Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[poffle]

Will Avanti offer Standard Premium on the 805/807? I know the 221's have never offered it.

No standard premium

Standard premium is a workaround for the fact that the Pendolinos were specified with too much first class accomodation which couldn't be sold.

The 80xs have much less first class accomodation.

 

[Peter Sarf]

No - First & Standard only

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2024 ==



These should be the Sunday diagrams. 1B31 you mentioned should be an 807, however these won't enter service for a while.

That's useful, thanks. Do you have anything similar for weekdays ?.

 

[hexagon789]

Some posters on here mentioned some section may be raised to 115 MU and that's it.

Not quite, there is some MU 125 on the profile but most is 115/120.

 

[baker_06]

That's useful, thanks. Do you have anything similar for weekdays ?.

That's useful, thanks. Do you have anything similar for weekdays ?.

 

[Boodiggy]

Avanti cheaped out. But since HS2 will be the premium/main route to the north I think they don't care too much about slowing down the legacy WCML. I think the fact 390s will always be faster has been known the moment IETs were ordered by Avanti. Some posters on here mentioned some section may be raised to 115 MU and that's it. But they'll always be slower.

Some sections of 125 and 120 MU.
I think the 125 sections of MU total 30 miles or so between Euston and Crewe. In other areas there is no MU are the units will run at PS.
They will always be slower and the acceleration will only account for so much. The 390s will always be quicker.
Even more so with the MU linespeed no yet introduced.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thankyou @baker_06 .

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Some sections of 125 and 120 MU.
I think the 125 sections of MU total 30 miles or so between Euston and Crewe. In other areas there is no MU are the units will run at PS.
They will always be slower and the acceleration will only account for so much. The 390s will always be quicker.
Even more so with the MU linespeed no yet introduced.

So another fine example of new trains bought but without necessary infrastructure changes passengers will end up with a slower service and in worse seats than a pendo.

 

[sh24]

Thanks @baker_06 @poffle - not the news I wanted but good to know.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So another fine example of new trains bought but without necessary infrastructure changes passengers will end up with a slower service and in worse seats than a pendo.

very little choice as a new tilting train to GB loading gauge isn’t offered by any train manufacturers.

 

[NSEWonderer]

very little choice as a new tilting train to GB loading gauge isn’t offered by any train manufacturers.

I do wonder if the APT had actual backing from the Government at the time, would the above still be the same.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

very little choice as a new tilting train to GB loading gauge isn’t offered by any train manufacturers.

might not be green but they would have been better off keeping the voyagers then especially if we are now using diesel mode under the wires into Liverpool we are going backwards

 

[Boodiggy]

So another fine example of new trains bought but without necessary infrastructure changes passengers will end up with a slower service and in worse seats than a pendo.

The infrastructure hasn’t actually been changed, other than installing new signage. The delay is some outstanding compatibility issues.
The project for this is run by AWC.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

might not be green but they would have been better off keeping the voyagers then especially if we are now using diesel mode under the wires into Liverpool we are going backwards

But the voyagers are needed to sort capacity issues on XC…

 

[Boodiggy]

might not be green but they would have been better off keeping the voyagers then especially if we are now using diesel mode under the wires into Liverpool we are going backwards

none of the 805 diagrams show 805’s going to Liverpool so I don’t know why people think they will be.
The additional Liverpool show as cancelled.
There is no date for 807s.
For a fleet of 10 only two are at Oxley. Running to Glasgow next week on test. I doubt these will be ready for the Dec 24 timetable

 

[Sorcerer]

In regards to the reduced speed, I don't really think in the grand scheme of things that there's a huge issue not ordering more tilting trains. Aside from the need to build it within the British loading gauge and rewrite the tilting system, the West Coast Partnership deal was signed with Avanti originally meant to oversee the introduction of HS2 services, so ordering tilting trains that would no longer make up the brunt of intercity services on that route within the decade would've been unnecessary. That was of course before more of the project was axed but with the trains now well into production it's too late to go back on it now.

 

[AJDesiro]

So another fine example of new trains bought but without necessary infrastructure changes passengers will end up with a slower service and in worse seats than a pendo.

They have the same seats as a Pendolino. I think most passengers would rather have the additional capacity, I'm certainly looking forward to it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They have the same seats as a Pendolino. I think most passengers would rather have the additional capacity, I'm certainly looking forward to it.

Well thats one positive after the dreadful harsh interiors on the GWR/LNER IETs but isn't the suggestion 5 cars will be running to Liverpool?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In regards to the reduced speed, I don't really think in the grand scheme of things that there's a huge issue not ordering more tilting trains. Aside from the need to build it within the British loading gauge and rewrite the tilting system, the West Coast Partnership deal was signed with Avanti originally meant to oversee the introduction of HS2 services, so ordering tilting trains that would no longer make up the brunt of intercity services on that route within the decade would've been unnecessary. That was of course before more of the project was axed but with the trains now well into production it's too late to go back on it now.

Production hasn't started on the HS2 trains - there is no frozen design, or firm financial deal.
Hitachi-Alstom is essentially the preferred supplier.

 

[Sorcerer]

Production hasn't started on the HS2 trains - there is no frozen design, or firm financial deal.
Hitachi-Alstom is essentially the preferred supplier.

I was referring to the 805/807 stock.

 

[notadriver]

Some sections of 125 and 120 MU.
I think the 125 sections of MU total 30 miles or so between Euston and Crewe. In other areas there is no MU are the units will run at PS.
They will always be slower and the acceleration will only account for so much. The 390s will always be quicker.
Even more so with the MU linespeed no yet introduced.

In addition Pendolinos can match or exceed iET acceleration above 60 mph.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Pendo's remind me of the JR500. Pretty much a design that's stood the test of time and hasn't actually looked outdated when considering it was an early 21st century baby.

Only issue like the JR500 is that both having a somewhat curved passenger area of the body shell means they're bit more cramped than the newer builds which are less curved in areas of such like the AT300 series aka Class 805/807s.

 

[Northerngirl]

Is the 10:14 from Chester on Sunday still looking likely to be the first one

 

[92002]

Not really. Nobody was going to design a brand new, UK spec tilting bimode trains for such a tiny order.

Interesting that Pendonio is still available on the continent though. Just needs a UK body that already exists So not really a new train.

 

[Mikey C]

Interesting that Pendonio is still available on the continent though. Just needs a UK body that already exists So not really a new train.

The 390s are a 25 year old design, legislation and technology have moved on.

 

[SansHache]

Interesting that Pendonio is still available on the continent though. Just needs a UK body that already exists So not really a new train.

While the Pendolino branding is still used for high-speed trains manufactured by Alstom in Italy, most fleets produced in recent years (ED250 for PKP in Poland, ETR 675 for NTV in Italy and Renfe Class 114 in Spain) lack the tilting mechanism. Hence, the pendular aspect of these Pendolino trains is somewhat lacking!

The Alstom Avelia Liberty trains, shortly to be entering service on the Eastern Corridor in the USA, have tilting coaches but non-tilting power cars.

While Alstom have investigated the development of an upgraded UK Pendolino on several occasions in recent years, the specific requirements for the new Avanti fleet (in particular bi-mode operation to North Wales) could not be achieved. There was insufficient space on the underframe to accommodate power units alongside the existing equipment.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Alstom Avelia Liberty trains, shortly to be entering service on the Eastern Corridor in the USA, have tilting coaches but non-tilting power cars.
.

The Avelia Liberty is derived from the AGV/TGV-M design rather than the Pendolino.

 

[hexagon789]

The Avelia Liberty is derived from the AGV/TGV-M design rather than the Pendolino.

The tilting system is based on that of the Pendolino though.

 

[Trainbike46]

none of the 805 diagrams show 805’s going to Liverpool so I don’t know why people think they will be.
The additional Liverpool show as cancelled.
There is no date for 807s.
For a fleet of 10 only two are at Oxley. Running to Glasgow next week on test. I doubt these will be ready for the Dec 24 timetable

Because it was stated in a TfN (?) meeting that the second Liverpool service would start with 805s on diesel north of Crewe - people aren't just making it up, though when exactly this second Liverpool service will start is unclear

Well thats one positive after the dreadful harsh interiors on the GWR/LNER IETs but isn't the suggestion 5 cars will be running to Liverpool?

The 80x are only intended for the second hourly service to Liverpool, so completely additional to the existing hourly pendolino service (though most of the current pendolino services run in the 80x path)

 

[Sorcerer]

Interesting that Pendolino is still available on the continent though. Just needs a UK body that already exists So not really a new train.

The Pendolino on the continent does not come in the form of a bi-mode unit though, and while you could argue that a few Pendolinos could have been ordered instead of 807s as the electric-only stock to go with the 805 bi-modes (and indeed it wouldn't be unusual to have such a small order) it was better to just have a follow-on order from the same manufacturer. Not to mention the many other technical reasons why it wouldn't be feasible. Like I said earlier, it would not have been practical to order more tilting trains for the WCML when HS2 was just ten years away and would become the primary route for express intercity services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2024 ==

Because it was stated in a TfN (?) meeting that the second Liverpool service would start with 805s on diesel north of Crewe - people aren't just making it up, though when exactly this second Liverpool service will start is unclear

Personally I don't think an 805 would be suitable given that it's only five carriages long while a seven coach 807 would've barely matched the capacity of a nine coach Pendolino, which in itself was barely enough for current capacity. Plus where are these extra 805 units even coming from? I know the Shrewsbury service was withdrawn but are North Wales services being that neglected that we have spare sets to run another train to Liverpool every hour?

 

[Trainbike46]

Personally I don't think an 805 would be suitable given that it's only five carriages long while a seven coach 807 would've barely matched the capacity of a nine coach Pendolino, which in itself was barely enough for current capacity. Plus where are these extra 805 units even coming from? I know the Shrewsbury service was withdrawn but are North Wales services being that neglected that we have spare sets to run another train to Liverpool every hour?

you don't have to match pendolino capacity though - because running an hourly pendolino plus an hourly 80x is more capacity than just the hourly pendolino

Clearly the 807s are more suitable once they sort out the power supply - the 807 was ordered for this service (and the Birminghams), and they picked 7-cars so they could stop at Liverpool South Parkway, which can't be served by pendolinos

I agree they shouldn't reduce North Wales or Chester services to enable a second hourly Liverpool, but is there any evidence they're actually doing that?