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How can overcrowding on trains from Southampton Central be appreciated?

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SECR263

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At 1115 today watched XC 5 car head to Man Pic. Full and standing not helped by cruise passengers with at least 3 cases per couple. A GWR 2 car trying to fit cruise passengers with luggage onto an already full train arriving at SOU heading West. Hardly a way to recruit repeat travel.

Tonight a back GWR pompy set had 4 coaches and empty, ironic.
 
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Anonymous10

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At 1115 today watched XC 5 car head to Man Pic. Full and standing not helped by cruise passengers with at least 3 cases per couple. A GWR 2 car trying to fit cruise passengers with luggage onto an already full train arriving at SOU heading West. Hardly a way to recruit repeat travel.

Tonight a back GWR pompy set had 4 coaches and empty, ironic.
Worth remembering those sets work a roughly 6 hour round trip, what was an empty train then could quite easily have been rush hour at Cardiff and Bristol.
 

DelW

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XC and GWR (and several other TOCs) are crippled by DfT's preference for parking trains (even newly rebuilt ones) in storage sidings around the country rather than using them to carry passengers.
 

Carlisle

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Or maybe worth considering running occasional Boat Trains for visiting cruise ships as they used to do not all that long ago from Southampton.
 
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Dr Hoo

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Or maybe worth considering running occasional Boat Trains for visiting cruise ships as they used to do not all that long ago from Southampton.
The wheels have been falling off this sort of operation for a very long time. Back in the mid-1980s (so almost 40 years ago) when I was working for BR’s South Western Division there were fewer cruise ships but we still had a semi-regular QE2 boat train at the Ocean Terminal in the Eastern Docks. A set of elderly Mark I carriages was kept in Clapham Yard and there was an even shabbier Reserve Set too. One evening there was a busy programme with both sets in use and I went to help out at the Terminal.
It was, apparently, nothing unusual that both sets had completely dead batteries having been left with the lights on after their previous trip, not properly cleaned, not tanked - so dry toilets. A complete disgrace. But such irregular workload was obviously hard for Clapham to resource. It wasn’t as if their ‘bread-and-butter’ sets were a jewel in the crown either.
Yet this was at the same time that the VSOE Pullman set had been brought into service and made regular premium trips down to Brockenhurst (for Beaulieu) - not a BR initiative, of course.
 

Kite159

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XC and GWR (and several other TOCs) are crippled by DfT's preference for parking trains (even newly rebuilt ones) in storage sidings around the country rather than using them to carry passengers.
And how would those parked up EMUs be of use to XC or GWR when they are running diesel trains?
 

DelW

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And how would those parked up EMUs be of use to XC or GWR when they are running diesel trains?
I was thinking of the 769/9s for GWR, which would (as intended) have released Turbos for use in the west. Also the remaining ex Avanti voyagers for XC, though I may be out of date with plans for those.
 

yorksrob

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The wheels have been falling off this sort of operation for a very long time. Back in the mid-1980s (so almost 40 years ago) when I was working for BR’s South Western Division there were fewer cruise ships but we still had a semi-regular QE2 boat train at the Ocean Terminal in the Eastern Docks. A set of elderly Mark I carriages was kept in Clapham Yard and there was an even shabbier Reserve Set too. One evening there was a busy programme with both sets in use and I went to help out at the Terminal.
It was, apparently, nothing unusual that both sets had completely dead batteries having been left with the lights on after their previous trip, not properly cleaned, not tanked - so dry toilets. A complete disgrace. But such irregular workload was obviously hard for Clapham to resource. It wasn’t as if their ‘bread-and-butter’ sets were a jewel in the crown either.
Yet this was at the same time that the VSOE Pullman set had been brought into service and made regular premium trips down to Brockenhurst (for Beaulieu) - not a BR initiative, of course.

The two charter TC's looked like just the sort of set that would be ideal for such traffic.
 

Carlisle

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The wheels have been falling off this sort of operation for a very long time. Back in the mid-1980s (so almost 40 years ago) when I was working for BR’s South Western Division there were fewer cruise ships but we still had a semi-regular QE2 boat train at the Ocean Terminal in the Eastern Docks.
Very interesting, I guess advocates of privatisation suggested a vibrant & competitive charter industry would serve all these types of markets in future :s
 

D6130

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Were there not regular boat train charters operated by West Coast from Scotland and the North of England to the Ocean Terminal in connection with cruise ship departures and arrivals a few years ago?
 

Dr Hoo

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Were there not regular boat train charters operated by West Coast from Scotland and the North of England to the Ocean Terminal in connection with cruise ship departures and arrivals a few years ago?
There was indeed. In The Intercity Story - 1964-2012 there is mention of 'Cruise Saver Travel', with a picture of DRS' 47832 on a Southampton Docks-Glasgow Central working on 2 January 2009.

The fundamental problems with cruise traffic are that it is irregular, diffuse (with passengers converging or dispersing from all over the country), involves loads of luggage and trains cannot generally get alongside the terminals. A market segment that road coaches are generally far more suited to handle (once you get beyond the private car/taxi size of group).
 

mrcheek

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Maybe we should blame the cruise industry.

After all, you can get a long distance train from A to B, then change for a local service to get you home to C.

Maybe the cruise ships should be running more local services to get people home!
 
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Even with my 75% discount I'd rather drive to Southampton than take the train. The thought of trying to get down there on XC fills me with dread.
 

12LDA28C

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Were there not regular boat train charters operated by West Coast from Scotland and the North of England to the Ocean Terminal in connection with cruise ship departures and arrivals a few years ago?

The Cruise Saver trains were operated by DRS, but evidently they couldn't make it work either. I guess the cruise companies / customers didn't want to pay for the train and it was cheaper to let people make their own way to Southampton.
 

Skiddaw

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I travel to Reading (from Penrith) fairly regularly to visit friends and I've long since given up on the XC route. Leaving aside the risk of missing the connection at Wolverhampton the XC trains are so jammer, particularly on the Sunday return trip, that it's pot luck if you can even squeeze yourself on the train. These days I head to/from Euston (on the occasions when Avanti are actually running any trains :)) and walk to Paddington. Much less hassle.
 

12LDA28C

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I travel to Reading (from Penrith) fairly regularly to visit friends and I've long since given up on the XC route. Leaving aside the risk of missing the connection at Wolverhampton the XC trains are so jammer, particularly on the Sunday return trip, that it's pot luck if you can even squeeze yourself on the train. These days I head to/from Euston (on the occasions when Avanti are actually running any trains :)) and walk to Paddington. Much less hassle.

You'll have the option to change at Milton Keynes and go via Oxford before long.
 

Nunners

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Even with my 75% discount I'd rather drive to Southampton than take the train. The thought of trying to get down there on XC fills me with dread.
You should see the traffic jams on days cruises leave before you say that! (And especially on Saturday if there's football as well)
 

theironroad

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I do think Southampton cruise terminal ( or whatever organisation represents all the cruise companies that use southampton) need to get together and approach SWR and XC about a couple of dedicated trains. Sunday mornings on Bournemouth to Waterloo trains are becoming a bit of a nightmare with hundreds waiting to board with multiple large items of lugagge. I'm told the cruise lines do stagger disembarkation but more needs to be done. SWR could have a 10 car available and ready on Platform 4 (adjacent to refurbed entrance) , crew diagrams to allow doors to be open well ahead of departure, with the agency staff which do seem to be provided at moment directing and helping people board the length of the train.

Tbh, train should probably be direct to Waterloo only.

Not sure how feasible the XC version would be tbh.

The current set up isn't great for non-cruise passengers and tbh a pretty dismal and stressful end for people leaving a relaxing cruise. The very wrong sort of welcome to, or welcome back to the UK.
 

PyrahnaRanger

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You'll have the option to change at Milton Keynes and go via Oxford before long.
I shall look forward to this - my company have an office at Radley, and I often visit a customer in Reading, bit journeys which I currently route via London rather than risk XC
 

Starmill

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I do think Southampton cruise terminal ( or whatever organisation represents all the cruise companies that use southampton) need to get together and approach SWR and XC about a couple of dedicated trains. Sunday mornings on Bournemouth to Waterloo trains are becoming a bit of a nightmare with hundreds waiting to board with multiple large items of lugagge. I'm told the cruise lines do stagger disembarkation but more needs to be done. SWR could have a 10 car available and ready on Platform 4 (adjacent to refurbed entrance) , crew diagrams to allow doors to be open well ahead of departure, with the agency staff which do seem to be provided at moment directing and helping people board the length of the train.

Tbh, train should probably be direct to Waterloo only.

Not sure how feasible the XC version would be tbh.

The current set up isn't great for non-cruise passengers and tbh a pretty dismal and stressful end for people leaving a relaxing cruise. The very wrong sort of welcome to, or welcome back to the UK.
To run an additional service, the cruise lines would effectively have to foot almost the whole bill for a driver and guard for a full shift, which is substantial, with a little on top for servicing and maintenance, and administration. Ideally the cruise passengers would then be entitled to the free transfer by SWR between London Waterloo and Southampton Central.
 

Snow1964

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Worth remembering those sets work a roughly 6 hour round trip, what was an empty train then could quite easily have been rush hour at Cardiff and Bristol.
Rush hour on a Saturday ?

As it happens arriving cruise ships tend to arrive around 6-7am and passengers with luggage make the trains busy around 08:30 to 10:30. The schedules are available and any operator can check to know if they will be busy


Saturday 18th May was a 5 ship day :
Iona (P&O). (capacity 5200 double, 6264 max)
Aurora (P&O). (capacity 1878 double, 1950 max)
Norwegian Star. (capacity 2348 double, 2813 max)
MSC Virtuosa (capacity 4842 double, 6334 max)
Mein Schiff 3 (TUI) visiting (not turnaround)

Of course any day where anything upto 17,000 are finishing their cruise, bound to be busy on trains mid morning. So putting on short formations on busy cruise turnaround days is madness.
 

Anonymous10

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Rush hour on a Saturday ?

As it happens arriving cruise ships tend to arrive around 6-7am and passengers with luggage make the trains busy around 08:30 to 10:30. The schedules are available and any operator can check to know if they will be busy


Saturday 18th May was a 5 ship day :
Iona (P&O). (capacity 5200 double, 6264 max)
Aurora (P&O). (capacity 1878 double, 1950 max)
Norwegian Star. (capacity 2348 double, 2813 max)
MSC Virtuosa (capacity 4842 double, 6334 max)
Mein Schiff 3 (TUI) visiting (not turnaround)

Of course any day where anything upto 17,000 are finishing their cruise, bound to be busy on trains mid morning. So putting on short formations on busy cruise turnaround days is madness.
I find that there isn't much of a difference when I travel through Cardiff so yes.
 

Grecian 1998

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XC have suffered overcrowding issues 363 days a year (excepting strike days and the COVID era) since 2002. It seems somewhat unlikely anyone at the DfT and the Treasury would decide to do something about it now because of cruise ship passengers.

XC are due to get 12 additional Voyagers, but it will take until at least next year to see the benefit. They are also removing calls over the summer at Winchester and Basingstoke, which might help cruise ship passengers heading north by diverting 'local' passengers to SWR.

GWR's stock shortages are also well documented, not helped by the fact they will probably lose the remaining short HSTs in December. Cardiff - Portsmouth services can be anywhere between 2-5 coaches. It is possible GWR might get the 175s as a short-term stopgap, although those in the know have indicated elsewhere on the forum they will be going to the SW, which would allow further 158s and 16xs to move onto the Portsmouth services.

I suspect the only way to improve luggage provision on SWR services would be to remove seats. Given those seats are still well-used on peak services between Tuesday and Thursday, that might just be a controversial move.
 

ComUtoR

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Of course any day where anything upto 17,000 are finishing their cruise, bound to be busy on trains mid morning. So putting on short formations on busy cruise turnaround days is madness.

How to you account for 17k potential passengers ? How many coaches is that and what are the pathways ? Do you account for 17k passengers or a percentage based on potential alternative travel options ? What about your regular passenger flows ?
 

D1537

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Of course any day where anything upto 17,000 are finishing their cruise, bound to be busy on trains mid morning. So putting on short formations on busy cruise turnaround days is madness.
As far as XC are concerned that's not a short formation, it's a normal one, which is probably why I've avoided their services (bar the odd HST) for the last 20 years.
 

Snow1964

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I do think Southampton cruise terminal ( or whatever organisation represents all the cruise companies that use southampton) need to get together and approach SWR and XC about a couple of dedicated trains.
The wheels have been falling off this sort of operation for a very long time. Back in the mid-1980s (so almost 40 years ago) when I was working for BR’s South Western Division there were fewer cruise ships but we still had a semi-regular QE2 boat train at the Ocean Terminal in the Eastern Docks.
Things have moved on since the days of boat trains, some of the cruise ships are now over 6000 berths at max capacity.

With upto 5 cruise terminals in use on same day, as has already been pointed out, can now get 10-15k passengers leaving and another 10-15k passengers joining on some days. (and occasional days like upcoming 15th June where nearer 20,000).

Even though there is staggered times, majority leave ships 8-10am and join 12 noon to 3pm. So clearly certain trains are going to be popular

You cannot assume everyone lives in London or the East, so clearly XC to Midlands and GWR services to South West and South Wales will also take traffic.

Logically with those peak passenger flow times extra trains would need to match these, but even if rail could pick up 10% of the traffic, on busy days could be handling upto 2000 passengers in and 2000 out. In terms of seats that is virtually same number (4000) as whole of XC class 220 fleet. So if rail wants the traffic it is going to have to provide some serious quantities of rolling stock.
 

WesternLancer

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The Cruise Saver trains were operated by DRS, but evidently they couldn't make it work either. I guess the cruise companies / customers didn't want to pay for the train and it was cheaper to let people make their own way to Southampton.
Yes. About 10 years ago I was offered either travel on this train or free parking at Southampton cruise terminal as part of cruise booking option. At the time neither suited my itinerary so I used a service train. Next time I took a cruise a few years later the train option had ceased running sadly.
 
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