Transport for Wales Class 230

[Lurcheroo]

That would be truly awesome wouldn’t it! High capacity for short hops & frequent stops just what they are made for!(well originally ) You never know the sea breeze might just be what’s needed to stop them overheating
Meanwhile back in reality let’s hope these fixes work to releases the 197 back to the mainlines.

Haha absolutely and that’s what most of the summer journeys are! Short hops like Talybont-Barmouth, llwyngrwil - Tywyn/Barmouth or Penychain to Pwllheli.
Although, 197’s are much more commuter style compared to 158’s and with 4 coach services would be great for handling the summer crowds.

But yeah, having 230’s actually run on the bidstons would be a big help to preventing overcrowding elsewhere

 

[Northerngirl]

Realtime Trains | 2F50 0744 Wrexham Central to Bidston | 20/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 2F50 0744 departure from Wrexham Central to Bidston on 20/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This just passed me, looked very like a 153, have the 230s given in today or is my eyesight that bad

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Realtime Trains | 2F50 0744 Wrexham Central to Bidston | 20/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 2F50 0744 departure from Wrexham Central to Bidston on 20/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This just passed me, looked very like a 153, have the 230s given in today or is my eyesight that bad

It came from Birkenhead North so must be a 230.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where has the TFW 230 disappeared to? Looks like everyone is fed up with them now?

One scurrilous rumour has it they are all appearing in a special feature-length cartoon based on the "Thomas the Tank Engine" series with all five being given "special names".....

 

[Tony2]

Realtime Trains | 2F50 0744 Wrexham Central to Bidston | 20/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 2F50 0744 departure from Wrexham Central to Bidston on 20/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This just passed me, looked very like a 153, have the 230s given in today or is my eyesight that bad

Occasionally the allocations are input late, that working is now showing as 230007.

 

[Jumpin]

Hi, does anyone know where 230006 is, I've been looking for this unit for a few years now but have had no luck in tracing it's whereabouts.

 

[Benjwri]

I believe it is stored at Birkenhead North TMD.

 

[Jumpin]

thanks, it's not outside the depot, and i have looked at the inside when the doors have been opened but can't see it inside either, unless it's tucked away in a dark gloomy corner somewhere.

 

[childwallblues]

Sometimes it is moved outside. I have seen it by the washer a couple of times. Rumour is that it is slowly being put back together but the depot is currently busy disposing of the last 507s.

 

[Invincible]

Service improvements on the Wrexham - Bidston line

Targeted improvements on a north Wales railway line have been reaping huge benefits for rail customers.

news.tfw.wales

An article by TFW about the serious improvement in reliability of services on the Wrexham - Bidston line.
Still only 1 out of 3 diagrams is running as a 230 though.

Interestingly they state lower down in the article that engineers have been working to improve the class 230’s reliability and there is a funded plan in place to make changes which are expected to improve reliability further later this year.

Maybe we will see a consistent 30 minute service worked only by class 230’s, Maybe we won’t. I suppose only time will tell.

"with a funded plan in place to make changes which are expected to improve reliability further later this year. We have also been able to introduce the new Class 197 trains to the line, working in tandem with the Class 230 to ease the pressure."
One month on in the pollen season, on a quick look at RTT, looks like the 230s have been working OK with no clogged radiators alongside the 197s , now to ensure the batteries and engines do not overheat with the warmer weather.

 

[Lurcheroo]

"with a funded plan in place to make changes which are expected to improve reliability further later this year. We have also been able to introduce the new Class 197 trains to the line, working in tandem with the Class 230 to ease the pressure."
One month on in the pollen season, on a quick look at RTT, looks like the 230s have been working OK with no clogged radiators alongside the 197s , now to ensure the batteries and engines do not overheat with the warmer weather.

I believe they’re planning an additional swap to ensure no problems.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Correct the 230 has another swap now during the day so two swaps at Bidston around 1100 and 1530, so the one diagram is split into 3 parts one 230 does the first couple of trips then goes back to depot and another replaces it for a couple of trips then either the original unit comes back out after a cool down and presumably a check of radiators or whatever or a new one comes out if there’s one available. Meanwhile the 197s are plodding up and down very slowly with hardly any passengers when they should be on mainline trains some of which are very crowded because they should be 4 cars instead of 2. There also seems to be a lot of swaps with the 197s at Chester which is very inconvenient for passengers indeed but that’s another story. So nothing has changed the 230s are as bad as ever and costing as much money as ever to run.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Correct the 230 has another swap now during the day so two swaps at Bidston around 1100 and 1530, so the one diagram is split into 3 parts one 230 does the first couple of trips then goes back to depot and another replaces it for a couple of trips then either the original unit comes back out after a cool down and presumably a check of radiators or whatever or a new one comes out if there’s one available. Meanwhile the 197s are plodding up and down very slowly with hardly any passengers when they should be on mainline trains some of which are very crowded because they should be 4 cars instead of 2. There also seems to be a lot of swaps with the 197s at Chester which is very inconvenient for passengers indeed but that’s another story. So nothing has changed the 230s are as bad as ever and costing as much money as ever to run.

Thanks for the info. It is really not much but at least TFW have been proactive to try and prevent the problem before it has happened with the 230’s in their current state. The additional swap is to allow for the cleaning of the filters I’m told.

We will have to wait and see what the >£1m investment on the 230’s to hopefully solve battery overheating and pollen problems, manages to achieve. I seriously hope it means that they can be reliable enough to cover the work with no more need for 197’s on the line.

Before it gets said, yes £1m is a lot of money but still almost certainly ‘cheaper’ then even 1 additional 197 unit.

 

[TDK]

Thanks for the info. It is really not much but at least TFW have been proactive to try and prevent the problem before it has happened with the 230’s in their current state. The additional swap is to allow for the cleaning of the filters I’m told.

We will have to wait and see what the >£1m investment on the 230’s to hopefully solve battery overheating and pollen problems, manages to achieve. I seriously hope it means that they can be reliable enough to cover the work with no more need for 197’s on the line.

Before it gets said, yes £1m is a lot of money but still almost certainly ‘cheaper’ then even 1 additional 197 unit.

A phrase with TFW and proactive in it is comical. Considering TFW need 3 unit diagrams to run a dedicated service and are actually using 3 units for 1 unit diagram certainly isn't proactive but reactive. If TFW were proactive they wouldn't have ordered and purchased outright the 230's that have been an absolute disaster for the borderlands line, the passengers and the tax payer. This project has cost enough money to have ordered an extra 10 197's if you take into account the total cost including all the training, the purchase costs, the fuel road at Birkenhead North, they delay and cancellation costs and the loss of revenue, so, proactive they are certainly not.

 

[Lurcheroo]

A phrase with TFW and proactive in it is comical. Considering TFW need 3 unit diagrams to run a dedicated service and are actually using 3 units for 1 unit diagram certainly isn't proactive but reactive. If TFW were proactive they wouldn't have ordered and purchased outright the 230's that have been an absolute disaster for the borderlands line, the passengers and the tax payer. This project has cost enough money to have ordered an extra 10 197's if you take into account the total cost including all the training, the purchase costs, the fuel road at Birkenhead North, they delay and cancellation costs and the loss of revenue, so, proactive they are certainly not.

I’m beginning to think your a bit thick.
You read something and mange to get the understanding wrong nearly every time.
Or it just seems that you’re trying to always ‘1 up someone’.

I specifically stated that it’s not much. The whole project has been quite the disaster there’s no denying that.
By equal measure, TFW implementing an additional swap (for a unit that was doing nothing and sat at the depot anyway) to prevent a problem before it occurs IS undeniably ‘proactive’.
The fact that more than 1 unit needs to be used daily to cover a single diagram is absolutely reactive to the 230’s problem. But each event is different and can be categorised differently.

I’m with you on that, I dread to think how much the whole 230 debacle has cost and having 197’s in the first place would almost certainly have been a better outcome at a lower cost.

The 230 debate and it’s reason for happening and it’s difficulties have been gone over many many times so I won’t go there again.

Unless you really are struggling for comprehension then the past can not be changed. So we are where we are. So something has to be done to move forward. The choices are, sack the 230’s off and get something else (197’s ? 150’s ? 158’s?)
Or keep going with the 230’s and try to fix them ?
We know that the cost of the planned changes for the 230’s (which may end up be a complete failure, we don’t know yet) is greater than £1million.
A 2 car 197’s base cost is approximately £4.8million so would total about £23.8 million for 5 of them.

And thats why TFW is giving the 230’s another shot.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The 230 debate and it’s reason for happening and it’s difficulties have been gone over many many times so I won’t go there again.

The benefits of hindsight eh !
If only TfW had got Vivarail to prove a prototype unit over the Borderlands route for two or three months before making their purchase. But they didn't and TfW are where they are.

The point is that TfW would not need to acquire five 197s to replace the five 230s, simply because the 197s required would come from the general fleet, so maybe two and a maintenance spare - three in total.

Just needs someone with balls to justify it

 

[Lurcheroo]

The benefits of hindsight eh !
If only TfW had got Vivarail to prove a prototype unit over the Borderlands route for two or three months before making their purchase. But they didn't and TfW are where they are.

The point is that TfW would not need to acquire five 197s to replace the five 230s, simply because the 197s required would come from the general fleet, so maybe two and a maintenance spare - three in total.

Just needs someone with balls to justify it

Yep, ok but again, that’s already been talked over on this thread many times.
Well if the number of 197s is currently suitable for the planned services elsewhere + an allowance on maintenance then you would need at least 4 more to implement TFW’s plan of a half hourly service.

Even if you said 3 + 1 from the existing pool that’s still going to be almost £15m. TFW are already in a financial hole so going for this £1m 230 fix first does make the most sense .

 

[Kite159]

If the 230s operated in South Wales they would have been scrapped by now (similar to how the 769s were sent away), but because it's North Wales then TfW don't care so much

 

[Caaardiff]

If the 230s operated in South Wales they would have been scrapped by now (similar to how the 769s were sent away), but because it's North Wales then TfW don't care so much

The 769s were only ever a temporary fix until the Stadlers arrived. When they did, the 769s went.
The 230s were a longer term project that has gone horribly wrong, but TFW are in too deep with it.
Chester Depot is already maxed out for space with the current order of 197s, taking on more will not only incur unit costs but other costs in setting up alternative maintenance depots for the larger fleet, even if it is only a couple more.

The 45 minute timetable is better than many line in South Wales, and there's more 4-5 car services in North Wales than there is in South Wales.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The 769s were only ever a temporary fix until the Stadlers arrived. When they did, the 769s went.
The 230s were a longer term project that has gone horribly wrong, but TFW are in too deep with it.
Chester Depot is already maxed out for space with the current order of 197s, taking on more will not only incur unit costs but other costs in setting up alternative maintenance depots for the larger fleet, even if it is only a couple more.

The 45 minute timetable is better than many line in South Wales, and there's more 4-5 car services in North Wales than there is in South Wales.

Well said.
I couldn’t quite remember what the deal with the 769’s was.

Yep and if it could go to half hourly eventually then it would be really great.

 

[Steve B]

Since the new timetable started in December, and the way TFW have handled the 230 problems the reliability of the service has become vastly more reliable. As a regular user of the line (but not daily) I haven't had a single train that has been more than 2-3 minutes late when I've got on, and not once have I been late arriving. Most of those journeys have been on the 230s.
Because I have a vested interest (ie. I like to get to where I'm going on time, and I don't want get stuck at Wrexham having missed my connection and having to wait over an hour for the next overcrowded train) I keep and eye on RTT to see how the line is performing. Yes, there have been some major delays recently, one caused by a passenger being taken ill, another by a 197 breaking down and seemingly blocking the line for some time, and another by points failure.
Also noticeable has been when there has been a problem with a train, and it needs taking out of service, the "other" 230 has been used as a replacementm and there have been a couple of times when a 197 has failed early in the day, and been replaced by another 197. Bad news I suppose for the mainline, but shows how much effort TFW are putting into making the service reliable on the borderlands line.
Also I would note that generally there are only 2 230s in passenger service each day, they just swap twice instead of once.
I've only taken the bother to post this to correct the impression given by some on the forum that everything is a complete mess. Yes the situation with the 230s needs sorting, but, from this users point of view, the line now has a better service than it has had in the 30+ years I've been using it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 230s were a longer term project that has gone horribly wrong, but TFW are in too deep with it.

Has any actual time-period ever been officially cited for the Class 230 units when long-term deliberations were taking place?

 

[Peter Sarf]

A phrase with TFW and proactive in it is comical. Considering TFW need 3 unit diagrams to run a dedicated service and are actually using 3 units for 1 unit diagram certainly isn't proactive but reactive. If TFW were proactive they wouldn't have ordered and purchased outright the 230's that have been an absolute disaster for the borderlands line, the passengers and the tax payer. This project has cost enough money to have ordered an extra 10 197's if you take into account the total cost including all the training, the purchase costs, the fuel road at Birkenhead North, they delay and cancellation costs and the loss of revenue, so, proactive they are certainly not.

I think that unless TfW had a working crystal ball then it is not really possible to allege they were not being proactive. The 230s were ordered to fulfil a specific need - a train with good acceleration, not necessarily high speed, ability to be maintained locally, no need to rely on the slightly out of the way and overcrowded Chester depot. They received promises. TfW did not want to lease trains, preferring instead to own them outright. Just as I would opt for buying a home rather than renting as it is cheaper long term. I could call that pro-active.

Hindsight has shown these 230s have been a problem. But then the 197s are not exactly showering themselves with glory as implementation of these is dragging on.

In my book the only way to have done things better was to have ordered more Stadler Flirts and no 230s or 197s. But try justifying the extra cost of those wonderful Flirts.

I am not trying to justify TfW but if you want cheap you get cheap. The thing to watch is buying expensive stuff that turns out to be "cheap" !.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Has any actual time-period ever been officially cited for the Class 230 units when long-term deliberations were taking place?

Not that I’ve heard and thinking about it, I think that’s smart given how things are with the 230’s.
We don’t really want any time pressure put on the project, we just want them sorted so Bidston can have a good reliable service and 197s can be released for mainline duties.

 

[Dan G]

Since the new timetable started in December, and the way TFW have handled the 230 problems the reliability of the service has become vastly more reliable. As a regular user of the line (but not daily) I haven't had a single train that has been more than 2-3 minutes late when I've got on, and not once have I been late arriving. Most of those journeys have been on the 230s.
Because I have a vested interest (ie. I like to get to where I'm going on time, and I don't want get stuck at Wrexham having missed my connection and having to wait over an hour for the next overcrowded train) I keep and eye on RTT to see how the line is performing. Yes, there have been some major delays recently, one caused by a passenger being taken ill, another by a 197 breaking down and seemingly blocking the line for some time, and another by points failure.
Also noticeable has been when there has been a problem with a train, and it needs taking out of service, the "other" 230 has been used as a replacementm and there have been a couple of times when a 197 has failed early in the day, and been replaced by another 197. Bad news I suppose for the mainline, but shows how much effort TFW are putting into making the service reliable on the borderlands line.
Also I would note that generally there are only 2 230s in passenger service each day, they just swap twice instead of once.
I've only taken the bother to post this to correct the impression given by some on the forum that everything is a complete mess. Yes the situation with the 230s needs sorting, but, from this users point of view, the line now has a better service than it has had in the 30+ years I've been using it.

Well said & thank you

 

[Lurcheroo]

I've only taken the bother to post this to correct the impression given by some on the forum that everything is a complete mess. Yes the situation with the 230s needs sorting, but, from this users point of view, the line now has a better service than it has had in the 30+ years I've been using it.

A nice write up that seems very on balance from an actual user. Thank you.

In my book the only way to have done things better was to have ordered more Stadler Flirts and no 230s or 197s. But try justifying the extra cost of those wonderful Flirts.

If you mean just for the borderlands then I agree.

 

[Northerngirl]

I've only ended up on 197s recently, but it does seem that the whole thing is improving for passengers, the swaps aren't an issue now that they are reliably getting to Bidston when they should

 

[CaergwrleKen]

The only reason reliability has improved is because the running times are now far better with an extra 10 or more on certain journeys minutes, nothing to do with the 197s the Sprinters would cope fine. At the end of the day this thread is about 230s or the lack of them. Take today for example, there appears to be an acute shortage of 197s for some reason despite more entering service recently, this has lead to cancellations and short forms today on mainline services and also the complete cancellation of the Blaenau branch all day! Yet 2 197s are being taken off these duties to cover for unavailable Class 230s. Obviously there is no confidence whatsoever in trying to get 2 or 3 of them out all day and we are no nearer to seeing any improvement it would seem. Are these delay and cancellation costs plus the bus replacement all day being added onto the 230 bill?

 

[Lurcheroo]

I've only ended up on 197s recently, but it does seem that the whole thing is improving for passengers, the swaps aren't an issue now that they are reliably getting to Bidston when they should

I was thinking the swap would give the opportunity for the service to Wrexham to go right time if the service to Bidston was late, but I guess you need the train crew to go back !

The only reason reliability has improved is because the running times are now far better with an extra 10 or more on certain journeys minutes, nothing to do with the 197s the Sprinters would cope fine. At the end of the day this thread is about 230s or the lack of them. Take today for example, there appears to be an acute shortage of 197s for some reason despite more entering service recently, this has lead to cancellations and short forms today on mainline services and also the complete cancellation of the Blaenau branch all day! Yet 2 197s are being taken off these duties to cover for unavailable Class 230s. Obviously there is no confidence whatsoever in trying to get 2 or 3 of them out all day and we are no nearer to seeing any improvement it would seem. Are these delay and cancellation costs plus the bus replacement all day being added onto the 230 bill?

I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise to be honest.
But it’s obviously undeniable that 230’s and 197’s (when they’re both working) have better acceleration and braking performance than any sprinter so their ability to recover from small delays is therefor much better.

As you can see above, there’s a programme being deploy which is a thought will fix the 230’s issues, then we may actually see some work a whole day and possibly cover their whole diagrams ? And getting those 2 valuable 197’s free’d up for their intended duties.

Undoubtedly costs of those will be attributed to the 230 project but it won’t change anything.

Edit:
Just wanted to add, it’s being reported on the 197 thread that out of 51 accepted 197’s there will only be 20 available for service tomorrow and with 30 197 sunday diagrams, meaning there will be short forms and possibly cancellations.
Today out 3 out of 5 230’s made it into service those being 007, 009 and 010. Whilst none of them covered more than 1 diagram, the fact all 3 made it out means they’re actually doing better than the 197 fleet.

It would be nice to see if, with the swaps, 2 of the diagrams could be covered by 230’s all 3 may be pushing it though.

 

[eastwestdivide]

First 230 experience - boarded -008 at Wrexham G, took photo, sat down for shuttle to Central and back to Bidston, train cancelled in platform, empty to depot (or somewhere). Oh well, a 197 coming in 45 mins. Time for a coffee.
(Edit after coffee) in fact it ran in the end, was only cancelled between the two Wrexhams.