How can overcrowding on trains from Southampton Central be appreciated?

[yorksrob]

There were back in the 'seventies and 'eighties when we were a lad(s)....hundreds of 8-SUB lash-ups lying around at Wimbledon, Clapham Yard, Strawberry Hill, etc. That were then....but now is now! Is there such a thing as peak time now?

Well, quite.

Although even now, I'd have thought that if there aren't a few spare 455's laying around, the DfT's rolling stock purge must have gone too far.

 

[pompeyfan]

Well, quite.

Although even now, I'd have thought that if there aren't a few spare 455's laying around, the DfT's rolling stock purge must have gone too far.

455s aren’t cleared in passenger service beyond Basingstoke IIRC, unless you’re referring to the rugby at Twickenham?

 

[yorksrob]

455s aren’t cleared in passenger service beyond Basingstoke IIRC, unless you’re referring to the rugby at Twickenham?

Seems a bit of an oversight, if you're wanting flexibility.

I've read about 4SUB's making it down there on passenger service on occasions.

 

[pompeyfan]

Seems a bit of an oversight, if you're wanting flexibility.

I've read about 4SUB's making it down there on passenger service on occasions.

I believe they’re not cleared due to lack of toilets, you’d also have relatively small pool of crew to pick from that sign both route and traction, unless you’re going to start piloting crews, and where do you get these extra crews from? Do you build lots of spares into the depot establishment or do you cross your fingers and hope people want to work rest days? Even with a significant incentive many would decline if they knew they’d be working a football train.

 

[Snow1964]

Is it just me, or is the amended thread title confusing

overcrowding being appreciated (why not alleviated)

 

[LowLevel]

Seems a bit of an oversight, if you're wanting flexibility.

I've read about 4SUB's making it down there on passenger service on occasions.

If you were going to use 455s in this fashion it seems more sensible to displace 450s from some of their suburban workings to do the longer distance extra stuff - not sure a 75mph bogless suburban train is likely to end up in a particularly good state otherwise

 

[nw1]

Yet this was at the same time that the VSOE Pullman set had been brought into service and made regular premium trips down to Brockenhurst (for Beaulieu) - not a BR initiative, of course.

Ah so that would explain why I saw Pullman carriages pass through Woking occasionally in the mid-80s.

 

[yorksrob]

If you were going to use 455s in this fashion it seems more sensible to displace 450s from some of their suburban workings to do the longer distance extra stuff - not sure a 75mph bogless suburban train is likely to end up in a particularly good state otherwise

If that's an option, then yes.

 

[nw1]

There were back in the 'seventies and 'eighties when we were a lad(s)....hundreds of 8-SUB lash-ups lying around at Wimbledon, Clapham Yard, Strawberry Hill, etc. That were then....but now is now! Is there such a thing as peak time now?

I think there is, but SWR haven't cottoned on to it.

(Southeastern, Greater Anglia, Chiltern and LNWR have, though - all have significant numbers of peak extras).

Seriously, SWR do appear to have a particularly chronic stock shortage. Perhaps the arrival of the 701s will mean more stock available for both cruise specials and peak extras.

 

[30907]

I see a number of problems with running a cruise special.

One is luggage space, because cruise passengers seem to take a lot of baggage, judging by my cruising relatives - unless you can get hold of a DVT (Chiltern? don't they have a set spare at weekends? But who would crew it?).
Second is destination - if you go to Waterloo (or even Victoria using P1/2) then what? The vast majority will, I assume, be heading home to the leafier suburbs inside the M25 - or dispersing across the country - rather than heading for Central London.
Third is ambience - though Chiltern would be a solution there too!

I hink the best that could be hoped for would be a standby 8×450, though you've still got to path it, crew it and pay for it. Sorry to be a pessimist.

(A Chiltern set to Birmingham might also be worth exploring, but most ofcthe same issues arise....)

 

[Anonymous10]

I see a number of problems with running a cruise special.

One is luggage space, because cruise passengers seem to take a lot of baggage, judging by my cruising relatives - unless you can get hold of a DVT (Chiltern? don't they have a set spare at weekends? But who would crew it?).
Second is destination - if you go to Waterloo (or even Victoria using P1/2) then what? The vast majority will, I assume, be heading home to the leafier suburbs inside the M25 - or dispersing across the country - rather than heading for Central London.
Third is ambience - though Chiltern would be a solution there too!

I hink the best that could be hoped for would be a standby 8×450, though you've still got to path it, crew it and pay for it. Sorry to be a pessimist.

(A Chiltern set to Birmingham might also be worth exploring, but most ofcthe same issues arise....)

I would run trains to Reading and Bristol, they're good stations to accommodate for passengers dispersing all over the UK.

 

[Snow1964]

I would run trains to Reading and Bristol, they're good stations to accommodate for passengers dispersing all over the UK.

Not a bad idea if can find suitable stock.

With most cruise passengers leaving Southampton 9-10am and those heading to ships wanting to arrive around 12:30-14:00 wouldn't actually get much further unless had extra train for each direction. A suitably timed Old Oak add on would be appropriate when that opens.


However passengers with luggage not wanting to change trains in London is a market XC should really be able to clean up, with connections at Birmingham (and it doesn't need stops at Winchester, Basingstoke, Banbury etc. More like the old 1970s summer Saturday cross country extras that often only called at Oxford and used Reading avoiding line (but can now terminate at Southampton, the 1970s extras went to Poole or Weymouth)

Even though there are cruise ships about 4 days out of 7 (about same number of busy days as typical commuter operation) it's really sad that commuter operators can justify 4 morning and 4 return trains per week (most work 5th day, but fairly empty) but XC can't figure it out.

 

[dcd]

There was indeed. In The Intercity Story - 1964-2012 there is mention of 'Cruise Saver Travel', with a picture of DRS' 47832 on a Southampton Docks-Glasgow Central working on 2 January 2009.

The fundamental problems with cruise traffic are that it is irregular, diffuse (with passengers converging or dispersing from all over the country), involves loads of luggage and trains cannot generally get alongside the terminals. A market segment that road coaches are generally far more suited to handle (once you get beyond the private car/taxi size of group).

If I remember correctly, these stopped after one was delayed so much travelling to Southampton that the passengers literally missed the boat. It was rather expensive to get the passengers to the boat by other means.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it just me, or is the amended thread title confusing

overcrowding being appreciated (why not alleviated)

No, I’d have thought alleviated was exactly the right word in the thread context.

 

[30907]

With most cruise passengers leaving Southampton 9-10am and those heading to ships wanting to arrive around 12:30-14:00 wouldn't actually get much further unless had extra train for each direction. A suitably timed Old Oak add on would be appropriate when that opens.....

Even though there are cruise ships about 4 days out of 7 (about same number of busy days as typical commuter operation) it's really sad that commuter operators can justify 4 morning and 4 return trains per week (most work 5th day, but fairly empty) but XC can't figure it out.

Actually XC have probably worked out, as you have, that running two trains (one each way) to provide a cruise connection would be an inefficient use of resources (not they have them to spare anyway), and running just Soton to Reading and back wouldn't be much better.
It would be like the Ocean Liner sets that sat around in Clapham Yard for days at a time back in the day - or the 50s summer Saturday trains that did one return trip a fortnight.
At least commuter operators get a decent return trip out of their stock.

 

[Meerkat]

Has anyone (ie the army of consultants for hire) ever asked the cruise companies for the passenger source data - ie a map of where the passengers live?
That would be most useful before considering any ideas for transporting them.
There is also a vast difference between the number of cruise passengers needed (in addition to usuals) to crush load a voyager and the number needed to make a one way special train viable.
Personally I wouldn’t risk a train unless I was going down the night before departure, and definitely wouldn’t risk a special timetabled to arrive within a couple of hours of departure.

 

[Topological]

Presumably, the biggest issue is coming off the boat since then the full set of passengers want to leave at similar times (staggered arrival motivations are explained well in previous posts, such as not wanting to risk missing the cruise if the special train gets delayed).

In that case the XC solution appears to be to run a double voyager on an appropriate Newcastle-Reading diagram and split at Reading to allow half to work back on the normal diagram. The unit which has split from the double can then go to Southampton to become the special and, potentially, then avoid Reading on its way north since all other diagrams remain unaffected.

 

[30907]

Presumably, the biggest issue is coming off the boat since then the full set of passengers want to leave at similar times (staggered arrival motivations are explained well in previous posts, such as not wanting to risk missing the cruise if the special train gets delayed).

I would imagine so.

In that case the XC solution appears to be to run a double voyager on an appropriate Newcastle-Reading diagram and split at Reading to allow half to work back on the normal diagram. The unit which has split from the double can then go to Southampton to become the special and, potentially, then avoid Reading on its way north since all other diagrams remain unaffected.

But you are still running a round trip which only earns money one way.

 

[Topological]

I would imagine so.

But you are still running a round trip which only earns money one way.

Maybe, though the Reading to Southampton could be in service if the crewing allowed. I am not an expert in rosters so do not know if that would work.

 

[Energy]

In that case the XC solution appears to be to run a double voyager on an appropriate Newcastle-Reading diagram and split at Reading to allow half to work back on the normal diagram. The unit which has split from the double can then go to Southampton to become the special and, potentially, then avoid Reading on its way north since all other diagrams remain unaffected.

The difficult but not insurmountable bit with the Southampton special section is that XC doesn't have a driver depot at either Southampton or Reading. You'd need a driver from Bournemouth or Birmingham, which isn't a particularly efficient way of staffing, though for a special it's not the end of the world.

 

[30907]

Maybe, though the Reading to Southampton could be in service if the crewing allowed. I am not an expert in rosters so do not know if that would work.

Yes, of course, but the extra revenue would be minimal as it duplicates existing trains.
On reflection, the most economical solution would be to divert a Newcastle-Reading and terminate another at Banbury (there is precedent!) - it would spoil the hourly timetable (assuming it were to be reinstated) but would XC be worried about that?

 

[6Gman]

To balanced the debate, all operators XC, SWR and GWR (and should include Southern as they also serve Southampton) know cruise ship schedules are booked about 2-3 years in advance.

They are even longer than UK timetable planning, so they already know the busy days for 2025 and part of 2026.

Quite honestly if the railway cannot strengthen a service or schedule a relief (or cruise special) with 2 years notice then you have to wonder if they are interested in carrying extra passengers comfortably.

It's not clear to me why they would rather let coach operators have the income and profit.

Why do you assume such rail traffic would be profitable?

 

[Snow1964]

Why do you assume such rail traffic would be profitable?

I guess the assumption is some trains in UK run fairly empty, so even if you cancelled a service train elsewhere to provide stock, having few hundred customers at about £30-80 per ticket is better revenue.

It is old bums on seats concept, if going to incur costs anyway, the more empty seats you fill, more profit you get

 

[Dr Hoo]

I guess the assumption is some trains in UK run fairly empty, so even if you cancelled a service train elsewhere to provide stock, having few hundred customers at about £30-80 per ticket is better revenue.

It is old bums on seats concept, if going to incur costs anyway, the more empty seats you fill, more profit you get

I thought that the whole of this thread was predicated on the problem that many relatively short trains operated by GWR and CrossCountry through Southampton are already busy, even 'full', with regular travellers and completely unsuitable for coping with 'lumpy' surges of cruise passengers (generally accompanied by lots of luggage) at particular times of day or days of the week.

Where are these 'fairly empty' non-London trains at Southampton of which you speak? Or which 'fairly empty' trains would you cancel on odd days to the week to release diesel stock and crews for Cruise Specials?

 

[ScotTrains]

I remember seeing the cruise saver trains departing Glasgow. I think they were hauled by DRS 47s/57's? and always seemed to be reasonably full. EWS/DB even converted a couple of Super BG vans for luggage and the Northern Belle BG was used on occasion. I seem to remember any unsold seats were also made available to the general public at a substantial discount. Here's an archive webpage advertising the train http://web.archive.org/web/20110817025006/http://www.cruisesavertravel.co.uk/train.html The unlimited luggage allowance is interesting, clearly luggage wasn't a problem on the trains.

On my last cruise I took Avanti train from Glasgow, then XC from Birmingham to Southampton. We had no problem in the pendolino (1st class) but we really struggled to get our 2 weeks worth of luggage into the little XC train as it was completely packed even in 1st class. The staff said this happens all the time.

With the cruise industry now much bigger and expected to grow substantially into the future (with more families and young people now cruising) surely there is a market for reintroducing the cruise trains. I don't think Cruisesavertravel are around anymore so perhaps one of the other cruise agents could charter the train, I'm sure the demand is there especially in the summer months. Taking just some of the cruise traffic off XC could make a huge difference.
At the same time, knowing you won't have to cram into a XC train could result in more cruisers opting for the train rather than flying/driving from various parts of the UK.

 

[Meerkat]

With the cruise industry now much bigger and expected to grow substantially into the future (with more families and young people now cruising) surely there is a market for reintroducing the cruise trains.

Where from though, and who covers the risk if the train fails to arrive on time?

 

[WesternLancer]

I was just working through possibly booking a cruise from Southampton in 2025 - this was with a carnival group brand.

I was being offered as an option with booking the choice from either:

- free parking at Southampton docks
- coach to / from Southampton (didn't make clear where from and as I would not be using it I did not study it further)
- a chunk of 'on board spending money' IIRC £150

So they have established this market with road coach providers. No idea what take up is.

 

[BayPaul]

I've managed a lot of cruise turnaround calls, and rail has unfortunately never been a significant part of the plan, although we always provided free shuttles to the nearest station.
The biggest disadvantages are the need to get a bus to the station, then a train, compared to a coach which can take passengers directly from the baggage hall to their home town.
Providing a station at the cruise terminal would solve this issue, but in Southampton there are 5 cruise terminals, quite well spaced around the docks, so a large number of services would be needed. Cruises do fairly frequently depart from one cruise terminal and arrive from another, so it would be awkward if only certain terminals were options.

Having 500+ passengers arriving / departing simultaneously would be a major challenge to passenger flow in the terminal, but not impossible to manage.

We operated from a number of regional ports, and saw Southampton as being the home port for the whole of the South of England, including most of London and the Midlands, with passengers coming from the whole area. Other lines without regional homeports have passengers arriving from the whole country.

In the summer, all 5 cruise terminals are typically busy on Saturdays and Sundays, with a decent number of calls throughout the week, so scheduling trains every weekend would be practical. You'd ideally want a departure around 9am, and an arrival around noon - not ideal for train utilisation. I guess an 11am arrival / departure might just work, but would be awkward for the onboard team as cabins need to be cleared and cleaned, though fly cruises do similar with planes and make it work. Ideally you'd need similar timings to both London and Birmingham at least and from multiple terminals.

A big challenge would be a delay to the train and the number of passengers impacted. A delay to the ship is rare enough to not be a major concern.

Cost wise, it would need to be at least as good as a coach option, and the train would need to be at least as comfortable as a top end coach, considering the amount of baggage needed, this may not be easy for standard rolling stock.

Another opportunity would be provision of shore excursions, especially to London, for ships using Southampton as a port of call. This is common in Warnemunde for tours to Berlin, but is pretty rare in the UK, though I believe Southeastern have occasionally done this from Dover. Again, it really needs to run from the dockside.

 

[Snow1964]

I was just working through possibly booking a cruise from Southampton in 2025 - this was with a carnival group brand.

I was being offered as an option with booking the choice from either:

- free parking at Southampton docks
- coach to / from Southampton (didn't make clear where from and as I would not be using it I did not study it further)
- a chunk of 'on board spending money' IIRC £150

So they have established this market with road coach providers. No idea what take up is.

You can book the services with Eavesway (they call it Cruise link). they have already specified the timetable, and allow you to book for 2025.

Single and return fares available (examples are
£150 return from Newcastle
£115 return from Leeds, Preston
£100 from Nottingham, Stoke on Trent

Eavesway Travel - Cruiselink, Private Hire and Executive Coaches

Luxury coach hire executive corporate coach travel and cruise passenger coaches to Southampton port

www.eaveswaytravel.com

Clearly XC (and other long distance) rail operators don't want to compete because they aren't prepared to let you book at same time as booking cruise. They simply wont allow you to book for 2025

As basic outline rail timetables tend to be determined 12-24 months in advance, and major line closures tend to be known about within rail industry on similar long lead time, not being able to sell tickets to one destination that can be reached by multiple routes is quite poor thinking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2024 ==

The biggest disadvantages are the need to get a bus to the station, then a train, compared to a coach which can take passengers directly from the baggage hall to their home town.

I would question home town bit, it appears many of these coach services go from motorway service stations, so going to have to travel to get to start point

 

[JonathanH]

Clearly XC (and other long distance) rail operators don't want to compete because they aren't prepared to let you book at same time as booking cruise. They simply wont allow you to book for 2025

It isn't wrong that those passengers go by coach though, and not by train. It may even make considerably more sense for them to do so, if that is the best way of coping with excess demand.