Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[Boodiggy]

Possibly the issue that Class 89 and Mk3's won't be given MU classification? And therefore be limited to PS speeds? If I were at LSL, that would be my concern.

I doubt they will as it is a loco hauled set.
The issues is with the compatibility study are for the HST, but there are also issues on the AWC side too.

 

[Railperf]

What sort of issues for AWC? The issue for HST's will always be the sluggish acceleration over 110mph anyway to take advantage of short 120/125mph sections of track.

 

[Boodiggy]

What sort of issues for AWC? The issue for HST's will always be the sluggish acceleration over 110mph anyway to take advantage of short 120/125mph sections of track.

Related to the fleet compatibility being signed off.

 

[Northerngirl]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the IETs on routes that stop the most frequent, such as through Birmingham

 

[Railperf]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the IETs on routes that stop the most frequent, such as through Birmingham?

In this case the IETs replace 'dirty' class 221's running under the wires. It could make sense to run the 807s to Birmingham rather than Liverpool, but not sure they provide enough seats and whether there are enough sets to run enough diagrams. In the short term they are better used on Birmingham stoppers where only limited time is lost running at 110mph max south of Rugby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In this case the IETs replace 'dirty' class 221's running under the wires. It could make sense to run the 807s to Birmingham rather than Liverpool, but not sure they provide enough seats and whether there are enough sets to run enough diagrams. In the short term they are better used on Birmingham stoppers where only limited time is lost running at 110mph max south of Rugby.

807s are going to run between Euston and Birmingham on an hourly semifast service (which presently runs some hours mostly using Voyagers). Indeed this is all they will be doing initially until the power supply issues to Liverpool are resolved.

 

[AJDesiro]

In this case the IETs replace 'dirty' class 221's running under the wires. It could make sense to run the 807s to Birmingham rather than Liverpool, but not sure they provide enough seats and whether there are enough sets to run enough diagrams. In the short term they are better used on Birmingham stoppers where only limited time is lost running at 110mph max south of Rugby.

It was always the plan to use 807s on the Euston-Birmingham semifast alongside Liverpools. An 807 has 404 seats in standard, which is 29 more than a 9-car 390, so capacity should be fine most hours if/when the Birmingham service runs at the full 3tph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was always the plan to use 807s on the Euston-Birmingham semifast alongside Liverpools. An 807 has 404 seats in standard, which is 29 more than a 9-car 390, so capacity should be fine most hours if/when the Birmingham service runs at the full 3tph.

It'll be more than enough - they will only fill the semifasts if they price people onto them anyway. In the hours when they run at present they are very quiet - without stacks of cheap Advances they are only attractive to passengers going to/from Rugby, MK and Watford.

 

[Trainbike46]

It'll be more than enough - they will only fill the semifasts if they price people onto them anyway. In the hours when they run at present they are very quiet - without stacks of cheap Advances they are only attractive to passengers going to/from Rugby, MK and Watford.

Did avanti effectively abandon advances on that route as well?

On Liverpool-Euston, advances have effectively disappeared, in that it is basically impossible to get 2x advances for less than the price of an off-peak return

Though I guess they could be intending to use superfare to fill those trains

 

[Sorcerer]

The 807s on the Birmingham semi-fast might just be the only thing that stopped them becoming a wasted order. Unfortunately any Pendolinos they are running on that route will be moved to Scotland services, so that doesn't leave any spare sets for them to do the second Liverpool service instead. Maybe I've grown cynical, but I just feel like the power supply upgrades needed for the second Liverpool services won't be happening anytime soon. The best hope for that is Virgin's open access application for those paths currently unused.

 

[danbarjon]

The 807s on the Birmingham semi-fast might just be the only thing that stopped them becoming a wasted order. Unfortunately any Pendolinos they are running on that route will be moved to Scotland services, so that doesn't leave any spare sets for them to do the second Liverpool service instead. Maybe I've grown cynical, but I just feel like the power supply upgrades needed for the second Liverpool services won't be happening anytime soon. The best hope for that is Virgin's open access application for those paths currently unused.

It would definitely be interesting to see a Virgin 22x at Liverpool...

 

[Sorcerer]

It would definitely be interesting to see a Virgin 22x at Liverpool...

Indeed, and if it were a 221 it may also be the first time it becomes a regular sight at Liverpool Lime Street since Virgin CrossCountry ended their services there as well. I am hopeful that the power supply upgrades are soon provided though regardless of who fills the empty paths, because in this day and age we shouldn't have diesel power under fully-functioning overhead lines. It would also just make full proper use of the 807s instead of confining them to the Birmingham semi-fast which was only half of what they were intended for.

 

[Railperf]

So the 2nd Liverpool service is being scrapped/ postponed due to the electric supply issue?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the 2nd Liverpool service is being scrapped/ postponed due to the electric supply issue?

I was of the impression that it will start but with 5-car 805s on diesel north of Crewe.

 

[Railperf]

Are there enough 805s to serve Holyhead and Liverpool diagrams?

 

[Trainbike46]

The 807s on the Birmingham semi-fast might just be the only thing that stopped them becoming a wasted order. Unfortunately any Pendolinos they are running on that route will be moved to Scotland services, so that doesn't leave any spare sets for them to do the second Liverpool service instead. Maybe I've grown cynical, but I just feel like the power supply upgrades needed for the second Liverpool services won't be happening anytime soon. The best hope for that is Virgin's open access application for those paths currently unused.

the 807s will be lasting until 2065 - I don't think there is any evidence of them becoming a wasted order - and I'm sure the power supply upgrade will happen, even if it causes delays

I was of the impression that it will start but with 5-car 805s on diesel north of Crewe.

This was my impression as well - start with 805s, switch to 807s after the power supply upgrade is complete

 

[danbarjon]

So the 2nd Liverpool service is being scrapped/ postponed due to the electric supply issue?

Well Virgin's applications was hinting at taking the 2nd service but it's unknown

 

[poffle]

I was of the impression that it will start but with 5-car 805s on diesel north of Crewe.

I don't think there would be enough 805s to run a single 805 hourly service from Liverpool to London. There are 13 x 805 units being purchased. An hourly service to Euston/Liverpool probably needs 6 units particularly as 805s are a bit slower but faster acceleration so suited to more intermediate stops.

North Wales probably needs at least 6 units.

Allowing for maintenance etc. 6 x 805s for Liverpool would be unlikely. Could use some 805s to supplement Pendolinos though.

 

[Trainbike46]

I don't think there would be enough 805s to run a single 805 hourly service from Liverpool to London. There are 13 x 805 units being purchased. An hourly service to Euston/Liverpool probably needs 6 units particularly as 805s are a bit slower but faster acceleration so suited to more intermediate stops.

North Wales probably needs at least 6 units.

Allowing for maintenance etc. 6 x 805s for Liverpool would be unlikely. Could use some 805s to supplement Pendolinos though.

many of the current liverpool services use the path intended for the 807s, so their timings can be taken as right for the 805s
you can't run 2 pendolino services an hour for the same reason you can't use the 807 - power supply limitations

Though of course they could start the 2nd liverpool service only on some hours - or retain some 221s for longer to fill the gap

 

[Railperf]

I don't think there would be enough 805s to run a single 805 hourly service from Liverpool to London. There are 13 x 805 units being purchased. An hourly service to Euston/Liverpool probably needs 6 units particularly as 805s are a bit slower but faster acceleration so suited to more intermediate stops.

North Wales probably needs at least 6 units.

Allowing for maintenance etc. 6 x 805s for Liverpool would be unlikely. Could use some 805s to supplement Pendolinos though.

The four diagrams switching to 805's require 5 units while the remaining 3 diagrams operated by 221's require 6 units. That's 11 of 13 units ordered. Leaves 2 spare?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 May 2024 ==

many of the current liverpool services use the path intended for the 807s, so their timings can be taken as right for the 805s
you can't run 2 pendolino services an hour for the same reason you can't use the 807 - power supply limitations

Though of course they could start the 2nd liverpool service only on some hours - or retain some 221s for longer to fill the gap

Some Liverpool services are timed for 807 at MU speeds, not PS speeds. So more retiming would be necessary.

 

[Boodiggy]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the IETs on routes that stop the most frequent, such as through Birmingham

If it could be done to match diagrams it would but must be reasons it is being done as it is..

many of the current liverpool services use the path intended for the 807s, so their timings can be taken as right for the 805s
you can't run 2 pendolino services an hour for the same reason you can't use the 807 - power supply limitations

Though of course they could start the 2nd liverpool service only on some hours - or retain some 221s for longer to fill the gap

For Dec 24 TT only one additional round trip to Liverpool showing.

 

[Railperf]

Do we know approx dates for the remaining 221 operated diagrams to switch over to 805's?
There's a continued misunderstanding of IET performance vs 390. The 390's with tilt will always be faster than an IET because the higher top speeds available with tilt using a 390 will create greater time savings than simply having a train that can accelerate faster to a lower top speed. Virgin trains knew what they were doing back in the day by ordering tilting trains as opposed to ordering a 125mph non tilting unit.

 

[CapabilityB]

Spotted an interloper last night.

 

[danbarjon]

Spotted an interloper last night.

I personally believe that all of FirstGroups liveries are amazing (except Lumo, and also including TPE as it was their design)

 

[RailWonderer]

Do we know approx dates for the remaining 221 operated diagrams to switch over to 805's?
There's a continued misunderstanding of IET performance vs 390. The 390's with tilt will always be faster than an IET because the higher top speeds available with tilt using a 390 will create greater time savings than simply having a train that can accelerate faster to a lower top speed. Virgin trains knew what they were doing back in the day by ordering tilting trains as opposed to ordering a 125mph non tilting unit.

Avanti cheaped out. But since HS2 will be the premium/main route to the north I think they don't care too much about slowing down the legacy WCML. I think the fact 390s will always be faster has been known the moment IETs were ordered by Avanti. Some posters on here mentioned some section may be raised to 115 MU and that's it. But they'll always be slower.

 

[Mikey C]

Avanti cheaped out. But since HS2 will be the premium/main route to the north I think they don't care too much about slowing down the legacy WCML. I think the fact 390s will always be faster has been known the moment IETs were ordered by Avanti. Some posters on here mentioned some section may be raised to 115 MU and that's it. But they'll always be slower.

Not really. Nobody was going to design a brand new, UK spec tilting bimode trains for such a tiny order.

 

[sh24]

Will Avanti offer Standard Premium on the 805/807? I know the 221's have never offered it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

1A16 10:14 CTR-EUS will be the first single
1D83 10:36 CRE-HHD will be the first double

(It's still early in the week, STP's are usually finalised Wednesday/Thursday so this might change!)

I don't know how valid this is, but in addition to the Chester workings the ECS paths from Oxley on Sunday 2 June show an 805 working 5B31 to Wolverhampton and then 1B31 0833 Wolverhampton-Euston arr 1056.
That would make it the first passenger 805, and after reaching Euston it works 1F19 (1119 Euston-Liverpool).
Or not...

 

[baker_06]

Will Avanti offer Standard Premium on the 805/807? I know the 221's have never offered it.

No - First & Standard only

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 May 2024 ==

I don't know how valid this is, but in addition to the Chester workings the ECS paths from Oxley on Sunday 2 June show an 805 working 5B31 to Wolverhampton and then 1B31 0833 Wolverhampton-Euston arr 1056.
That would make it the first passenger 805, and after reaching Euston it works 1F19 (1119 Euston-Liverpool).
Or not...

These should be the Sunday diagrams. 1B31 you mentioned should be an 807, however these won't enter service for a while.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

These should be the Sunday diagrams. 1B31 you mentioned should be an 807, however these won't enter service for a while.

Ah yes, RTT says 80x and I assumed 805.
So the Chester/Crewe departures will be the first AT300s in service on Sunday.