UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[DelW]

You also forget to mention the cost of tyres, they are significantly more expensive than for ICE cars because of the heavy batteries, plus they wear a lot faster.

I'm not clear how that's supposed to work? Tyres are tyres, there aren't separate categories of "tyres for EVs" and "tyres for petrol cars". Larger or higher-speed tyres are more expensive, so tyres for a diesel Range Rover or a petrol V8 will naturally be more expensive than for a small or middle sized EV. The rate of wear depends mainly on how the car is driven.

Servicing is also significantly more expensive than an ICE, despite being simpler mechanically. Most independent garages do not touch EVs because they are not trained to deal with high voltages.

My PHEV has been in for servicing today (first major service at four years old). The petrol motor needed new oil, filters and spark plugs. The electric motor needed ... nothing at all.
Regenerative braking also reduces brake pad wear - my (still original) pads were reported as 30% worn.

 

[trebor79]

From this website aimed ar the car retailer, BEVs are being bought by business and not by private buyers.
BEV car sales
Honda are struggling to sell the BEV e:Nvy SUV, a £45000 vehicle, dealers have low-mileage examples for sale at £29000 to £35000 as per the weblink

Honda e:nvy BEV cars for sale

It's an overpriced lowish range EV, hardly surprising it isn't shifting.

This will happen. I thought it would be during the typical 3-5 years I will keep my present car (bought it in mid 2020) but I'm sure it will not, I think one more petrol ICE then it might be. In particular there need to be a LOT more public chargers and they need to be a LOT more reliable and available. For universal EV use we will need probably about 20-30% of spaces with fast chargers at places like motorway services, particularly key ones like Norton Canes, not just the typical 10-20 bays or so.

Maybe. But in the here and now there is plenty of taps charger provision and installations are still increasing exponentially. The issues of 3 years ago are gone.
I drive to north Lincs on Monday stayed overnight in Lincoln and then more driving before coming home Tuesday.
I knew I would need a charge. I was spoiled for choice. Rapid chargers at the place I went for lunch. Rapid chargers in the hotel car park. 7kW AC chargers in the 1970s multistorey next door. I chose the multistory as both the parking and power was cheaper than the hotel offering, and speed does t matter when I'm asleep.
I've not queued for a charger or struggled to find a convenient one at all. Bear in mind I'm doing 1,000 miles a week sometimes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2024 ==

You also forget to mention the cost of tyres, they are significantly more expensive than for ICE cars because of the heavy batteries, plus they wear a lot faster.

Nope. Nonsense on both counts. They actually last longer on an EV in my experience.

Servicing is also significantly more expensive than an ICE, despite being simpler mechanically. Most independent garages do not touch EVs because they are not trained to deal with high voltages.

Hahahaha! That's funny. The only servicing I did on my Tesla in 30,000 miles this past 12 months is 2 tyres and a set of wiper blades. Just sailed through it's MOT.
Our Kia Niro is nearly 2 years old, done 18,000 and not been to the garage yet.

If I was buying a new car today, the figures so not stack up to buy an EV currently, you're paying a lot of money for an inferior car.

EV is better in every way. Othing at all could convince me to go back to ICE.

 

[GusB]

Genuine question for EV owners - if you're unable to charge at home, is it really horrendously expensive to charge at public charge points? How does it compare cost-wise with having to fuel up a car with an internal combustion engine?

I keep hearing this nonsense about not being able to charge at home, but I'm unable to refuel my petrol car at home. The village I live in has been devoid of petrol pumps for a good 20 years or thereabouts, so it's a good 12-14 mile round trip to one of the nearby towns. If I had an EV, I'd be able to drive less than half a mile to the nearest charging point, park it up, go for a walk and come back to find it ready to go.

As far as range-anxiety goes I'm lucky in that there are 24-hour filling stations nearby, but there have been a few occasions where I've been out for a random country drive and miscalculated how much juice I'd need to get home; EV chargers don't close at 7pm!

 

[skyhigh]

Servicing is also significantly more expensive than an ICE, despite being simpler mechanically.

That is utter rubbish. My car is due a service every 2 years, the main dealer charges £150 for that.

Find me a petrol car that a main dealer will service for £75 a year.

Most independent garages do not touch EVs because they are not trained to deal with high voltages.

Also rubbish. They won't do stuff connected to the high voltage system. But every local garage I've tried over the past 5 years of owning an EV have been happy to quote for work on brakes/suspension etc and the quotes have been comparable to a petrol car.

You also forget to mention the cost of tyres, they are significantly more expensive than for ICE cars because of the heavy batteries

Blackcircles quote £144 for a single Michelin CrossClimate 2 for my last EV fully fitted. Compared to my last petrol car, for the same type of tyre they charge...... £144. Cheaper brands are also similar prices. So that's also rubbish.

And I managed 3 years and roughly 35k on the original tyres (until I sold the car) so tyre wear is yet another myth.

 

[Harpers Tate]

You also forget to mention the cost of tyres, they are significantly more expensive than for ICE cars because of the heavy batteries, plus they wear a lot faster.

Servicing is also significantly more expensive than an ICE, despite being simpler mechanically. Most independent garages do not touch EVs because they are not trained to deal with high voltages.

My car is at 36000 miles and still running on the original tyres. That's as good as any previous car I have had.
The main dealer servicing costs for my current car, each of which includes a years roadside and at home recovery service, (= AA etc.) have been:
4: £209.69
3: £97
2: £136.44
1: £51

Genuine question for EV owners - if you're unable to charge at home, is it really horrendously expensive to charge at public charge points? How does it compare cost-wise with having to fuel up a car with an internal combustion engine?

I think I covered that earlier. At 70p/kWh (roadside, likely average, which is expensive) and comparing to the national average petrol price (which is what it is and there is little anyone can do about it); with an EV that will do 3.5 miles per kWh, that equates to 20p/mile which equates to around 34mpg. So very much the same ballpark, IF you can only use these expensive roadside chargers. As I say, depending on each person's circumstances, it's quite possible to buy electric fuel at 1/10 of that rate. You can't do that at all with petrol.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I keep hearing this nonsense about not being able to charge at home, but I'm unable to refuel my petrol car at home. The village I live in has been devoid of petrol pumps for a good 20 years or thereabouts, so it's a good 12-14 mile round trip to one of the nearby towns. If I had an EV, I'd be able to drive less than half a mile to the nearest charging point, park it up, go for a walk and come back to find it ready to go.

One thing I find really strange is why quite a lot of ICE drivers - and a lot of them do - make special trips, particularly ones of that sort of length, to fuel their car, burning fuel to do so.

Surely you fuel it during a journey when you pass a suitable fuel station, e.g. when you go to Tesco (other supermarkets with petrol stations are available) or on the way back from a trip?

 

[GLC]

Genuine question for EV owners - if you're unable to charge at home, is it really horrendously expensive to charge at public charge points? How does it compare cost-wise with having to fuel up a car with an internal combustion engine?

I can't charge at home, within a 5 min drive of my house, I have:

4x Fast (22kW) charger - CPS 40p/kWh, Overstay fee for sessions over 3 hours, parking charge applies at £3.20 per hour
1x Rapid (50kW) charger - Podpoint 59p/kWh (Normally only hit 30kW on this one)
1x Rapid (50kW) charger - Geniepoint 79p/kWh
6x Rapid (150kW) charger - bp Pulse 85p/kWh

The BP one is by far and away the most reliable, in terms of both availability and chargers not being broken, but it's also the most expensive charger.

My car is averaging a little under 4 miles per kWh, I'll call it 4 for easy maths. Most expensive charger is 89p, across 4 miles that's 22.25 pence per mile.

1 litre of petrol costs ~£1.50 currently. Let's say an economical petrol will do 40mpg, 4.54 litres in a gallon, so that gives you that gives you 17p per mile. 30 mpg would give you 22.7 pence per mile.

Overall, the price is ok with expensive rapid charging. Tesla are slowly opening their rapid chargers to non-Teslas, and are charging around 55p/kWh, that'll make a big difference for my trips.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1 litre of petrol costs ~£1.50 currently. Let's say an economical petrol will do 40mpg, 4.54 litres in a gallon, so that gives you that gives you 17p per mile. 30 mpg would give you 22.7 pence per mile.

Most newer small/medium cars do 40-50mpg. Some diesels (though diesel costs more) do 60. That blows those figures out of the air, making ICE much cheaper.

And don't forget, ICE is taxed to the hilt, EV is taxed only as VAT on initial purchase and presumably on the charging.

Overall, the price is ok with expensive rapid charging.

To me, those figures questionably justify that!

 

[PeterC]

Most newer small/medium cars do 40-50mpg. Some diesels (though diesel costs more) do 60. That blows those figures out of the air, making ICE much cheaper.

And don't forget, ICE is taxed to the hilt, EV is taxed only as VAT on initial purchase and presumably on the charging.



To me, those figures questionably justify that!

I currently get just shy of 44mpg on my 7 year old ICE. Long journeys come out at between 48 and 51.

 

[jon0844]

For people doing mostly short runs, an EV doesn't have an engine that doesn't get to full efficiency until warm - maybe knocking off (IME) 10+ mpg.

The problem is of course that for low mileages, the higher cost of an EV is hard to overcome. However those cheaper EVs (and cheaper second hand ones) will change all that.

Paying 85p per kWh also changes the dynamics and if you look at the wholesale rates of electricity and wonder why these operators don't adjust rates throughout the door (some, like Tesla Super chargers do) then it smacks of profiteering. Sure there's 20% VAT, but 85p when the electricity is nearer 3 or 4p?

Competition should fix this, but petrol stations seem very happy to make electricity similar to petrol and diesel pricing, and pocket more profit in the process.

I'm also a bit disappointed that people will be expected to pay hefty premiums for faster charging. Again, yes, there's a cost to build the site, but hopefully prices will fall if companies truly compete and don't just form effective cartels as is already the case with oil prices.

 

[PeterC]

I'm also a bit disappointed that people will be expected to pay hefty premiums for faster charging. Again, yes, there's a cost to build the site, but hopefully prices will fall if companies truly compete and don't just form effective cartels as is already the case with oil prices.

The faster the charger the higher the potential throughput. There seems to be a pretty hefty premium for speed when the site operator can actually sell more kW per hour.

 

[renegademaster]

mild hybrid" where all the energy is from petrol are no more efficient than a petrol car on a long run. Absolute waste of resources.

Except they get much better mpg than a pure petrol car the same size

 

[Noddy]

Genuine question for EV owners - if you're unable to charge at home, is it really horrendously expensive to charge at public charge points? How does it compare cost-wise with having to fuel up a car with an internal combustion engine?

I keep hearing this nonsense about not being able to charge at home, but I'm unable to refuel my petrol car at home. The village I live in has been devoid of petrol pumps for a good 20 years or thereabouts, so it's a good 12-14 mile round trip to one of the nearby towns. If I had an EV, I'd be able to drive less than half a mile to the nearest charging point, park it up, go for a walk and come back to find it ready to go.

As far as range-anxiety goes I'm lucky in that there are 24-hour filling stations nearby, but there have been a few occasions where I've been out for a random country drive and miscalculated how much juice I'd need to get home; EV chargers don't close at 7pm!

The answer is it depends (unfortunately). In general public charging is far more expensive-I pay 7.5p at home, when I use public charging it’s typically in the range of 60-75p (ish). However, there are exceptions, for example there are still a few free chargers near me (inevitably being used by plug in hybrids), and I know some local businesses offer cheap charging in the 20-30p range as they are on various charging apps but I think you need to be an employee or visitor to use them. To further complicate things there are subscription services as well-you pay a monthly fee to get reduced charging which is likely to be a sensible route to go if you are completely reliant on the public network. No one should be paying 85p unless you are absolutely desperate-just avoid networks charging that much.

But as an example taking my Cupra Born which (real world) averages 3.5kwh in winter and 4.5 in summer.

Winter at 3.5kwh:

7.5p (home-no VAT) = 2.15p per mile
28p (?private work (not mine)) = 8ppm
42p (Tesla open to all at Celtic Manor) = 12ppm
61p (Tesla open to all at Gloucester services) = 17.4ppm
64p (Westmorland Charging-Tebay/Gloucester etc) = 18.3ppm
79p (Gridserve) = 22.6ppm

Summer at 4.5kwh:

7.5p (home-no VAT) = 1.7p per mile
28p (?private work (not mine)) = 6.2ppm
42p (Tesla open to all at Celtic Manor) = 12ppm
61p (Tesla open to all at Gloucester services) = 13.6ppm
64p (Westmorland Charging-Tebay/Gloucester etc) = 14.2ppm
79p (Gridserve) = 17.6ppm

So in summer even the expensive Gridserve (over 10 times what I pay at home) is still comparable with a 40mpg car but in winter less so (and I know you’re in Scotland ). However what this pricing highlights is unfairness of home vs public charging. There is a campaign to reduce VAT on public charging which would make things slightly more equitable but unfortunately the current government appear completely uninterested.

 

[Energy]

So in summer even the expensive Gridserve (over 10 times what I pay at home) is still comparable with a 40mpg car but in winter less so (and I know you’re in Scotland ). However what this pricing highlights is unfairness of home vs public charging. There is a campaign to reduce VAT on public charging which would make things slightly more equitable but unfortunately the current government appear completely uninterested.

I don't think it is VAT, it's just profiteering. The RAC has the difference between wholesale and retail at about 35p (that covers distribution, the forecourt, profit, VAT, etc. but not fuel duty). Distribution costs will be much lower so 55p per kwh is quite reasonable. The 80+p operators are charging that much because they can.

Forcing charging operators to have price signs like Petrol Stations would help (some already do), currently, you only find out the price via an app or when you turn up so it's difficult to compare.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Most newer small/medium cars do 40-50mpg.

I currently get just shy of 44mpg on my 7 year old ICE.

Yes, and most of us don't have to pay 85p/unit for our EV fuel. Even if there is no home charging, GLC has a 59p unit in his list. And for home charging (for those of us who can) down to 6.9p/unit. Try getting your petrol for 1/10 the average pump price.

Or - to put it another way, as of the morning of 13 May last, my current car's odometer read 34539 and my total fuel cost since new adds up to £585.44. 1.7p/mile.

 

[Noddy]

I don't think it is VAT, it's just profiteering. The RAC has the difference between wholesale and retail at about 35p (that covers distribution, the forecourt, profit, VAT, etc. but not fuel duty). Distribution costs will be much lower so 55p per kwh is quite reasonable. The 80+p operators are charging that much because they can.

Forcing charging operators to have price signs like Petrol Stations would help (some already do), currently, you only find out the price via an app or when you turn up so it's difficult to compare.

Does the RAC costs also include the investment/costs associated designing, building and getting the grid connections for the charging hubs?

Although it wouldn’t bring pricing down to the same level removing VAT from public charging would bring EV driving costs closer to petrol, and more importantly would be fairer… Typically houses with drives are more expensive, while typically those without drives are less expensive. Why should better off folk who can afford more expensive homes have the luxury of not paying VAT, while those who can’t afford homes with drives have it to pay VAT?

 

[Energy]

Does the RAC costs also include the investment/costs associated designing, building and getting the grid connections for the charging hubs?

No, its just about the price customers pay. The investment in building the petrol pumps will be part of the charge above wholesale.

Although it wouldn’t bring pricing down to the same level removing VAT from public charging would bring EV driving costs closer to petrol, and more importantly would be fairer…

They'd get a lot of criticism for EV charging being 5% while petrol/diesel has fuel duty and full VAT.

Typically houses with drives are more expensive, while typically those without drives are less expensive. Why should better off folk who can afford more expensive homes have the luxury of not paying VAT, while those who can’t afford homes with drives have it to pay VAT?

I can see AC chargers (which people without driveways would typically use) getting the lower 5% VAT rate, but not fast chargers.

Alternatively, as wind energy reduces the price of electricity VAT increases on all electricity...

 

[Bletchleyite]

So in summer even the expensive Gridserve (over 10 times what I pay at home) is still comparable with a 40mpg car but in winter less so (and I know you’re in Scotland ). However what this pricing highlights is unfairness of home vs public charging. There is a campaign to reduce VAT on public charging which would make things slightly more equitable but unfortunately the current government appear completely uninterested.

But:

(a) Most cars now do better than 40mpg.
(b) That's near enough untaxed (bar VAT). When, and it is when, other road-use taxations start applying to EVs, that'll make them *substantially* costlier.

Gridserve are taking the absolute proverbial there - perhaps we should give them the LNER award for excessive prices!

 

[GLC]

To me, those figures questionably justify that!

Something wrote and then deleted initially, was that I am happy to pay more, as I love how an EV drives, and I am happy to pay more to drive a lower emission vehicle. I didn’t get an EV to save money. Of course I wish public charging was not up to 11x the price of the best home charging deal, but given that even as a worst case, the price is comparable to an normal ICE car the price doesn’t bother me. It’s the same as when I used to have a V8 car, the price of petrol didn’t phase me because it was the price of entry to own that kind of car.

 

[Energy]

(b) That's near enough untaxed (bar VAT). When, and it is when, other road-use taxations start applying to EVs, that'll make them *substantially* costlier.

Road pricing would be incredibly unpopular, a slight increase in vehicle exercise duty could cover road expenditure but a lot of other government expenditure is funded by fuel duty.

I can see fuel duty being replaced by a sharp increase in electricity VAT. A reform of electricity pricing is needed now cheap green electricity is coming online. Ideally, the decrease in the wholesale cost of electricity from cheap wind would counteract the tax increase.

 

[Krokodil]

I visited Rhug Estate farm shop and café along the A5 last weekend. Many chargers provided, it's a great way of getting people buying bison burgers.

 

[Noddy]

But:

(a) Most cars now do better than 40mpg.
(b) That's near enough untaxed (bar VAT). When, and it is when, other road-use taxations start applying to EVs, that'll make them *substantially* costlier.

Gridserve are taking the absolute proverbial there - perhaps we should give them the LNER award for excessive prices!

A) Yep completely agree if paying top tier prices. If you can get cheaper pricing (which you can-eg Tesla) it’ll be competitive with cars doing 50-60mpg. I would also point out the quoted mpg figures of new cars are WLTP figures, which everyone knows need to be taken with a massive pinch of salt!
B) I’m not sure what other road-use taxations could be applied to EVs? Taxing public charging with an ‘EV fuel duty’ would just increase the disparity between those with access home charging and those without which would be completely unfair-we need to close this gap, not widen it. There would be no way to monitor home charging, and personally I would just extend our solar array to take more of it off grid (ie free). If you’re talking about some sort of mileage charging/tolling (which I would support as it would be fairer), these would surely apply to all vehicles regardless of fuel source?

 

[PeterC]

Yes, and most of us don't have to pay 85p/unit for our EV fuel. Even if there is no home charging, GLC has a 59p unit in his list. And for home charging (for those of us who can) down to 6.9p/unit. Try getting your petrol for 1/10 the average pump price.

Or - to put it another way, as of the morning of 13 May last, my current car's odometer read 34539 and my total fuel cost since new adds up to £585.44. 1.7p/mile.

And your point is? You are replying to a post pointing out that previous comparisons were using stupidly low MPG figure for ICE vehicles.

 

[jon0844]

And your point is? You are replying to a post pointing out that previous comparisons were using stupidly low MPG figure for ICE vehicles.

Since I got my (petrol) car, I've averaged 38.7mpg. The combined figure from the manufacturer is just over 60mpg.

 

[Harpers Tate]

And your point is? You are replying to a post pointing out that previous comparisons were using stupidly low MPG figure for ICE vehicles.

My point is that there are many factors on both sides. One can highlight the mpg figure, fine. But the other side is that the comparision being cited against is also similarly flawed. No-one should seek out a single factor to "sell" their position. As with all things - the total picture is much, much broader and only the broadest array of factors can be used to make a valid comparison.

 

[Roast Veg]

Forcing charging operators to have price signs like Petrol Stations would help (some already do), currently, you only find out the price via an app or when you turn up so it's difficult to compare.

This is coming. Some US locations have already mandated it for new installations, and it's likely to become standard on almost all public chargers over time.

The extra expense for DC public charging can be chalked up in part to the extra expense of the charger and installation - there's still a lot of R&D to be paid off there. I'd expect public charging costs to rise at a lower rate than general energy costs for a few years as competition sets in.

 

[renegademaster]

The average driving distance per day is 18 miles meaning on average an EV will need to be charged is between once a week or once every 10 days depending on model.

If people only cared about their "average" one person commute they'd buy mopeds. But they like to do stuff at the weekend too.

 

[jon0844]

If people only cared about their "average" one person commute they'd buy mopeds. But they like to do stuff at the weekend too.

Or e-bikes (legal ones, I might add). Use the car when you have to, not just because it's there. EVs are cheaper to run, service and maintain - but still take up the same amount of space on the roads.

I know people always convince themselves that it makes sense to use a car if you're paying insurance, servicing and so on anyway - but keeping low mileages is actually a good thing, especially for an EV. It means less charge cycles, and servicing is near enough unnecessary so you are letting your tyres last longer. When it comes to selling, lower mileage helps - and if leasing you may want to keep the mileage down too.

 

[Ken H]

Or e-bikes (legal ones, I might add). Use the car when you have to, not just because it's there. EVs are cheaper to run, service and maintain - but still take up the same amount of space on the roads.

I know people always convince themselves that it makes sense to use a car if you're paying insurance, servicing and so on anyway - but keeping low mileages is actually a good thing, especially for an EV. It means less charge cycles, and servicing is near enough unnecessary so you are letting your tyres last longer. When it comes to selling, lower mileage helps - and if leasing you may want to keep the mileage down too.

so spend £60K on a car then not use it. Hmmm
I will stick with my 10 plate pug diesel ta. I do little mileage anyway.

 

[GusB]

Overall, the price is ok with expensive rapid charging. Tesla are slowly opening their rapid chargers to non-Teslas, and are charging around 55p/kWh, that'll make a big difference for my trips.

The answer is it depends (unfortunately). In general public charging is far more expensive-I pay 7.5p at home, when I use public charging it’s typically in the range of 60-75p (ish). However, there are exceptions, for example there are still a few free chargers near me (inevitably being used by plug in hybrids), and I know some local businesses offer cheap charging in the 20-30p range as they are on various charging apps but I think you need to be an employee or visitor to use them. To further complicate things there are subscription services as well-you pay a monthly fee to get reduced charging which is likely to be a sensible route to go if you are completely reliant on the public network. No one should be paying 85p unless you are absolutely desperate-just avoid networks charging that much.

Thanks for your responses. I've just looked up my local charging point on chargeplacescotland.org; it would seem that the 56p per kW/h isn't overly expensive. It has 3 connectors (50kW CCS and CHAdeMO and a 22kW Type 2).

While I'm not in a position to be able to replace my car at the moment, it's handy to know that I could run an EV using public chargers if I wanted to. Charging at home isn't currently possible as I live in a cul-de-sac with no private driveway..