UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[renegademaster]

I’m quite surprised at the sales numbers. At least half of all 24 plate cars I am seeing are EVs. And it’s not just because I live in Hertfordshire, this is my observation all over the country. I do accelt that official numbers are more reliable than the BR eyeball though.

Could it be your eyes are more driven to plates with the green band, skewing the numbers?

 

[jon0844]

BYD and MG have cut prices in some markets, some by quite a large amount, and you can now pre-order a Dacia Spring, with the Citroën e-C3 going on sale later in the year.

Other small cars, including variants of the C3 from Stellantis, will follow so I can see a big surge in EV sales once there are smaller city cars to choose from, and lower prices.

The new Mini, which isn't that cheap, is also a great looking car.

I always hoped 2025 would be a turning point, as that's how long I leased a petrol car for (hoping the options would be far greater) and it seems it may actually happen this year, albeit the last quarter.

The Volvo EX30 also appears to proving popular and unable to keep up with demand.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could it be your eyes are more driven to plates with the green band, skewing the numbers?

Nope.

The Volvo EX30 also appears to proving popular and unable to keep up with demand.

I’d heard that too.

 

[renegademaster]

Nope

Do you sit at the side of the road methodically checking licence plates? If not, you are going to be looking for signs that a car is newer , and the green band electrics have will subconsciously draw your mind towards them. Also since ULEZ and similar schemes , lots of commercial vehicles have had to be replaced, lots of lorries and vans are quite new, but not many will be electric

 

[Enthusiast]

Figures released by SMMT for UK ZEV sales are suggesting the target of 22% for the current year 2024 may not be met, noting the penalties of £15000 per car.

If the take-up of ZEV cars too low to make mandate targets ( we cannot be forced to buy ZEV) will car makers begin a policy of constraining sales of non-ZEV cars for the purpose of avoiding the £15000 / car penalty?

Well Stellantis, the parent company of (among other brands) Citroën, Peugeot and Vauxhall has solved its problem (at least for the time being). They plan to import and sell cheap Chinese EVs to meet their quota:

Vauxhall owner to sell Chinese budget EVs in UK

Markets and small-cap news.

www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk

Stellantis plans to bring over Leapmotor’s TO3, a small Fiat-500-style EV with a range of 165 miles per charge, and the five-seater C10 SUV . In China, the compact models typically sell for around £5,500, but Stellantis and experts believe the car could be sold for between £17,200 and £22,000 in the UK.

So they will sell these cars (I’ve no idea of their quality or standards, but they may not be too good) at a tidy profit with no effort other than transporting them to where they are needed. Meanwhile they will be free to continue selling the IC cars which people want and not be troubled by the ridiculous “fines” the government imposes on them if they fail to meet their EV quota.

This quota scheme is the work of the madhouse, and a perfect example of the need to beware of unintended consequences. All Stellantis have done is to offshore the nasty business of producing cars (along with the emissions produced by that process) to a country which is, shall we say, a little less enthralled to “Net Zero”.

Of course it’s not surprising. Along with many other European countries, much of the UK’s industry has been similarly offshored. The Chinese probably cannot believe their luck. They have no intention of sacrificing their economic growth for environmental concerns. They have an “aspiration” to reach net zero by 2060 but unlike the UK they have no intention of (further) impoverishing their population and stifling their economy to reach that goal. Meanwhile the UK has net zero embedded in law and environmental groups are taking the government to court for not doing enough.

The UK is contributing to an industrial revolution in China. It could cease all its carbon emissions tomorrow (and I mean all – not the “net zero” nonsense calculated by “creative accounting”) and it would make absolutely no difference whatsoever to whatever problems carbon emissions are said to cause. That’s because almost all the emissions saved here are simply recreated elsewhere – mostly in China where more coal is burned than in the rest of the world put together.

So the question that should be asked is not whether the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic. It’s more whether it’s really worth all the bother. Similarly you might ask whether it's worth making sure that you only pee in the deep end of the swimming pool.

 

[trebor79]

Well Stellantis, the parent company of (among other brands) Citroën, Peugeot and Vauxhall has solved its problem (at least for the time being). They plan to import and sell cheap Chinese EVs to meet their quota:

Vauxhall owner to sell Chinese budget EVs in UK

Markets and small-cap news.

www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk

So they will sell these cars (I’ve no idea of their quality or standards, but they may not be too good) at a tidy profit with no effort other than transporting them to where they are needed. Meanwhile they will be free to continue selling the IC cars which people want and not be troubled by the ridiculous “fines” the government imposes on them if they fail to meet their EV quota.

This quota scheme is the work of the madhouse, and a perfect example of the need to beware of unintended consequences. All Stellantis have done is to offshore the nasty business of producing cars (along with the emissions produced by that process) to a country which is, shall we say, a little less enthralled to “Net Zero”.

Of course it’s not surprising. Along with many other European countries, much of the UK’s industry has been similarly offshored. The Chinese probably cannot believe their luck. They have no intention of sacrificing their economic growth for environmental concerns. They have an “aspiration” to reach net zero by 2060 but unlike the UK they have no intention of (further) impoverishing their population and stifling their economy to reach that goal. Meanwhile the UK has net zero embedded in law and environmental groups are taking the government to court for not doing enough.

The UK is contributing to an industrial revolution in China. It could cease all its carbon emissions tomorrow (and I mean all – not the “net zero” nonsense calculated by “creative accounting”) and it would make absolutely no difference whatsoever to whatever problems carbon emissions are said to cause. That’s because almost all the emissions saved here are simply recreated elsewhere – mostly in China where more coal is burned than in the rest of the world put together.

So the question that should be asked is not whether the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic. It’s more whether it’s really worth all the bother. Similarly you might ask whether it's worth making sure that you only pee in the deep end of the swimming pool.

It's great and working as intended IMO. The sooner all these filthy ICE engines are gone the better. It's not just about carbon, but all the filth and pollutants spewing into the air we breathe.
Yep, producing cars or anything else requires energy and resources. China installs more renewable power each year than the rest of the world put together, as well as being the biggest EV market in the world.

 

[InkyScrolls]

BYD and MG have cut prices in some markets, some by quite a large amount, and you can now pre-order a Dacia Spring, with the Citroën e-C3 going on sale later in the year.

Other small cars, including variants of the C3 from Stellantis, will follow so I can see a big surge in EV sales once there are smaller city cars to choose from, and lower prices.

The new Mini, which isn't that cheap, is also a great looking car.

I always hoped 2025 would be a turning point, as that's how long I leased a petrol car for (hoping the options would be far greater) and it seems it may actually happen this year, albeit the last quarter.

The Volvo EX30 also appears to proving popular and unable to keep up with demand.

I quite like the look of the Dacia Spring but such a small range puts me off - I frequently do trips of 200+ miles and don't want to be stopping more than 15 mins once or twice, certainly not 45 mins to charge multiple times.

 

[jon0844]

I quite like the look of the Dacia Spring but such a small range puts me off - I frequently do trips of 200+ miles and don't want to be stopping more than 15 mins once or twice, certainly not 45 mins to charge multiple times.

Probably not a car aimed at you then. It's very much a perfect city car, and the cheaper variant with less power probably makes the most sense (and is of course the model that's cheapest).

I bet they sell especially well as second cars, at least to those not put off by the badge and how they'll be perceived by others. That's going to be one of the problems it will face, just as many people wouldn't look at a BYD car or some other Chinese brands.

(this is where MG is doing so well).

 

[InkyScrolls]

Probably not a car aimed at you then. It's very much a perfect city car, and the cheaper variant with less power probably makes the most sense (and is of course the model that's cheapest).

Oh indeed!

I bet they sell especially well as second cars, at least to those not put off by the badge and how they'll be perceived by others. That's going to be one of the problems it will face, just as many people wouldn't look at a BYD car or some other Chinese brands.

(this is where MG is doing so well).

Badge snobbery is such a stupid point of view. We have a Skoda and it's been the best car we've ever owned.

 

[Energy]

I quite like the look of the Dacia Spring but such a small range puts me off - I frequently do trips of 200+ miles and don't want to be stopping more than 15 mins once or twice, certainly not 45 mins to charge multiple times.

The Dacia Spring is more a town car than someone regularly doing long trips.

The Citroën e-C3 will have a 199mi range (real world slightly less) so should be able to do a trip with only 1 stop. Or on the used market a ID3 may work well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2024 ==

Oh indeed!

Badge snobbery is such a stupid point of view. We have a Skoda and it's been the best car we've ever owned.

To be fair, Skodas are more a VW in disguise while the companies from China are more unknown.

 

[jon0844]

Oh indeed!

Badge snobbery is such a stupid point of view. We have a Skoda and it's been the best car we've ever owned.

Indeed, but it's very real. It's why a lot of people wouldn't look at BYD car, or buy a Oppo or Realme smartphone because 'what would the neighbours think?'.

Of course, Skoda is now an accepted brand and I am sure in time BYD and others will gain acceptance - but it's absolutely a barrier to sales. And I bet the people who refuse to buy one of them will moan at the high cost of what they do end up buying.

 

[Roast Veg]

BYD have been accepted in the battery manufacturing industry for years now. If their steel skills are as good as their lithium skills then the cars will be good.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you sit at the side of the road methodically checking licence plates?

No, but for reasons I’ve never understood I ‘register’ the number plate of every car that goes past me.

Having said that, I did, this afternoon, make a point of going out specifically to check 24 plate cars to see what proportion were EVs. The answer is 61% (sample size 59). Obviously too small a sample to be statistically significant.

 

[jon0844]

BYD have been accepted in the battery manufacturing industry for years now. If their steel skills are as good as their lithium skills then the cars will be good.

Looks like they might be on to manufacturer a lot of new buses for London. Can't wait to see how a lot of the media will respond to that, given the combined hatred of the Mayor and EVs!

 

[trebor79]

Looks like they might be on to manufacturer a lot of new buses for London. Can't wait to see how a lot of the media will respond to that, given the combined hatred of the Mayor and EVs!

From my observations, most of the buses in London are already EVs.

 

[jon0844]

From my observations, most of the buses in London are already EVs.

A lot of them, yes, but I didn't think they were the majority just yet.

 

[Enthusiast]

From my observations, most of the buses in London are already EVs.

London has a total bus fleet of around 8.600 vehicles.

There were 3,835 hybrid buses, 950 battery electric buses, and 20 hydrogen fuel cell buses as of March 2023 – so around 56%.

If your observations are confined to the Central area, you will find the majority to be much larger than that. If you look in the outer areas it will be much lower.

 

[GusB]

BYD has been supplying buses (or parts thereof) to the UK market since 2013, so the name isn't completely unknown here. Having said that, as far as cars are concerned it's a relatively new entrant to the market.

Source is buslistsontheweb.co.uk - annoyingly, that site doesn't let you link to actual search results, but if you go to Advanced Search and select BYD in the "chassis" field, it'll bring up a list of all the vehicles supplied so far. The record count is 1920.

Transport for London's latest published fleet audit as of March 2023 (where's 2024's?!)
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/bus-fleet-data-and-audits

The fleet total includes: 949 Electric buses, 1 NRM retrofitted to Electric, 20 Hydrogen and 3,835 Hybrid buses (including 997 new Routemasters). All vehicles in the fleet are PSVAR compliant.

That's 970 vehicles, including those with hydrogen fuel cells - so 11.2% of the whole fleet. I'm reluctant to include the hybrids as they're not zero emission. There have been further deliveries since then, so the percentage will be higher now.

 

[Krokodil]

Richard Hammond has produced a video taking a Tesla Model X to the Lake District and back with his wife. She showed scepticism, he was enthusiastic. He forgot to plug in overnight but still made it to a rapid charger with a few miles to spare.

Log in or sign up to view

See posts, photos and more on Facebook.

www.facebook.com

 

[Chuffing Heck]

Given that the so called threat from China we can’t have Chinese phones, China has been pushed out of nuclear industry etc, how is it now acceptable to destroy what industry we have left and made to accept Chinese cars, Chinese windmills and solar panels, etc.
Even if they have an acceptable badge slapped on when they arrive at the docks, Evs are little more than phones on wheels?

 

[Class 317]

Given that the so called threat from China we can’t have Chinese phones, China has been pushed out of nuclear industry etc, how is it now acceptable to destroy what industry we have left and made to accept Chinese cars, Chinese windmills and solar panels, etc.
Even if they have an acceptable badge slapped on when they arrive at the docks, Evs are little more than phones on wheels?

But they don't have to be just from China.
We could choose to onshore some / all of the manufacturing or at least of the critical components. I really don't see it being to much different to relying on fossil fuels predominantly produced in countries of questionable ethics and politics.

 

[jon0844]

Richard Hammond has produced a video taking a Tesla Model X to the Lake District and back with his wife. She showed scepticism, he was enthusiastic. He forgot to plug in overnight but still made it to a rapid charger with a few miles to spare.

Log in or sign up to view

See posts, photos and more on Facebook.

www.facebook.com

I suspect he didn't forget, as otherwise there was nothing to write about!

More and more people are working hard to tell people that range anxiety doesn't need to be a thing. Not easy when every discussion leads to someone stating they need a car with a 800 mile range for a 3am phone call demanding they drive the whole country to attend to a sick relative.

 

[AM9]

Given that the so called threat from China we can’t have Chinese phones,

There is no restriction on purchasing Huawei or any other Chinese manufacturers' Smartphones in the UK

China has been pushed out of nuclear industry etc, how is it now acceptable to destroy what industry we have left and made to accept Chinese cars,
Chinese windmills and solar panels, etc.

Not sure if you are in the market for Chinese nuclear power stations, - or why they are so much more attractive to buy than those from other industrialised nations.

There are plenty of non-Chinese manufacturers selling cars (including EVs):

e.g. Volkswagen group (VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda), Volvo, Fiat, Renault, PSA (Peugeot/Citroen), Stellantis - owned by PSA (Vauxhall/Opel), Mercedes, BMW, etc., all basically European​

Then there are what I think you mean by "Chinese windmills" actually named by their function, - 'wind turbines':

e.g. Aeolos, Britwind, Coemi, Endurance, Gaia, Proven, Ryse Energy, VWT Power, Xzeres Wind, etc..​

Solar Panels:

e.g. Project Solar, REA Solar, Sun Power, REC Group, Solarwatt, etc..​

Even if they have an acceptable badge slapped on when they arrive at the docks, Evs are little more than phones on wheels?

You have a strange view on what EVs actually are and it seems your opinion is based on little or no research as to what alternatives there are for a frustratyed buyer. Maybe you could explain what is your problem.

 

[Mawkie]

There are plenty of non-Chinese manufacturers selling cars (including EVs):
e.g. Volkswagen group (VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda), Volvo, Fiat, Renault, PSA (Peugeot/Citroen), Stellantis - owned by PSA (Vauxhall/Opel), Mercedes, BMW, etc., all basically European

I agree with your entire post - the anti EV brigade really clutch at straws sometimes.

Just a reminder that if you buy a Volvo, you are buying from a Chinese company (Geely), likewise a London black cab, Smart, Lotus, and Polestar.

Also reminding everyone that BMW, Volkswagen, as well as Tesla all manufacture in China for the export market.

(Written on my Oneplus mobile phone, HQ in Shenzhen, China)

 

[E27007]

I agree with your entire post - the anti EV brigade really clutch at straws sometimes.

Just a reminder that if you buy a Volvo, you are buying from a Chinese company (Geely), likewise a London black cab, Smart, Lotus, and Polestar.

Also reminding everyone that BMW, Volkswagen, as well as Tesla all manufacture in China for the export market.

(Written on my Oneplus mobile phone, HQ in Shenzhen, China)

For world vehicle production numbers for 2023 , cars light vehicles buses etc, of 90+ million, 30 million vehicles are produced in China , around 1 in 3.
The 30 million dwarves the second producer, the USA with 10 million vehicles.

World Vehicle Production figures

 

[jon0844]

There is no restriction on purchasing Huawei or any other Chinese manufacturers' Smartphones in the UK

Sadly the lack of Google Mobile Services has pretty much destroyed Huawei sales in the UK, although Honor (now sold off but still associated with Huawei) gets around this issue.

The UK did get all hot and bothered about Huawei infrastructure though, and forced it all to be decommissioned and arguably it set back our 5G rollout by a few years as the likes of EE and others had to spend lots of money replacing kit they'd already installed.

I do expect we're going to see some action taken by the EU next month on Chinese EV imports and who knows what the UK Government will choose to do under a potentially all new Government.

There are, of course, loopholes in the US tariffs and I'm sure there will be here. And China was already looking to build more plants in Europe, so this will likely just speed that up.

 

[Chuffing Heck]

I agree with your entire post - the anti EV brigade really clutch at straws sometimes.

Just a reminder that if you buy a Volvo, you are buying from a Chinese company (Geely), likewise a London black cab, Smart, Lotus, and Polestar.

Also reminding everyone that BMW, Volkswagen, as well as Tesla all manufacture in China for the export market.

(Written on my Oneplus mobile phone, HQ in Shenzhen, China)

That is basically what I was trying to say if you purchase a car from a legacy maker the chances are it has been made in China, with no British jobs who is going to be able buy these cars?

 

[AM9]

That is basically what I was trying to say if you purchase a car from a legacy maker the chances are it has been made in China, with no British jobs who is going to be able buy these cars?

There are more jobs in the UK than in car manufacture. The primacy of UK car manufacturers disappeared in the '60s and even then Ford, Vauxhall (both US owned and largely designed) were supplying a large proportion of the total new car demand. Also, even such 'British' models as the Rover 3500 range used US Buick engines. By the '70s, British Leyland were recycling early '50s engine designs which had marginal fuel efficiency, but quickly became too klunky for most buyers except those with an incurable nostalgia for the halcyon days of open roads. In the '80, BL sold out to Honda. Ever since then, the UK car industry has been sold out for quick bucks, and the current government's attitude to decarbonisation has left the UK way behind most other developed countries in terms of EVs.
Irrespective of who owns the factories, the total of the UK workforce engaged in car manufacture is about 130,000. That's less than 0.4% of the 33,000,000 adult workforce. Somehow, cars are afforded, irrespective of which country takes the profit.

 

[jon0844]

The Citroën e-C3 will retail for £21,990.

The C3 is already a ridiculously popular and successful car, and I expect this is going to revolutionise the EV market. No brad snobbery to affect it (Dacia Spring), and it's a car built in Europe by a European brand so will have better optics now everyone seems to be against China.

I would hope this is going to be between £160-£200 on a lease, and with home charging that's going to be cheaper in the long run than the cheaper petrol model.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Citroën e-C3 will retail for £21,990.

The C3 is already a ridiculously popular and successful car, and I expect this is going to revolutionise the EV market. No brad snobbery to affect it (Dacia Spring), and it's a car built in Europe by a European brand so will have better optics now everyone seems to be against China.

I would hope this is going to be between £160-£200 on a lease, and with home charging that's going to be cheaper in the long run than the cheaper petrol model.

Still only suitable for those who can charge at home though. For all the talk of solutions to the issue of home charging for those who have to use on-street parking such as charger ports installed on lamp-posts, I've yet to see any of these solutions materialise.

Though more affordable EVs (which don't have the China problem) are still a step in the right direction I suppose, even if they're not yet suitable for every use case. Whilst I remain sceptical of the EV push, it ceasing to be solely the preserve of the wealthy is at least something.