rather than freight drivers.

(They go there for tyre turning since they're set up for 196s already)

 

[Matt1981]

Just seen 2x 2 car 197s being dragged through Droitwich on 5Q94 Donnington Rft - Long Marston. No numbers on either unit, but pretty sure they has UT38 and UT41 displayed in the window. Any idea what they were, and why they were heading to Long Marston? Presume they do some preparation of them there prior to acceptance?