Best ever train to run on UK mainline (excluding HS1)

[modernrail]

I am just on a class 373 Eurostar fondly recalling days when this train ran from Leeds to London.

The quality of the look, feel and ride just feels miles ahead of anything else I have traveled on in the UK, as did the unrefurbished version when it ran as the White Rose service.

Excluding HS1 services, is this the best train ever to run on the UK mainline?

If it is…. why have other trains fallen short. Is it because this train is designed to do higher speeds or are there other reasons. For instance, the 373 feels to use the available space better with the main overhead luggage rack and the smaller one immediately underneath for coats etc.

 

[DMckduck]

I am just on a class 373 Eurostar fondly recalling days when this train ran from Leeds to London.

The quality of the look, feel and ride just feels miles ahead of anything else I have traveled on in the UK, as did the unrefurbished version when it ran as the White Rose service.

Excluding HS1 services, is this the best train ever to run on the UK mainline?

If it is…. why have other trains fallen short. Is it because this train is designed to do higher speeds or are there other reasons. For instance, the 373 feels to use the available space better with the main overhead luggage rack and the smaller one immediately underneath for coats etc.

It was the flagship of a major cross border/ multi country project that built a tunnel under the sea. So there was little room for getting it wrong. Also designed during a time when it wasn't all about squeezing every penny possible out of a new train making it as cheap as possible ( great thought went into the passenger experience I imagine).

The newer eurostar stock however is much more like the average we have come to expect.

 

[Ksp]

Personally I think class 390 pendolino's are my pick for the best train. They are a great design that aged very well despite being 20+ years old. I know that people might say otherwise because of Avanti's exceeding cancelations and delays, but for a 9-11 car unit running on UK twisted lines at 100mph and being rolled out such a long time ago they are proof that despite having modern gadgets like sensors and computers they are certainly very reliable. I'm not sure if 805's are gonna be able to compete with them as they are simply irreplaceable icon of the WCML for years to come and hopefully will continue to server for few years more. They are also very safe, consider the derailment that happened near Carlisle years ago where only one person died, yet the train bodyshell survived the crash and even after that accident parts could be recovered for Virgin to use.

 

[matchmaker]

The Silver Jubilee, the Coronation, the Coronation Scot?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Excluding HS1 services, is this the best train ever to run on the UK mainline?

"Best", subjectively, could include past rail icons, such as the GWR's Super Saloons:

GWR Super Saloons - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Super Saloons were developed to service boat train traffic from London to Plymouth. Built to the maximum loading gauge to be more opulent than the rival Pullman Company coaches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2024 ==

The Silver Jubilee, the Coronation, the Coronation Scot?

Yes and the "non-stoppers" such as The Flying Scotsman and The Elizabethan. With 1928's introduction of corridor tenders, the F.S. was the first truly non-stop Anglo Scottish express.
The 1937 F.S. set included a hairdressing salon and cocktail bar. Makes today's trolley services seem a bit lame.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The HST

Southern 4Ceps and Eastern Class 309's before refurbishment

 

[Sun Chariot]

The HST

Southern 4Ceps and Eastern Class 309's before refurbishment

The draughty wooden-framed single glazed coach windows. Blinking nightmare!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The draughty wooden-framed single glazed coach windows. Blinking nightmare!

But the bouncy seats.... you never know how good they were until they went....for refurbishment....and got ruined IMHO

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Class 442. Everything the Mk3 stock should have been but wasn't.

Or possibly the International Train which had a 9 window Standard Class coach so alignment was possible, and most of the 442's other features.

 

[Sun Chariot]

But the bouncy seats.... you never know how good they were until they went....for refurbishment....and got ruined IMHO

My favourite seats were on the 119 GRC&W DMUs and the 504 Manchester-Bury EMUs. The former were sumptuous, the latter had ability to "bounce" me right out of them.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Personally I think class 390 pendolino's are my pick for the best train. They are a great design that aged very well despite being 20+ years old. I know that people might say otherwise because of Avanti's exceeding cancelations and delays, but for a 9-11 car unit running on UK twisted lines at 100mph and being rolled out such a long time ago they are proof that despite having modern gadgets like sensors and computers they are certainly very reliable. I'm not sure if 805's are gonna be able to compete with them as they are simply irreplaceable icon of the WCML for years to come and hopefully will continue to server for few years more. They are also very safe, consider the derailment that happened near Carlisle years ago where only one person died, yet the train bodyshell survived the crash and even after that accident parts could be recovered for Virgin to use.

Agreed hands down.

 

[mike57]

Would have to be HST, for me the step change in both comfort and journey time was a combination that hasn't happened since. Yes some thing could have been done better, the doors for example, but they have been the mainstay of inter city services away from the electrified routes for well over 40 years, there are still a few refurbished example about, and the ones we have finished with are finding a second life abroad.

I would also say class 158, yes the air con is rubbish, but overall a 90mph inter regional DMU was badly needed, and they delivered a much needed improvement.

 

[modernrail]

I have a soft spot for many of the trains mentioned above, old and newer. However, put them on a run from Leeds to London, on today’s track and at that line speed, do any of them objectively beat the class 373.

The older examples are lovely, iconic and delicious, but was the ride as good as a 373?

The Pendo’s are solid but the profile of the carriages is just too small to reasonably compete with the 373’s feeling of space. Perhaps not their fault because they need to tilt but objectively, in terms of passenger experience…

The HST was our one moment in being ahead in high speed rail and they were obviously iconic and great, but the seats didn’t come close to the comfort of the 373 and as for the doors…

If you were told you could order one train type that can actually fit our loading gauge, fill the main lines with it, and you had to sit in it for say 5 hours - come on, admit it - you would most like to sit in a 373. Especially if one carriage became a mobile hairdresser/pub/any other plausible fun concept.

Makes you wonder how the HideouslyShort2 design will compare bearing in mind it will need to comply with the same loading gauge.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I agree with your point re: Pendo (I used them weekly for three years - Standard felt claustrophobic and cramped, and First felt underwhelming); and your point re: HST (their original seating meant limboing my 6'6" frame twixt table top and those darned fixed armrests).
My height is probably why I found 373's seats cramped and lacking support in the places I needed it. Their carriage ride, however, I found excellent - even on the old (pre-HS1) route.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Pacers.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Pacers.

Peerless!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Pendo’s are solid but the profile of the carriages is just too small to reasonably compete with the 373’s feeling of space. Perhaps not their fault because they need to tilt but objectively, in terms of passenger experience…

Pendos I don't dislike but don't love either, in particular they're too narrow (so no window-side armrest) and the windows are too small, but I also sometimes get a bit queasy in the dark when my eyes can't see the tilt to reconcile it with what's happening.

When they arrive, I'll be using the 80x wherever possible (which is good, as two of the three services per hour calling at MKC will be 80x, only the Manchester will remain Pendolino).

 

[GWVillager]

There are many ways to approach this question. I think the 373s are probably the most comfortable production trains in British history, and the ones I enjoy riding the most - they are indeed exceptionally smooth and the seats are perfect. I likewise fear for the ride quality of the (partially Hitachi) HS2 trains!

However, are they the best train outright? Probably not, I would echo suggestions of the Class 390, though of course they're not perfect. But for the (most meaningful) question of which train fulfils its role the best, I would say the Class 158. Cheap, comfortable and flexible, they're everything a rural/regional DMU should be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, are they the best train outright? Probably not, I would echo suggestions of the Class 390, though of course they're not perfect. But for the (most meaningful) question of which train fulfils its role the best, I would say the Class 158. Cheap, comfortable and flexible, they're everything a rural/regional DMU should be.

...except working aircon and there being one too many windows/seating bays meaning terrible legroom (though modern thin backed seats also solve the latter).

Best ride of anything that's ever run on the UK rails, though, they glide over bad jointed track as if it was perfect welded rail.

 

[GWVillager]

...except working aircon and there being one too many windows/seating bays meaning terrible legroom (though modern thin backed seats also solve the latter).

Best ride of anything that's ever run on the UK rails, though, they glide over bad jointed track as if it was perfect welded rail.

These are relatively minor gripes, though, and they weren't even particular downsides in their time. A perfect train hasn't been created (yet?).

 

[Bletchleyite]

These are relatively minor gripes, though, and they weren't even particular downsides in their time. A perfect train hasn't been created (yet?).

Lack of legroom isn't a minor gripe, it's really very bad, on a par with 150/2 and close to as bad as 153s. I don't fit any seat on an as-built 158 other than the one by the wheelchair space or a table if nobody is opposite (my knees come very close to reaching the seat base on the other side). The Northern refurb with the ironing boards creates gallons of legroom though! (Shame the thick cushions they've fitted to the ones that didn't get new seats make it worse!)

Legroom is my 100% priority - a train could be perfect in every other way but if I don't fit in any seat I won't like it. It's one reason I really dislike Mk3 stock (HST and LHCS) - the terrible seat design lacks width and causes very poor legroom in what is a very generous pitch - if you fitted modern seats in the same layout it'd be cavernous - hence why I rate the 442 which did exactly that.

 

[eastwestdivide]

But the bouncy seats.... you never know how good they were until they went....for refurbishment....and got ruined IMHO

They (4-CEP etc) only needed bouncy seats to cope with the terrible ride from the track and suspension! Agree that the refurb seats were rock hard by comparison. But there’s no way that basically an electric Mk1 was the best ever train.

 

[43096]

It's one reason I really dislike Mk3 stock (HST and LHCS) - the terrible seat design lacks width

What you mean is is that you are “out of gauge”! One of the advantages to the IC70 design is that it helps prevents incursions into other people’s space.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

They (4-CEP etc) only needed bouncy seats to cope with the terrible ride from the track and suspension! Agree that the refurb seats were rock hard by comparison. But there’s no way that basically an electric Mk1 was the best ever train.

Certainly at the time (1956/1958), the 4CEP (and its buffet version 4BEP) was a major leap forward in terms of design and comfort (amongst other things) but is OT for this thread

 

[norbitonflyer]

Personally I think class 390 pendolino's are my pick for the best train.

They weree a real let-down after the mark 3s they replaced. Felt really cramped.

Branson wanted rail travel to be like air travel. Unfortunately, air travel for the non-business-class majority is far less pleasant than rail travel. But Branson wouldn't know that.

 

[Ken H]

Cl 87 + Mk 3s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They weree a real let-down after the mark 3s they replaced. Felt really cramped.

I'd say much better than the Mk3, as the IC70 is the worst seat to have ever disgraced the UK rail system. Yes, even worse than a collapsed Sophia.

But with the new seats installed they kick the Mk3 firmly into a cocked hat.

 

[xotGD]

A set of Mark 1s with a Deltic on the front.

 

[Trainguy34]

For me it's probably HSTs, IC225s or Class 373s. Would likely include 68s on Chiltern, however haven't tried one yet.

 

[Bevan Price]

Coaching stock - Bulleid main line hauled open or corridor stock -- plenty of legroom, and surely the most comfortable seats ever provided in standard / 2nd. class.
Visual appearance - steam loco.
Performance (UK) Class 86, 87, 90 or 91.